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#26
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 ![]() |
Another thing to remember is that radars are actually tuned. That's right, kids. You need to actually tune the radar to the stuff you're trying to see with it. A wave that goes right through walls will also go right through a person without bouncing back. A wave that returns with people will stop at walls as well. This is also dependent upon the size the the array as to what frequency you can use and how it big an area it can scan at a time so that little handheld radar system with a teeny-tiny emitter/receiver won't be blowing through any walls as it can't emit a wave long enough to not get a return from that door in front of the group and it will only cover a 30-degree cone or so.
EM/Particle physics FTW... |
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#27
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The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
Infiltration will still work against radar sensor.
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#28
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 ![]() |
I like the tuning solution.
The rating on the radar is its tuning value from 1 to 4. 1. Ultra Soft - Ultrasound, Detects breathing, air thickness (Gas, moisture) 2. Soft Targets - People and Critters 3. Hard Targets - Walls, Structures 4. Millimeter Wave Radar - Cyberware & Weapon Scanner Having a radar that gives everything at once should be rather confusing and a lot for a human brain to process at once so for each option added give the character a -1D6 for all physical tests and perception tests due to too much visual info. |
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#29
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Vanilla radar is just soundwaves bounced off of objects; Ultrawideband Radar is the one that penetrates structures. You cannot see through objects with regular vehicle radar, and in fact either the BBB or Arsenal says that you can get enough of static in a wooded area or a crowded mall to make it useless. Also, since they only have a Signal rating of 2, toss in some r3 + wireless-inhibiting paint/wallpaper every now and then.
/win. EDIT: Also, the Smart Jammer is what they were talking about earlier. Get a corp to use a smartjammer on everything but their frequency. |
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#30
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 ![]() |
Psychopipps: Yes, real radar is tuned. But the canon radar sensor is not.
Direradiant: Yes, according to canon, Infiltration works against radar sensors. That's another problem. Although I don't think canon addresses it, I have always presumed Infiltration is not Invisibility (which doesn't work against radar, anyway). Unless the character has a crowd to hide in, or terrain or architecture to conceal himself in, I give heavy negative modifiers. Now, when the person trying to detect you can see through walls, and can see your SMG and three hand grenades under your overcoat, how do you hide? How do the rules make any sense? |
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#31
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Refer to the BBB in the very front. Something about the rules being abstract. That's how.
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#32
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The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
Psychopipps: Yes, real radar is tuned. But the canon radar sensor is not. Direradiant: Yes, according to canon, Infiltration works against radar sensors. That's another problem. Although I don't think canon addresses it, I have always presumed Infiltration is not Invisibility (which doesn't work against radar, anyway). Unless the character has a crowd to hide in, or terrain or architecture to conceal himself in, I give heavy negative modifiers. Now, when the person trying to detect you can see through walls, and can see your SMG and three hand grenades under your overcoat, how do you hide? How do the rules make any sense? Opposed test? |
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#33
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 ![]() |
I assume that you are talking about Ultrawideband Radar, not just regular radar.
QUOTE Ultrawideband Radar: This sensor system functions exactly like radar sensor cyberware (p. 36, Augmentation), using ultrawideband and terahertz radar to see through walls and obstacles and create a three-dimensional map of the area. Ultrawideband radar sensors use the same Visibility modifiers as ultrasound, can penetrate rating x 5 points of cumulative barrier Structure ratings (see p. 157, SR4), and can be used to detect cyberware and weapons in the same manner as millimeterwave radar (see p. 255, SR4). Ultrawideband radar sensors have a Signal rating of 2 and are vulnerable to jamming. Solutions to this thing. Range: It has a set signal rating of 2, which means that it caps out at 100m. Use a bigger battlefield. Jamming: It is vunerable to jamming. ECCM caps out at 6. A rating 8 Area, Directional, or Smart jammer will always knock this thing offline. Rating 2 will take it offline unless the players have ECCM software, and the 'link to run it on. Walls: This thing, at rating 4, which it caps out at, can only see through 20 points worth of structure. Structure is measured in which is 10 cm thick sections. 20 cm of bricks stop this thing dead. Walls 2: It has a set signal rating of 2. Rating 2 Wireless blocking paint costs 40:nuyen: per 30 cubic square meters, and will cut the this thing off, while not inhibiting most good 'Links that much. |
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#34
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 6-March 08 Member No.: 15,746 ![]() |
Walls 2: It has a set signal rating of 2. Rating 2 Wireless blocking paint costs 40:nuyen: per 30 cubic square meters, and will cut the this thing off, while not inhibiting most good 'Links that much. And is very reasonable to have in just about any place since it ensures your home is not overwhelmed by ads (which are generally broadcast at low signal ratings. |
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#35
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The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
Psychopipps: Yes, real radar is tuned. But the canon radar sensor is not. Direradiant: Yes, according to canon, Infiltration works against radar sensors. That's another problem. Although I don't think canon addresses it, I have always presumed Infiltration is not Invisibility (which doesn't work against radar, anyway). Unless the character has a crowd to hide in, or terrain or architecture to conceal himself in, I give heavy negative modifiers. Now, when the person trying to detect you can see through walls, and can see your SMG and three hand grenades under your overcoat, how do you hide? How do the rules make any sense? You can also consider the effects of information overload. Yes, you can now see everything! Cool. Problem. Now you can see everything! (Everything is a LOT of stuff!) Just because you can't imagine a counter doesn't mean there isn't one. The PC did install some cool cyber into their body, they should be able to do something unusual. But it's never the end all and be all, there are always problems, difficulties, counters. The best source of fingering out countermeasures is often to have the PC's figure it out. Send some wideband radar sensing gang of mooks after the team and see what they do to counter it. Is that round metal thing a grenade or a can of soda? Just seeing something doesn't tell you what it is. Is that brightly emitting radiomagnetic Runner going to be incredibly easy to target with a rocket or missile? (oooh shiny! HARM Missiles probably hurt when they bump into you.) That guy shoots through walls, let's not hide behind walls! Mooks aren't stupid, the seeing through walls will work the first time, but they will learn. And maybe the last runner through did the same thing? Isn't this a widely tested available piece of cyber almost anyone can get? Don't treat it like it's never been encountered before. The same thing happens with magical Clairvoyance spells and simple surveillance systems. Hacker can hack the camera to help a teammate target through a barrier. Wideband Radar eyes are not the first time this happens to that poor gang down the street. |
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#36
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 ![]() |
Information overload is a non-issue, I would think. Probably has some kind of fuzzy logic expert suite set up in it which is what gives it...y'know...a rating and stuff.
One thing about the tuning is how it can only cover one band at a time and that a pulse of this type will create a localized interference as it is used that will oscillate between various types of machinery as the frequency "hops". One second it's your holo-trid blocking around the edges, the next it's your commlink connection failing and restarting the download, next it's your printer rebooting randomly, etc. As for the wavelength issue, if the tech suddenly gets magic too, then I want my ganger/sammy to get a belt-fed machinegun that never overheats, runs out of ammo, or needs maintenance of any kind. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all. And I want that bitch RAW, dammit. Infiltration being a skill check. Maybe a test vs. rating of the countermeasure vs. the detector but I don't give a rip if you're a ninja master or not. Prancing around nekid in front of a "detect people" radar system will get you picked up no matter how many dice you toss. |
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#37
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 ![]() |
I can't find any canonical support for the assertion that anti-wireless paint interferes with radar signals. Can anyone cite a page?
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#38
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 ![]() |
I can't find any canonical support for the assertion that anti-wireless paint interferes with radar signals. Can anyone cite a page? It's not there because the paint was described in the BBB before the radar cyberware was in Arsenal. Of course, both a commlink and a radar use wireless signals so it stands to reason... |
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#39
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 ![]() |
I can't find any canonical support for the assertion that anti-wireless paint interferes with radar signals. Can anyone cite a page? Page 256 of your BBB QUOTE Wi-fi -inhibiting paint and wallpaper are commonly used to prevent an internal wireless network from leaking outside of
a building—and to prevent intruders from extending their own networks inside. Wi-fi negation schemes are treated like jammers (p. 321); any Signal rating less than the negating system’s rating cannot extend past the boundary. |
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#40
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
Of course, that means that you can increase the Signal of the sensor and put ECCM on it, too.
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#41
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 9-October 08 Member No.: 16,463 ![]() |
That's his point. He doesn't want to have to throw out a large range of scenarios and opponents because of one cheap bit of cyberware. And I agree with him, having a similar issue in my game. Radar Sense grants a very powerful tactical advantage and a lot of the techniques low-power opponents use to even things up with the Shadowrunners, such as hiding in ambush, get severely hampered by one samurai with a sensor and a decent Perception roll. Having a character that can see through every door and wall changes the game drastically, regardless of whether or not they can shoot through said doors and walls, or not. Khadim. I know that Shadowrun and D&D are very different games and I fucking hate 4th edition D&D but this arguement raises a similar concern in that game that might imply universability of the issue. In 2nd and 3rd (I never played 1st) Edition D&D there was a host of spells to circumvent walls whether you were looking through them, or you were going through them. The most infamous spells were probably Etherealness and Passwall. The issue was that in a game designed around dungeon-diving, knowing exactly what is where and being able to circumvent them through either passing around them, pretty much kills the premise. I think the issue with radar is similar, yes like in D&D there's alot more you can do than move into dungeon/break in facilities for loot/paydata or to rescue the mayor/extract the target. Spells like Passwall and the like force you as a DM to radically change your design, you have to either prime missions for facilities that have every reason to screw over radarites (okay omae, you guys are such hot runners, its time for an Azzie black lab in Tenochtitlan) or start using circumventive measures for dealing with radar people. There's still radar-specific jamming, I'd have to imagine there's something like that and you as the GM have far more authority in introducing content. I think the radar as a beacon for hunting is a good idea, I mean afterall hunting down wireless signals via the track program is essentially the same thing. Radar isn't terrible specific in terms of target identification, if they're using ultrasound that's another thing. If they start killing innocents and getting bad reps with johnsons, nothing brings the heat more than the CFO's daughter getting capped cause she happened to be sneaking out when the runners spray the place down. Its the same reason you don't go hurling grenades too and fro. And if your players have a problem with it, if it fundamentally breaks the game not just for you but in general say "no". |
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#42
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
I think the radar as a beacon for hunting is a good idea, I mean afterall hunting down wireless signals via the track program is essentially the same thing. That's a problem of any active vision, like flashlights and ultrasound. Except there is no reliable way of instantly detecting tetrahertz radar in SR4. Radar isn't terrible specific in terms of target identification, if they're using ultrasound that's another thing. Actually, the through-clothes scanners on airports are detailed enough to raise concerns about privacy because they effectively strip the person naked. Fast-Forward to 2070 and the implanted 'radar' is a vision system with the same precision of an ultrasound vision system. |
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#43
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 9-October 08 Member No.: 16,463 ![]() |
Actually, the through-clothes scanners on airports are detailed enough to raise concerns about privacy because they effectively strip the person naked. Fast-Forward to 2070 and the implanted 'radar' is a vision system with the same precision of an ultrasound vision system. Seriously? Can you tell me what this stuff is called? I'd like to look it up and see if I can apply it to the game. I will say this, I like Shadowrun because of its gritty realism in a lot of respects. The radar thing is two way, I always presume corps have something that runner's don't. They have functionally infinate money. So if I need to create something nullifies radar in order to make a run viable and there are devices that do that IRL or could do that IRL soon, than why not have that in Shadowrun? |
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#44
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
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#45
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 ![]() |
Page 256 of your BBB That's nice but you have to tune a jammer as well. This is why frequency hopping radios are all but impossible to jam. Since we've covered that different waves have different effects the jammer would have to be in nigh-perfect sync with the emitter for the jamming wallpaper/paint/etc to work. Now add that the signal requirements for high compression data are on the upper end of the spectrum to transmit data packets and that radar waves, which only have to bounce back as all of the data is from these returns, are on a much lower end of the spectrum you can see where wi-fi paint vs. radar signals = "Yeah...right". If the signal can blow through thick-ass brick walls, how is wall coverings going to stop it? |
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#46
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 ![]() |
That's nice but you have to tune a jammer as well. This is why frequency hopping radios are all but impossible to jam. Since we've covered that different waves have different effects the jammer would have to be in nigh-perfect sync with the emitter for the jamming wallpaper/paint/etc to work. Now add that the signal requirements for high compression data are on the upper end of the spectrum to transmit data packets and that radar waves, which only have to bounce back as all of the data is from these returns, are on a much lower end of the spectrum you can see where wi-fi paint vs. radar signals = "Yeah...right". If the signal can blow through thick-ass brick walls, how is wall coverings going to stop it? PAGE 52 BBB
THE ABSTRACT NATURE OF RULES |
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#47
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613 ![]() |
PAGE 52 BBB THE ABSTRACT NATURE OF RULES Ahh...the almighty "We have no idea what we're doing so we'll just make this stuff up!" excuse. The problem lies in the fact that while magic is, well...magic, once you get into science you quickly run into people who know just enough to go "WTF?!?" and start wondering how this stuff is supposed to work. Research anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Now, I agree with your point...to a point. That point comes when the description of a piece of gear says, "stops commlink traffic and other wireless networks" magically becomes "stops all possible forms of radiation that can be used to transmit, reflect, and/or discern data in any way, shape, or form regardless of LOS, spectrum, or method." You build certain things to block certain things and those things are limited by slightly more than DevGrp fiat, IMO. I'm just pointing out how this stuff really works. You don't care and I respect that. Someone else might want a bit more detail and less handwaving so my stuff is generally for them. Have a good one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#48
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
It says that it's treated as having a signal rating of 2 for range.... So if it's TREATED as SIGNAL 2, then WIRELESS INHIBITING paper/paint, which blocks SIGNAL RATINGS equal/under the rating, then IT BLOCKS IT.
It's not that hard, Mr. Science. |
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#49
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
It says that it's treated as having a signal rating of 2 for range.... So if it's TREATED as SIGNAL 2, then WIRELESS INHIBITING paper/paint, which blocks SIGNAL RATINGS equal/under the rating, then IT BLOCKS IT. And after upgrading it with Signal 6 and ECCM 6, neither Jammers nor wifi-blocking walls will stop it, as they cap at 10. |
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#50
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Now interestingly enough, ECCM 6 will work, but since the thing is TREATED as having signal 2, and doesn't actually have a wireless signal antenna to upgrade, the actual Signal 6 upgrade wouldn't work.
EDIT: All hail the R8 Area Jammer, though. |
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