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Zen Shooter01
This little item is killing my fun - I'm one centimeter from banning it. It's totally remodeled my games.

First, I apply negative modifiers to Perception for each wall you look through with it, figuring the layered images are confusing. Even so, at least one character in my PC group has it at all times. One of the most basic run formats is for the PCs to go in somewhere and retrieve or destroy something or someone. Now, with the damned radar sensor, they can see where the guards are, where the drones are, where the bombs are, where the doors are, who's got a backup gun in an ankle holster, who's got a synthetic cyberlimb, etc. and so on. It wipes out 75% of my tricks.

Then the Street Samurai with radar sensor starts firing APDS through the walls, and it's all over.

Yes, I can just layer in more guards, more guns, more drones, but a lot of organizations don't have that kind of financing, and from a practical play point of view, it just makes things bigger and more complicated. More guards means the gunfight takes more real time.

It's the rare building indeed with lead-lined walls.
DocTaotsu
Wow... it takes lead to stop radar? Won't something a little more low key than that stop a person mounted radar?

It might not be RAW but if radar is as awesome as you make it sound (I don't have my books on me) I refuse to believe there are no counter measures for it. A radar jammer? That's entirely possible right? Scrambles radar or feeds it false info (by info I mean. BRIGHT SPOTS BRIGHT SPOT!). Fuck i don't know, have the guards carry around grenades full of chaff.
Glyph
Remember that radar is susceptible to jamming (its main weakness), something that will be far more commonly encountered in corporate territory than lead-lined walls. And while a 100 meter range may seem like quite a bit, it can leave a character disadvantaged compared to normal line-of-sight sometimes. Also, they are seeing a simplified representation overlaying their normal vision. Sure, they can see through walls, or tell that someone has a gun in a shoulder rig, or tell that someone has a cyberarm. But can they tell the scientist they are supposed to extract from all of the other people milling around the area, using only radar? No.
TheOOB
Many security set-ups would use radar themselves(radar tends to be good at picking up other radars if set in passive mode), which would make using a radar pretty dangerous. I would also rule that Wi-Fi inhibiting paint(which is incredibly common) also blocks radar waves.

Besides, in a busy cluttered corp enviroment radar wouldn't be all that useful for picking out the guards from the non guards. Aside from that, any of my players who shot through walls at any moving targets are either a)going to hit a non-combatant and get huge notoriety boosts, or b)get a huge corp sec team on their collective asses.
DocTaotsu
I think counter-radar is an excellent idea. If the players are using radar for real time data (as would be helpful for shooting people through walls) they're going to be staking huge signs on their backs that read "Unauthorized radiation emission." which will warrant a team of jammer wielding corps sec to investigate.

TheOOB
There are very few tools a runner can get that a corp cannot. Radars are best for wide open areas or to find large vehicles. That secure corporate facility you are breaking into will at least have one radar detector in the builder, and if they don't they will once they find out a plucky team of runners is breaking into nearby corp facilities and shooting guards through walls via radar.

Once again though, the penalties for using radar to shoot a single target in a cluttered environment would make you so likely to miss in addition to the penalties to shooting through the wall that all you are likely to accomplish is letting everyone know exact ally where you are.
knasser
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Nov 14 2008, 07:03 AM) *
Wow... it takes lead to stop radar? Won't something a little more low key than that stop a person mounted radar?

It might not be RAW but if radar is as awesome as you make it sound (I don't have my books on me) I refuse to believe there are no counter measures for it. A radar jammer? That's entirely possible right? Scrambles radar or feeds it false info (by info I mean. BRIGHT SPOTS BRIGHT SPOT!). Fuck i don't know, have the guards carry around grenades full of chaff.


I'm afraid that the radar sensor is exactly as awesome as Zen Shooter01 makes it sound. It has a range of 100m and penetrates Rating x 5 points of structural material. It uses the same Visibility Modifiers as Ultrasound in the BBB. it ranges from Rating 1-4. A plasterboard internal wall or an internal door is structural rating 3. It's not unreasonable to have brick or plascrete walls however, and these have a structural rating of 11. That takes some of the fun away for Rating 2 or lower but that's doesn't entirely restore game balance and if a PC has a rating 3 or 4 device, then they can look right through reinforced concrete.

A PC in my group has it. Had I had oversight over character design, I would have banned it. (Along with a number of other features of the "I Win" - lives in a squat, has ¥1m worth of cyberware installed, Logic 1" troll). However, I inherited the group and I have a mix of interesting characters and unrealistic psychopaths.

The best you can hope to do with Radar Sensor is to try and work jammers and underground facilities into the game where there is thick earth between passages. But it's a pain in the arse and there's no mistake about that. I'd seriously suggest to ZenShooter01 to just talk to the player and retconn it out. Yes - there are countermeasures to it that a GM can use, but when suddenly security forces all start prepping for the occasional runner with a Radar Sensor and walking round with Jammers constantly on (and presumably communicating by waving at each other across the compound), you both throw out realism and any sense of impartiality with the players.

I'm open to other suggestions from people as to ways to deal with it in-game, though.
knasser
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 14 2008, 07:22 AM) *
Many security set-ups would use radar themselves(radar tends to be good at picking up other radars if set in passive mode)


Like many great ideas, it's obvious once someone else has pointed it out! Anyone using radar is a glowing beacon for any other character or device that uses radar. I like it and will be using it at the first opportunity.

THANK YOU! This is going to change the way the players use radar very much.

Khadim.
The Jopp
A few additions that are both for and against the radar sensor that is both fun and can cripple a good game.

1. Multiple radars on drones can give a good 3D map and give additional targetting data.
2. Walls stop bullets. Not all interior walls are plaster and wood but light concrete or other futuresque material like plascrete or soemthing.

I would say that Interior walls are "Heavy Material" on the barriers table and should give the recipient a +8 Armour - And yes that would be a +4 after APDS bonus have been applied.

Ryu
QUOTE (knasser @ Nov 14 2008, 08:54 AM) *
Like many great ideas, it's obvious once someone else has pointed it out! Anyone using radar is a glowing beacon for any other character or device that uses radar. I like it and will be using it at the first opportunity.

THANK YOU! This is going to change the way the players use radar very much.

Khadim.

Don´t forget to consider the suspicion Mr. Security Commander will have about the source of radar... due to the Arsenal errata on sensors, only specialised medium drones and up will carry it (4 or more sensors, one of those radar = large drone capacity = medium drones with imp. sensor suite only). So don´t use a small weapon when you fire through that wall.

Else: Build European-style. Brick interior walls, concrete carrying structure. Make the image behind solid walls fuzzy - as in threshold 3 for hidden objects. Perception + Radar Rating are not going to be that many dice, so accumulating net hits beyond that will be hard.
Muspellsheimr
I would also like to point out that while the radar will pick up everything, that does not mean the character using it does. Characters must still make Perception Tests while using radar. While this will usually be able to pick up individuals, drones, etc. through walls easily, it does not necessarily confer details, such as what weapons they possess, if they are security or civilian, etc.

Further, Infiltration works normally.
crizh
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 14 2008, 07:22 AM) *
radar tends to be good at picking up other radars if set in passive mode


Assuming the device has a passive mode, which RAW it doesn't, and assuming that the two devices operate on identical or resonant frequencies.

I imagine pin-pointing the location of a low-power spread frequency pulsed dopler radar requires an enormous amount of processing grunt and an extremely accurate map.

Detecting it's use, easy-peasy with the right sensor. Shame there isn't one in any of the source-books.

Actually, in retrospect, if UWB Radar operates in the same frequency band as the Rating 6 Radar in every vehicle on the planet then detecting it's use in all that noise becomes nearly impossible and trying to pin-point it's location futile.
Drogos
Isn't there a selective band jammer? I could reasonably see a secure facility springing for one of those. That and a sensor to detect radar waves makes perfect sense in my view, and it isn't that expensive.
crizh
QUOTE (Drogos @ Nov 14 2008, 12:30 PM) *
Isn't there a selective band jammer? I could reasonably see a secure facility springing for one of those. That and a sensor to detect radar waves makes perfect sense in my view, and it isn't that expensive.



And if UWB uses the same frequencies as vehicle radar?

You get thousands of false-positives on your detector and regularly cause pile-ups on the freeway.
Drogos
I would rule that they don't because normal cars should not be seeing through walls. They are just able to bounce their signal off everything and thus are the vanila radar.
Fuchs
If something is that good, then it stands to reason that it will be commonly used - and commonly defended against. Unless all NPCs, runner and corps alike, are morons.
crizh
QUOTE (Drogos @ Nov 14 2008, 01:01 PM) *
I would rule that they don't because normal cars should not be seeing through walls. They are just able to bounce their signal off everything and thus are the vanila radar.


I'm not so sure that they shouldn't or can't. I'd ask WMS if he were around but will have to make do with Wikipedia for the interim.

Before I go and check consider that vehicle Radar is designed to detect vehicles that almost certainly have a structure rating well in excess of 20 and that is designed to do so through intervening 'soft' obstacles like trees, fences, walls and small buildings.
crizh
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Nov 14 2008, 01:09 PM) *
If something is that good, then it stands to reason that it will be commonly used - and commonly defended against. Unless all NPCs, runner and corps alike, are morons.


I concur.

I don't agree that jammers are the best option however. WiFi inhibiting paint and Faraday Cages are the way to go here.

edit - Faraday Cages would be best because you could start using Radar detectors and they would stop people looking through the walls.

Followed by EMP's to burn out the antenna....
The Jopp
QUOTE (crizh @ Nov 14 2008, 02:12 PM) *
Before I go and check consider that vehicle Radar is designed to detect vehicles that almost certainly have a structure rating well in excess of 20 and that is designed to do so through intervening 'soft' obstacles like trees, fences, walls and small buildings.


I actually don't think they are since they use their sensors to detect pedestrians as well. This could be in addition to the radar a combination of cameras, rangefinders and recognition software and motion detectors though.
ravensoracle
I doubt it is RAW but my job in the Air Force was Electronic Warfare. I don't have my books with me but I would say that from my experience a facility could just as easily use a Jammer of the right frequency range or another radar unit hooked to a ECCM program (Which is esentially a jammer in the right frequency range).

The comm Jammer is performing a similar function so just use it as a basis and say you need to have a jammer that is designed for Radar frequencies instead of communication frequencies.
Zen Shooter01
Thanks to everyone for the input, but I'm afraid the problem remains.

Many of your answers are, "A well-funded corporate facility will..." The problem is, what do street gangs do? Cults? Urban tribes? A lot of them aren't that well funded. I don't want my campaign to be forced into becoming a series of penetrations on corporate research labs because no other target stands a chance against the runners.

The answer that, "In real life, radar can be neutralized with..." is problematic, because that just opens the door to endless arguments with the PCs about real life radar. And it sets the precedent for the PCs to bring real life into every argument. "In real life, automobile tires would..." "In real life, skyscraper HVAC systems are..." I prefer to stay with canon rules whenever I can.

Yes, I do apply Perception modifiers for looking through walls. And certainly, walls provide additional armor. But when someone is blasting 8P -5AP or so at a target that doesn't even know it's in trouble, and so doesn't get the Reaction test to avoid fire and, presuming that the target survives to return fire, take the Blind Fire penalty shooting back, the advantage is decidedly with the combatant with the radar sensor.

Jammers are difficult, because few 6th World outfits are going to want to communicate by waving at each other after having cancelled all their wireless with the jammer they're using against radar. The ray of hope is the smart jammer, ARS 58. But still, the battlefield forever pivots around radar. Who has it, who has the countermeasure.
crizh
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Nov 14 2008, 02:36 PM) *
The problem is, what do street gangs do? Cults? Urban tribes?



Um, nothing? What the heck are street gangs doing putting in counter-measures to well funded Shadowrunners?

Street gangs are characterised by being able and willing to use large numbers and lethal force at the drop of a hat not for being para-military organizations capable of fending of Delta-Force.
ravensoracle
Well I would be labeling that character a distinctive style because of his actions and he may also gain some Noteriety if he is just shooting at bodies thru the walls without knowing exactly what he is shooting at. Yeah he may wipe the floor with a gang or two but he will then have the entire neighbohood of that gang after him because of the collateral damage he caused when he fired at the Average Joe who happpened to be walking nearby carrying a Pred for personal protection. There goes a lot of community support for the group as well as maybe getting them blacklisted by some fixers and Johnsons. Corps are going to be interested in hunting down the group since they are coming into facilities guns blazing without checking targets. That is going to end getting costly to corps soon because of the loss of trained non-combatant manpower.

Yeah the radar can be a great thing but the way they are using it can have some detrimental effects to their reps.
Drogos
Quick question. How many APDS rds does he have? I mean sure, he one shots a bunch of guys, but APDS rds are what 15 nuyen.gif a piece? For gangers, use overwhelming numbers and a little strategy. And when he just figures he'd go to his friendly neighborhood arms dealer, say "Hey man I could only get 15 rds right now. They don't grow on trees you know." I mean, it's not like just because it's in a book they have to have unlimited access to it.
knasser
QUOTE (crizh @ Nov 14 2008, 02:52 PM) *
Um, nothing? What the heck are street gangs doing putting in counter-measures to well funded Shadowrunners?

Street gangs are characterised by being able and willing to use large numbers and lethal force at the drop of a hat not for being para-military organizations capable of fending of Delta-Force.


That's his point. He doesn't want to have to throw out a large range of scenarios and opponents because of one cheap bit of cyberware. And I agree with him, having a similar issue in my game. Radar Sense grants a very powerful tactical advantage and a lot of the techniques low-power opponents use to even things up with the Shadowrunners, such as hiding in ambush, get severely hampered by one samurai with a sensor and a decent Perception roll.

Having a character that can see through every door and wall changes the game drastically, regardless of whether or not they can shoot through said doors and walls, or not.

Khadim.
psychophipps
Another thing to remember is that radars are actually tuned. That's right, kids. You need to actually tune the radar to the stuff you're trying to see with it. A wave that goes right through walls will also go right through a person without bouncing back. A wave that returns with people will stop at walls as well. This is also dependent upon the size the the array as to what frequency you can use and how it big an area it can scan at a time so that little handheld radar system with a teeny-tiny emitter/receiver won't be blowing through any walls as it can't emit a wave long enough to not get a return from that door in front of the group and it will only cover a 30-degree cone or so.

EM/Particle physics FTW...
DireRadiant
Infiltration will still work against radar sensor.
The Jopp
I like the tuning solution.

The rating on the radar is its tuning value from 1 to 4.

1. Ultra Soft - Ultrasound, Detects breathing, air thickness (Gas, moisture)
2. Soft Targets - People and Critters
3. Hard Targets - Walls, Structures
4. Millimeter Wave Radar - Cyberware & Weapon Scanner

Having a radar that gives everything at once should be rather confusing and a lot for a human brain to process at once so for each option added give the character a -1D6 for all physical tests and perception tests due to too much visual info.
Neraph
Vanilla radar is just soundwaves bounced off of objects; Ultrawideband Radar is the one that penetrates structures. You cannot see through objects with regular vehicle radar, and in fact either the BBB or Arsenal says that you can get enough of static in a wooded area or a crowded mall to make it useless. Also, since they only have a Signal rating of 2, toss in some r3 + wireless-inhibiting paint/wallpaper every now and then.

/win.

EDIT: Also, the Smart Jammer is what they were talking about earlier. Get a corp to use a smartjammer on everything but their frequency.
Zen Shooter01
Psychopipps: Yes, real radar is tuned. But the canon radar sensor is not.

Direradiant: Yes, according to canon, Infiltration works against radar sensors. That's another problem. Although I don't think canon addresses it, I have always presumed Infiltration is not Invisibility (which doesn't work against radar, anyway). Unless the character has a crowd to hide in, or terrain or architecture to conceal himself in, I give heavy negative modifiers. Now, when the person trying to detect you can see through walls, and can see your SMG and three hand grenades under your overcoat, how do you hide? How do the rules make any sense?
Neraph
Refer to the BBB in the very front. Something about the rules being abstract. That's how.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Nov 14 2008, 12:37 PM) *
Psychopipps: Yes, real radar is tuned. But the canon radar sensor is not.

Direradiant: Yes, according to canon, Infiltration works against radar sensors. That's another problem. Although I don't think canon addresses it, I have always presumed Infiltration is not Invisibility (which doesn't work against radar, anyway). Unless the character has a crowd to hide in, or terrain or architecture to conceal himself in, I give heavy negative modifiers. Now, when the person trying to detect you can see through walls, and can see your SMG and three hand grenades under your overcoat, how do you hide? How do the rules make any sense?


Opposed test?
Matsci
I assume that you are talking about Ultrawideband Radar, not just regular radar.
QUOTE
Ultrawideband Radar: This sensor system functions exactly like radar sensor cyberware (p. 36, Augmentation), using ultrawideband and terahertz radar to see through walls and obstacles and create a three-dimensional map of the area.
Ultrawideband radar sensors use the same Visibility modifiers as ultrasound, can penetrate rating x 5 points of cumulative
barrier Structure ratings (see p. 157, SR4), and can be used to detect cyberware and weapons in the same manner as millimeterwave radar (see p. 255, SR4). Ultrawideband radar sensors have a Signal rating of 2 and are vulnerable to jamming.


Solutions to this thing.

Range: It has a set signal rating of 2, which means that it caps out at 100m. Use a bigger battlefield.

Jamming: It is vunerable to jamming. ECCM caps out at 6. A rating 8 Area, Directional, or Smart jammer will always knock this thing offline. Rating 2 will take it offline unless the players have ECCM software, and the 'link to run it on.

Walls: This thing, at rating 4, which it caps out at, can only see through 20 points worth of structure. Structure is measured in which is 10 cm thick sections. 20 cm of bricks stop this thing dead.

Walls 2: It has a set signal rating of 2. Rating 2 Wireless blocking paint costs 40:nuyen: per 30 cubic square meters, and will cut the this thing off, while not inhibiting most good 'Links that much.

Drogos
QUOTE (Matsci @ Nov 14 2008, 01:53 PM) *
Walls 2: It has a set signal rating of 2. Rating 2 Wireless blocking paint costs 40:nuyen: per 30 cubic square meters, and will cut the this thing off, while not inhibiting most good 'Links that much.

And is very reasonable to have in just about any place since it ensures your home is not overwhelmed by ads (which are generally broadcast at low signal ratings.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Nov 14 2008, 12:37 PM) *
Psychopipps: Yes, real radar is tuned. But the canon radar sensor is not.

Direradiant: Yes, according to canon, Infiltration works against radar sensors. That's another problem. Although I don't think canon addresses it, I have always presumed Infiltration is not Invisibility (which doesn't work against radar, anyway). Unless the character has a crowd to hide in, or terrain or architecture to conceal himself in, I give heavy negative modifiers. Now, when the person trying to detect you can see through walls, and can see your SMG and three hand grenades under your overcoat, how do you hide? How do the rules make any sense?


You can also consider the effects of information overload.

Yes, you can now see everything! Cool. Problem. Now you can see everything! (Everything is a LOT of stuff!)

Just because you can't imagine a counter doesn't mean there isn't one.

The PC did install some cool cyber into their body, they should be able to do something unusual. But it's never the end all and be all, there are always problems, difficulties, counters. The best source of fingering out countermeasures is often to have the PC's figure it out. Send some wideband radar sensing gang of mooks after the team and see what they do to counter it.

Is that round metal thing a grenade or a can of soda? Just seeing something doesn't tell you what it is.

Is that brightly emitting radiomagnetic Runner going to be incredibly easy to target with a rocket or missile? (oooh shiny! HARM Missiles probably hurt when they bump into you.)

That guy shoots through walls, let's not hide behind walls! Mooks aren't stupid, the seeing through walls will work the first time, but they will learn. And maybe the last runner through did the same thing? Isn't this a widely tested available piece of cyber almost anyone can get? Don't treat it like it's never been encountered before. The same thing happens with magical Clairvoyance spells and simple surveillance systems. Hacker can hack the camera to help a teammate target through a barrier. Wideband Radar eyes are not the first time this happens to that poor gang down the street.
psychophipps
Information overload is a non-issue, I would think. Probably has some kind of fuzzy logic expert suite set up in it which is what gives it...y'know...a rating and stuff.

One thing about the tuning is how it can only cover one band at a time and that a pulse of this type will create a localized interference as it is used that will oscillate between various types of machinery as the frequency "hops". One second it's your holo-trid blocking around the edges, the next it's your commlink connection failing and restarting the download, next it's your printer rebooting randomly, etc.

As for the wavelength issue, if the tech suddenly gets magic too, then I want my ganger/sammy to get a belt-fed machinegun that never overheats, runs out of ammo, or needs maintenance of any kind. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all. And I want that bitch RAW, dammit.

Infiltration being a skill check. Maybe a test vs. rating of the countermeasure vs. the detector but I don't give a rip if you're a ninja master or not. Prancing around nekid in front of a "detect people" radar system will get you picked up no matter how many dice you toss.
Zen Shooter01
I can't find any canonical support for the assertion that anti-wireless paint interferes with radar signals. Can anyone cite a page?
psychophipps
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Nov 14 2008, 02:15 PM) *
I can't find any canonical support for the assertion that anti-wireless paint interferes with radar signals. Can anyone cite a page?


It's not there because the paint was described in the BBB before the radar cyberware was in Arsenal. Of course, both a commlink and a radar use wireless signals so it stands to reason...
Matsci
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Nov 14 2008, 11:15 PM) *
I can't find any canonical support for the assertion that anti-wireless paint interferes with radar signals. Can anyone cite a page?


Page 256 of your BBB

QUOTE
Wi-fi -inhibiting paint and wallpaper are commonly used to prevent an internal wireless network from leaking outside of
a building—and to prevent intruders from extending their own networks inside. Wi-fi negation schemes are treated like jammers (p. 321); any Signal rating less than the negating system€™s rating cannot extend past the boundary.
Rotbart van Dainig
Of course, that means that you can increase the Signal of the sensor and put ECCM on it, too.
Thadeus Bearpaw
QUOTE (knasser @ Nov 14 2008, 09:33 AM) *
That's his point. He doesn't want to have to throw out a large range of scenarios and opponents because of one cheap bit of cyberware. And I agree with him, having a similar issue in my game. Radar Sense grants a very powerful tactical advantage and a lot of the techniques low-power opponents use to even things up with the Shadowrunners, such as hiding in ambush, get severely hampered by one samurai with a sensor and a decent Perception roll.

Having a character that can see through every door and wall changes the game drastically, regardless of whether or not they can shoot through said doors and walls, or not.

Khadim.


I know that Shadowrun and D&D are very different games and I fucking hate 4th edition D&D but this arguement raises a similar concern in that game that might imply universability of the issue.

In 2nd and 3rd (I never played 1st) Edition D&D there was a host of spells to circumvent walls whether you were looking through them, or you were going through them. The most infamous spells were probably Etherealness and Passwall. The issue was that in a game designed around dungeon-diving, knowing exactly what is where and being able to circumvent them through either passing around them, pretty much kills the premise.

I think the issue with radar is similar, yes like in D&D there's alot more you can do than move into dungeon/break in facilities for loot/paydata or to rescue the mayor/extract the target. Spells like Passwall and the like force you as a DM to radically change your design, you have to either prime missions for facilities that have every reason to screw over radarites (okay omae, you guys are such hot runners, its time for an Azzie black lab in Tenochtitlan) or start using circumventive measures for dealing with radar people. There's still radar-specific jamming, I'd have to imagine there's something like that and you as the GM have far more authority in introducing content. I think the radar as a beacon for hunting is a good idea, I mean afterall hunting down wireless signals via the track program is essentially the same thing. Radar isn't terrible specific in terms of target identification, if they're using ultrasound that's another thing. If they start killing innocents and getting bad reps with johnsons, nothing brings the heat more than the CFO's daughter getting capped cause she happened to be sneaking out when the runners spray the place down. Its the same reason you don't go hurling grenades too and fro. And if your players have a problem with it, if it fundamentally breaks the game not just for you but in general say "no".
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 15 2008, 05:07 AM) *
I think the radar as a beacon for hunting is a good idea, I mean afterall hunting down wireless signals via the track program is essentially the same thing.

That's a problem of any active vision, like flashlights and ultrasound. Except there is no reliable way of instantly detecting tetrahertz radar in SR4.
QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 15 2008, 05:07 AM) *
Radar isn't terrible specific in terms of target identification, if they're using ultrasound that's another thing.

Actually, the through-clothes scanners on airports are detailed enough to raise concerns about privacy because they effectively strip the person naked. Fast-Forward to 2070 and the implanted 'radar' is a vision system with the same precision of an ultrasound vision system.
Thadeus Bearpaw
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Nov 14 2008, 09:18 PM) *
Actually, the through-clothes scanners on airports are detailed enough to raise concerns about privacy because they effectively strip the person naked. Fast-Forward to 2070 and the implanted 'radar' is a vision system with the same precision of an ultrasound vision system.


Seriously? Can you tell me what this stuff is called? I'd like to look it up and see if I can apply it to the game.

I will say this, I like Shadowrun because of its gritty realism in a lot of respects. The radar thing is two way, I always presume corps have something that runner's don't. They have functionally infinate money. So if I need to create something nullifies radar in order to make a run viable and there are devices that do that IRL or could do that IRL soon, than why not have that in Shadowrun?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 15 2008, 05:56 AM) *
I'd like to look it up and see if I can apply it to the game.

It already is: It's called Cyberware Scanner for the passive system and Ultrawideband Radar for the active one.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Matsci @ Nov 14 2008, 03:40 PM) *
Page 256 of your BBB


That's nice but you have to tune a jammer as well. This is why frequency hopping radios are all but impossible to jam. Since we've covered that different waves have different effects the jammer would have to be in nigh-perfect sync with the emitter for the jamming wallpaper/paint/etc to work.

Now add that the signal requirements for high compression data are on the upper end of the spectrum to transmit data packets and that radar waves, which only have to bounce back as all of the data is from these returns, are on a much lower end of the spectrum you can see where wi-fi paint vs. radar signals = "Yeah...right". If the signal can blow through thick-ass brick walls, how is wall coverings going to stop it?
Matsci
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Nov 15 2008, 07:45 PM) *
That's nice but you have to tune a jammer as well. This is why frequency hopping radios are all but impossible to jam. Since we've covered that different waves have different effects the jammer would have to be in nigh-perfect sync with the emitter for the jamming wallpaper/paint/etc to work.

Now add that the signal requirements for high compression data are on the upper end of the spectrum to transmit data packets and that radar waves, which only have to bounce back as all of the data is from these returns, are on a much lower end of the spectrum you can see where wi-fi paint vs. radar signals = "Yeah...right". If the signal can blow through thick-ass brick walls, how is wall coverings going to stop it?


PAGE 52 BBB
THE ABSTRACT NATURE OF RULES
psychophipps
QUOTE (Matsci @ Nov 15 2008, 11:20 AM) *

PAGE 52 BBB
THE ABSTRACT NATURE OF RULES


Ahh...the almighty "We have no idea what we're doing so we'll just make this stuff up!" excuse. The problem lies in the fact that while magic is, well...magic, once you get into science you quickly run into people who know just enough to go "WTF?!?" and start wondering how this stuff is supposed to work.

Research anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Now, I agree with your point...to a point. That point comes when the description of a piece of gear says, "stops commlink traffic and other wireless networks" magically becomes "stops all possible forms of radiation that can be used to transmit, reflect, and/or discern data in any way, shape, or form regardless of LOS, spectrum, or method." You build certain things to block certain things and those things are limited by slightly more than DevGrp fiat, IMO.

I'm just pointing out how this stuff really works. You don't care and I respect that. Someone else might want a bit more detail and less handwaving so my stuff is generally for them.

Have a good one. smile.gif
Neraph
It says that it's treated as having a signal rating of 2 for range.... So if it's TREATED as SIGNAL 2, then WIRELESS INHIBITING paper/paint, which blocks SIGNAL RATINGS equal/under the rating, then IT BLOCKS IT.

It's not that hard, Mr. Science.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 16 2008, 06:55 AM) *
It says that it's treated as having a signal rating of 2 for range.... So if it's TREATED as SIGNAL 2, then WIRELESS INHIBITING paper/paint, which blocks SIGNAL RATINGS equal/under the rating, then IT BLOCKS IT.

And after upgrading it with Signal 6 and ECCM 6, neither Jammers nor wifi-blocking walls will stop it, as they cap at 10.
Neraph
Now interestingly enough, ECCM 6 will work, but since the thing is TREATED as having signal 2, and doesn't actually have a wireless signal antenna to upgrade, the actual Signal 6 upgrade wouldn't work.

EDIT: All hail the R8 Area Jammer, though.
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