Don't worry, I'm coating this thread with asbestos.

I've been catching up on a lot of posts I've missed out on because I mainly used to surf here at work, and I am currently enjoying the current U.S. recession (unemployed, boo).

To a lot of the die-hard 3rd and earlier fans on here, Thank you.
I have seen some of you post replies in my question threads and you've been nothing but helpful, encouraging, and intelligent. I know there was a thread not too long ago that began to get a bit flamish, and it made me a sad panda.
I'm a 4th Ed. fan, mainly becuase I just couldn't get a grip on the older systems, that and I loved the idea of a Decker, and it was kinda disheartening not to feel like a part of the Shadowrunning team. They'd be in another room whenever I got to actually do what my character was there to do. That's what really made me happy about the new system, those days were gone.
I will say that I agree with you guys' love for your system. I felt the same way about D&D's switch to 4th Ed. It enraged me...still pretty much does.
I also agree with you on the flavor being different, I still keep the flavor of the old Shadowrun, I love shadowslang personally.
I want you to fully understand that I value your views and opinions, they have helped me tremendously in planning my upcoming game, again thank you.
From what I read about the way things were when the first War of Shadowrun Flame came down, a lot of the 3rd Ed die-hards were really hard on the 4th Ed fans, and I know it was bad on both sides, I'm not saying either side wasn't guilty.
I do hope that things have changed at least somewhat. I know you still don't like the system, that's your right, and you are perfectly justified in it. Just please tell me you guys don't see us as the enemy. I can tell you I certainly don't feel this way about you.
Most of the questions I try to ask are more role-play and flavor or fluff-centric, I'm more of a role-player than a number cruncher. Nothing wrong with either, they're just personal playing styles, IMO. I have players from both sides of that fence and it's always gone smoothly for my group.
I guess what I'm getting at here is there are 4th Ed. players in this forum who are intelligent, respectful players who value your knowledge and what you have to say, can we have a truce on that?
Can we agree that if we treat you with respect you can continue to give us advice based on experience, not to convince us to switch or say how 3rd Ed. did it better, if we promise to do the same?
Let me repeat that I harbor no ill will to you at all, and that I'm very grateful to all the help and ideas you've given and look forward to more in the future.
So how bout it 3rd Ed folks, any examples of us 4th Ed followers that have impressed or made you feel like there is hope for Shadowrun's future player base?
And you 4th Ed. fans, I implore you to give examples of how these guys have helped you rather than hindered you, there are quite a few of them who really do know their s#i+, love'em or not, you gotta at least give them that.

well, as i don't know any really NEW Shadowrun 4 players but only people who switched over FROM SR3 TO SR4, i'd have to say some of the oldtimers, people who have played SR3 longer and earlier than me give me hope that the SR4 player-base will have people that others can learn from.

By the way, nice Posting there O.o

I TRY not to be too bad when it comes to SR3 VS SR4 . . but eh, i play trolls ^^

What about us die-hard 2e fans! I feel that Fanpro upset several of us by not taking concerns about oddities in the 4e mechanics seriously and just saying "there are no flaws with 4e". When white-wolf had the big change they addressed the same issue with care by telling the players what design goals they had so we could chose to agree or disagree with those goals. I feel that was important because while I may disagree with the design goal I at leased can check to see if they met their design goals or not (which I feel they did). Also it didn't help that several of us had played nWOD for a year or more when 4e launched and when we saw nWOD on the surface were very pleased with the simplifications made but as we dove into the system we found that the designers didn't seam to grasp the core nWOD philosophies of simplicity and balance. Fanpro handled our disgruntled natures... poorly. We in turn took it out on 4e fans (for that I am sorry, as I feel it was frustration more than an actual problem with any 4e fan). The metaplot also alienated long time fans by not only updating the 1980s cyberpunk to 2000 ghost in the shell, but by killing major plot lines (not that this had not been done before) that fans had been enjoying. The world was no longer shadowrun to us. Using the name shadowrun seamed silly, why not call it something else? Again fanpro handled the comments poorly. I have high hopes with Catalyst at the helm as they have on a few occasions addressed my concerns politely but 4e at the mechanical core just doesn't work for me (the subsystems are mostly an improvement though) and the metaplot does not inspire me (yet). I will have to wait for 5e to see if it changes. Until then I will continue to enjoy 3e. Yes I am a 2e fan but over time even I converted up, maybe 4e will grab me someday.

I can honestly say I have no idea if a poster is an x-Edition fan or not. I sometimes read that so and so favors one edition or another, but I really have could careless what their favorite edition is. 90% of the time, people are helpful around here, so that's all that matters to me.

Personally, I had more fun playing 1E, but that may have just been the difference in age, gaming experience and the people I played with at the time.

I think it'd go a long way to disregard any edition "divide" unless we are actually talking about something specific in a certain edition. Categorizing people with their favored edition doesn't really seem to add much to any of these discussions.

Yeah, I know one person who's really a great guy who only plays SR4. Also know someone on this forum I get aong well with, who's an SR4-only player. So certainly, there are very decent people among you guys. It'd be very stupid to say otherwise.

Sadly, many other SR4 players I had contact with - primarily among the German fan base, though - weren't exactly inspiring people, but behaved more along the lines of religious fundamentalists.

I jumped from 1st ed. FASA straight to 4th ed. Catalyst and missed all the Fanpro/3rd ed. years in between. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So naturally I bode no "ill-will" to 3rd ed. players if that's their game of choice.

I think kicking the timeline forward a few years to logically allow time for a wireless Matrix (which allows for hacker PCs to actually play with the group) was probably the right thing to do. In my opinion, the weakest part of Shadowrun had always been the decking rules. To me, as someone who played it back in 1988, overall it feels like the same game, just prettier. Could it have been done better or been a smoother transition? Yeah, definitely. But blame that on Fanpro/WizKids/Topps etc. Not the players or the current developers.

I am sorry for those who feel like Fanpro "screwed" them. Players have a right to their anger. I like the game but I'm not 100% thrilled by D&D 4th ed when there's so much usable 3.5 material. But I also think there comes a time when you have to say, "well this is the way it is. Let's just move on because it's not going back to 'the way it was'."

Like any RPG, I find it rather dumb to mock a preferred rules set. Whatever works for the gaming group is what's most important.

Myself I play 4th because that is what everyone wants to play around here. However I have to say 2nd was my favorite. I like a little more punk in my shadowrun than what is there now. Plus I liked the old target number system, the dice pools, the initiative, and skill systems. I just liked it better, however I like 4th better than 3rd. /shrug

I can only imagine that if our old gaming group was still together we would do what we always did. Ignore anything we didn't like. For us there was no nWoD, no 3rd edition SR, there wouldn't be a 4th edition DnD, etc.

I pretty much do 4th Edition exclusively, except for Anchoring (1st Ed. all the way, there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) and Astral/Physical grounding rules.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) olive branch? HA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
ok seriously I think a lot of it comes from if you thought there needed to be a 4th ed. I think we can all agree that decking was badly broken but for us , that is my group the 3rd ed rules worked just fineI think we saw, and htis is just theory, that the request that we buy the core books all over again when we were happy with what we had as too much.

My group adotped the hacking rules and the simplified spirits but otherwise are sticking with what works for us. we're happy and if someone else has fun with 4th ed then that's what works for them and that's good too.

Now where did I put my jellied gasoline?

Seeing as they just got the core books out, I don't think we will be seeing a 5th edition just yet. As a player of 1, 2nd, 3rd (once), and 4th I found all three to be good systems. All had their merits and flaws. The main flaw with 4th is that there are some limits built into the system in terms of power. This power level is also pretty easy to reach for most characters. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd surffered from the massive number of dice pools and 1st and 2nd had issues with the way IPs worked (Street sam, Street Sam, Street Sam, mage?). My experience with 3rd edition was minimal since it was after college and I was busy working

(PS:Yes, I'm another economy victim).

And I had a lot of Contact with SR3 Fundamentalists ,So it evens out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

with an equilizer Dance
Medicineman

Overall I agree with Snow Fox.

Most SR3 people I know don't think "damn those SR4 villains! They've made away with the MacGuffin again!" I'm sure there are some preconceived notions about what the average SR4 player is like ("damn SR4 youngins! With their newfangled music and real curse-words!") But overall the ire has been against Fan Pro, for corrupting the holy book come down from FASA, and of course, those people who choose to tease or fight based on that premise.

I will, however, disagree with this:



Most of the discussions here are affected by rules "divide". In fact, the divide is even wider than between 3rd edition and 1st edition (and certainly wider than 3rd and 2nd, which were almost interchangeable). Every aspect of mechanics is fundamentally different. Even the terminology. I can't say if a pool of 10 is good or bad. I don't know if a neurotic stimulator is a good piece of ware. I can't comment on whether Shadowrun is more trans-humanist or more cyberpunk given the prevalence of non-implanted gear like cyber-contacts. I can't really comment on the current state of politics in Japan, if you're talking SR4. There is very little in regards to culture, equipment, politics or mechanics that I, as an SR3 player, seem to share with an SR4 player. I can discuss things like astral combat - to a point, and how a tank works, or how to add more 80s ninjas (although that discussion seems to have become a little more irrelevant with SR4). I have in fact begun participating LESS since the divide went down, because I can't even tell which threads are relevant to my interests, and odds are high if it's not labelled, it's SR4.

Characters in Shadowrun 4th ed are all running around with Blackberries when in fact your computer should look and act like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdLeEIY97bY&NR=1

Keep the flaming out, please. This isn't a place where you're a mod.

heh, wave a olive branch, be faced by flamethrowers...

I'm just wondering where I'm flaming
but this sounds very familiar to my Ear
Like one of the Users whos been banned in one Forum and warned in another for Trolling, just wondering....Hmmm...

HokaHey
Medicineman

Did I ever tell you that I love you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I know why I don't read german boards. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

If you know so much about trolling, why not just cut it off?

Sorry for the Offtopic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But just 'cause there are a few Trolls over there(I think there are Trolls in every Forum )
You shouldn't shun them ,specially the official German board from Pegasus Games !
They're a Bunch of friendly & helpfull Gents

with a "Back to Topic please" Dance
Medicineman

Yee Gods of Thunder! Wait... Wrong board....

QUOTE (Terms of Service)

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

Personally, I see baiting and a little thread hijacking both going on here. Keep the conversation to the games and the rules and not on the players and various camps....

Here's a tactic: Write your posts sniping at each other then delete them instead of post posting them. You know, like pretending your account is suspended..... Saves me the paperwork that way and you still get to post the on topic posts!!

Well, i am in many forums O.o.
we're an important factor of SR after all!
now girls, play nice okay?

The rules "divide" wasn't so bad for us, because we had already started deviating from SR3 rules towards the SR4 ones as "house" rules well before SR4 came out. I did a lot of statistical analysis, and other than SR4 focusing a lot more on Attributes than SR3 did, and SR4 pools being easier to "get" numerically (since for an SR4 pool, 3 dice statistically equals 1 hit), the game still 'tweaks' in mostly the same ways.

I certainly miss SR3's two-dimensional resolution flexibility (where Target Number is the Y axis and Threshold is the X axis), and the Combat Pool metagame was nice at times.

I will forever miss the skill web and counting down initiative to get your actions, rather than a number of passes. I do not miss rigger adaptation taking an insane amount of your essence.

I mourn the Karma Pool and Combat pool, which always made combat more than just a few rolls; I miss Tir Taingire too, and generally settings that aren't your average sprawl with huge barren areas and gangs with weird names and incredibly complex tags.

I certainly won't miss the connection rules (I instead salute the new ones, workable for the first time) and maneuver score and all that nonsense.

I am disappointed by the hacking rules, which in the end brought back labyrinthine systems like 1st had, and doesn't quite appear balanced and thought through. I'd really have liked to see the Matrix revised, I just don't like how it ended up. Also, I'd prefer riggers and deckers seperate.