Hi there,

it has been discussed multiple times: How do you use grenades in SR in a realistic but yet playable way? (Playable = not instant maiming or killing a PC at once)

I do not like original RAW - sucess means you hit (or with less scatter), target can not avoid damage, just soak it (i.e. automatic 12P(f) damage with a frag grenade and someone who has an average agility and throwing skill)

I don not like adapted RAW - reflexe successes of target reduce successes and lead to higher scatter range (now what is the logic in that)


Our "new" housrule (not yet playtested):
Attack roll is unresisted and determines scatter (or lack of scatter)
Everyone in blast area then makes reflex roll:
For every success target may run/jump/dive 2 meters away as reflexive movement. They end up prone. If they reach cover this way, the cover will shield them from some of the damage. If they do not reach cover, at least they ar a little further away from blast.

We believe that grenades will remain deadly, but the targets at least have a chance ...

Any other suggestions/experiences on how to better handle grenades in the combat rules?

Feedback welcome,

The Pat

grenades tend to cause a lot of collateral damage. so for the most part I can't see goons using them, except under certain circumstances and places (the barrens, for example)

the house rule makes sense to me, but what about minigrenade launchers w/ airburst links, and people who use remotely detonated grenades?

One thing we tried is a little comlex but straddled the line nicely,

Anyone in the blast radius gets to make a surpriise test (ie Reaction + any bonuses they would get normmally) against the following threshold:
Hand grenade/mortar: 2
Launched grenade: 3
Rocket/Missile: 4

assuming a pass we allowed a free action to "drop prone" or to use up your next action to dive for cover (upto half a walk move away)

Seems to balance playability with some common sense, and dosnt allow people with lightning fast refles to sidestep a 20m explosion that was centred a metre away from them

If you're going for realism, you might want to include a coolness-of-head test (willpower?) to make it a targeted dive for cover - I'd imagine that it's pretty common for someone unfamiliar with grenades to instinctually dive for cover, and end up in a more deadly position than necessary.

Pull Pin, Roll/Throw(for Damage)

The logic in the fixed rules from the FAQ or errata or whatnot, is (and I'm only guessing here based on how I interpret it) that the target is actively avoiding being caught in the blast radius by moving further away (which would increase the scatter since the thrower was figuring on the target heading one way and not another) or possibly trying to deflect or knock back the grenade (which would increase the scatter also, though in the sense we think of as grenade scatter). Keep in mind that the characters aren't moving then stopping then moving again; they're moving constantly and not taking turns. The term 'scatter' is just generic for the variance, not the bouncing alone.

I'm not saying that it doesn't have problems, just pointing out that your perception as a player/GM is very different from the way the characters would be looking at things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, if you happen to be able to move until the next initiative pass you can dodge... and get some distance or something between you and the grenade. Grenade in RL are really good motivation weapons. They motivate the opponent to abandon a certain spot.

Why not just add Reaction to the Damange Resistance test?

You can also try to throw the grenade back... which I had a transport of security goons try to do. The players went first and tossed in a neurostun grenade... the npcs tried to pick it up and throw it back out... but didn't have much for a throwing score... it was almost laurel and hardy as they kept trying to toss it out of the vehicle and kept scattering it back in.. those that could grab it that is... the grenade went off inside the vehicle despite their best attempts...

hi hi

If security guards have a habit of throwing back grenades, throw a bunch of fakes in first, they waste their time and expose themselves to throw them back, then you open up on them with automatics.

Heh, I can see it now. Awesome athletics troll sets new record for the 100 meter dash by dropping a grenade behind him in the last few meters... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

With a reaction of 9 and spending his edge of 6, he has a pretty good chance of getting 12m of movement out of this, meaning he can bring himself out of the radius of the grenade he dropped at his feet; he just has to end up prone after that.

There are very few situations were that makes any sense. The damn things are just about sold in stuffer shacks, so why throw a dummy? The issue I'd see is that most of the time you have to be pretty exposed to throw one. They can either shoot you or throw something clever at you while you do this.

Grenades are why people have edge. Use it to augment your damage resistance test, and not only do you get bonus dice, but the rule of six comes into play. Should add at least a couple successes, on average. But more to the point, this is where good tactics come into play. One of the things I love about Shadowrun is that good tactics tend to trump high stats.

hi hi

You can throw grenades from cover and you throw the dummy because when the guard throws it back you don't have to worry about dying. This is for when the guards consistently throw your live grenades back at you, as often happens to us when they're not airburst linked.

Well - yes! If someone has this high a reaction and is willing to spend his (very high) edge on this, he should be able to avoid the grenade blast. I have liite problems with that, especially my players are around reaction 6 and edge 3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

@all - thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

-- The Pat

If you are running into that, why don't you usually just run into the situation where the guards are throwing their own grenades at you instead of waiting for you to throw your grenades at them? Otherwise, what the hell are they doing sticking around if they are that grossly outgunned?

And while you can throw grenades from cover, you can't throw them very far or very accurately. Unless the guards are clustered in the open like a herd of sheep this seems like an ineffectual technique, as they can just do things like step to the other side of the concrete pillar and wait for someone to stick their head up after the big boom.

On our table its 2 steps.
1: Make the throwing test to reduce scatter, determine base damage the chars take.
2: Anyone in the blast area that wasn't surprised can use Reaction (-2) (+ Dodge/Gym if full defence) to reduce the damage by 1 before soak.

This haven't been an issue in my games as of yet, as the PCs have used gl with airburst link, and have never missed the opposed test (attack vs reaction).

But if I had to invent a rule to cover the "where did that grenade end up" -dilemma it would be this:

For every net hit the defender has he can dodge one meter away from the grenade's location (max=1/4 of defenders movement).

In fact with this rule every hit (as opposed to net hit) of the attacker could be used to reduce deviation, as the target could always move from the spot anyway to reduce damage. Although 10P or 12P(f) is dangerous, the damage drops quickly in a few meters.

Any flaws here?

Similar to the houserule I came up with, that our GM adopted:

It works like in the book, but instead of the defender's net hits increasing the scatter of the grenade, it increases their distance from the point of impact. Mainly just a semantic difference, but it works well enough.

I've got the perfect houserule for grenades.
Much like the errata, the grenade can only target an individual, not a location.
Now for defense, the attacked (attackee?) rolls Blunt Weapons+Reaction(2) (for normal grenades), or (4) (for aerodynamic/launched grenades). If successful, he uses his rifle, lead pipe, cyberarm, or nearby dwarf to bat the grenade back at the attacker.

HOME RUN!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This is why a strip of Gecko Tape on the grenade can be useful.

Just make sure you hold the grenade so you don't touch it when throwing.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-karma

I use an inertial trigger on all my thrown grenades. I have an understanding with the GM that I can have it set to recognize/arm iteslf on the sudden lurch of acceleration as it's thrown, and then detonate when it senses impact, so for an extra 20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) I get airburst mechanics for my thrown grenades.

I'm sensing a bad day when your rigger punches it to accelerate away from the crime, and suddenly you realize that you have created the scene from Speed...

Luckily, without the pin pulled, the Greande is not yet armed...

But luckily in SR the entire firing chain is electronic, and wireless enabled!