Hi there,

it has been discussed multiple times: How do you use grenades in SR in a realistic but yet playable way? (Playable = not instant maiming or killing a PC at once)

I do not like original RAW - sucess means you hit (or with less scatter), target can not avoid damage, just soak it (i.e. automatic 12P(f) damage with a frag grenade and someone who has an average agility and throwing skill)

I don not like adapted RAW - reflexe successes of target reduce successes and lead to higher scatter range (now what is the logic in that)


Our "new" housrule (not yet playtested):
Attack roll is unresisted and determines scatter (or lack of scatter)
Everyone in blast area then makes reflex roll:
For every success target may run/jump/dive 2 meters away as reflexive movement. They end up prone. If they reach cover this way, the cover will shield them from some of the damage. If they do not reach cover, at least they ar a little further away from blast.

We believe that grenades will remain deadly, but the targets at least have a chance ...

Any other suggestions/experiences on how to better handle grenades in the combat rules?

Feedback welcome,

The Pat

grenades tend to cause a lot of collateral damage. so for the most part I can't see goons using them, except under certain circumstances and places (the barrens, for example)

the house rule makes sense to me, but what about minigrenade launchers w/ airburst links, and people who use remotely detonated grenades?

One thing we tried is a little comlex but straddled the line nicely,

Anyone in the blast radius gets to make a surpriise test (ie Reaction + any bonuses they would get normmally) against the following threshold:
Hand grenade/mortar: 2
Launched grenade: 3
Rocket/Missile: 4

assuming a pass we allowed a free action to "drop prone" or to use up your next action to dive for cover (upto half a walk move away)

Seems to balance playability with some common sense, and dosnt allow people with lightning fast refles to sidestep a 20m explosion that was centred a metre away from them

If you're going for realism, you might want to include a coolness-of-head test (willpower?) to make it a targeted dive for cover - I'd imagine that it's pretty common for someone unfamiliar with grenades to instinctually dive for cover, and end up in a more deadly position than necessary.

Pull Pin, Roll/Throw(for Damage)

The logic in the fixed rules from the FAQ or errata or whatnot, is (and I'm only guessing here based on how I interpret it) that the target is actively avoiding being caught in the blast radius by moving further away (which would increase the scatter since the thrower was figuring on the target heading one way and not another) or possibly trying to deflect or knock back the grenade (which would increase the scatter also, though in the sense we think of as grenade scatter). Keep in mind that the characters aren't moving then stopping then moving again; they're moving constantly and not taking turns. The term 'scatter' is just generic for the variance, not the bouncing alone.

I'm not saying that it doesn't have problems, just pointing out that your perception as a player/GM is very different from the way the characters would be looking at things.

Well, if you happen to be able to move until the next initiative pass you can dodge... and get some distance or something between you and the grenade. Grenade in RL are really good motivation weapons. They motivate the opponent to abandon a certain spot.

Why not just add Reaction to the Damange Resistance test?

You can also try to throw the grenade back... which I had a transport of security goons try to do. The players went first and tossed in a neurostun grenade... the npcs tried to pick it up and throw it back out... but didn't have much for a throwing score... it was almost laurel and hardy as they kept trying to toss it out of the vehicle and kept scattering it back in.. those that could grab it that is... the grenade went off inside the vehicle despite their best attempts...

hi hi

If security guards have a habit of throwing back grenades, throw a bunch of fakes in first, they waste their time and expose themselves to throw them back, then you open up on them with automatics.

Heh, I can see it now. Awesome athletics troll sets new record for the 100 meter dash by dropping a grenade behind him in the last few meters...

With a reaction of 9 and spending his edge of 6, he has a pretty good chance of getting 12m of movement out of this, meaning he can bring himself out of the radius of the grenade he dropped at his feet; he just has to end up prone after that.

There are very few situations were that makes any sense. The damn things are just about sold in stuffer shacks, so why throw a dummy? The issue I'd see is that most of the time you have to be pretty exposed to throw one. They can either shoot you or throw something clever at you while you do this.

Grenades are why people have edge. Use it to augment your damage resistance test, and not only do you get bonus dice, but the rule of six comes into play. Should add at least a couple successes, on average. But more to the point, this is where good tactics come into play. One of the things I love about Shadowrun is that good tactics tend to trump high stats.

hi hi

You can throw grenades from cover and you throw the dummy because when the guard throws it back you don't have to worry about dying. This is for when the guards consistently throw your live grenades back at you, as often happens to us when they're not airburst linked.

Well - yes! If someone has this high a reaction and is willing to spend his (very high) edge on this, he should be able to avoid the grenade blast. I have liite problems with that, especially my players are around reaction 6 and edge 3

@all - thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

-- The Pat

If you are running into that, why don't you usually just run into the situation where the guards are throwing their own grenades at you instead of waiting for you to throw your grenades at them? Otherwise, what the hell are they doing sticking around if they are that grossly outgunned?

And while you can throw grenades from cover, you can't throw them very far or very accurately. Unless the guards are clustered in the open like a herd of sheep this seems like an ineffectual technique, as they can just do things like step to the other side of the concrete pillar and wait for someone to stick their head up after the big boom.

On our table its 2 steps.
1: Make the throwing test to reduce scatter, determine base damage the chars take.
2: Anyone in the blast area that wasn't surprised can use Reaction (-2) (+ Dodge/Gym if full defence) to reduce the damage by 1 before soak.

This haven't been an issue in my games as of yet, as the PCs have used gl with airburst link, and have never missed the opposed test (attack vs reaction).

But if I had to invent a rule to cover the "where did that grenade end up" -dilemma it would be this:

For every net hit the defender has he can dodge one meter away from the grenade's location (max=1/4 of defenders movement).

In fact with this rule every hit (as opposed to net hit) of the attacker could be used to reduce deviation, as the target could always move from the spot anyway to reduce damage. Although 10P or 12P(f) is dangerous, the damage drops quickly in a few meters.

Any flaws here?

Similar to the houserule I came up with, that our GM adopted:

It works like in the book, but instead of the defender's net hits increasing the scatter of the grenade, it increases their distance from the point of impact. Mainly just a semantic difference, but it works well enough.

I've got the perfect houserule for grenades.
Much like the errata, the grenade can only target an individual, not a location.
Now for defense, the attacked (attackee?) rolls Blunt Weapons+Reaction(2) (for normal grenades), or (4) (for aerodynamic/launched grenades). If successful, he uses his rifle, lead pipe, cyberarm, or nearby dwarf to bat the grenade back at the attacker.

HOME RUN!

This is why a strip of Gecko Tape on the grenade can be useful.

Just make sure you hold the grenade so you don't touch it when throwing.





-karma

I use an inertial trigger on all my thrown grenades. I have an understanding with the GM that I can have it set to recognize/arm iteslf on the sudden lurch of acceleration as it's thrown, and then detonate when it senses impact, so for an extra 20 I get airburst mechanics for my thrown grenades.

I'm sensing a bad day when your rigger punches it to accelerate away from the crime, and suddenly you realize that you have created the scene from Speed...

Luckily, without the pin pulled, the Greande is not yet armed...

But luckily in SR the entire firing chain is electronic, and wireless enabled!

You want your grenades wireless enabled?! You poor dead bastard. New item to add to the "Dirty Hacker Tricks" thread...

only if he's dumb enough to have them made without hardware interlocks

Yeah, the ol safety pin is there for a reason.





-karma

Hey, *I* am not the one who said they replaced the standard arming mechanism (pull pin) with a "new and improved" inertial arming system. I just pointed out the flaw in the plan.

Although you could hack the settings on the accelerometer so that, after the pin has been removed, the grenade detonates when it first detects movement rather than waiting for the deceleration at the other end.

A wireless system to prevent a grenade you launched from exploding too near you might be nifty.

Though I suppose that could be hacked as well. I guess it's only good if your opponent isn't aware of it.



-karma

No, he ADDED an inertial arming system. He has to pull pin and Throw to arm grenade.

Are there any rules for flechette ammo for grenade launchers?

Fragmentation granades?

I think he meens something like beehive ammunition, or canister shot. A 40mm shotgun shell, as it were.

hi hi

When I hear the words "flechette ammo for grenade launchers," I picture a bundle of 50 or so long, hollow metal cylinders filled with high explosives and tipped with impact triggers.

Actually, I've used the "buckshot" rounds for the 40mm M203 grenade launcher in real life. Just to give you an idea, you aim at a persons feet and the kick will make your shot hit them in the chest.

You got it in one, so far I've yet to find rules for this in any version of SR.

I've tried canister shot also, I agree that it tends to have a strong kick, but then again, it wasn't designed to be aimed, more of area effect weapon type of thing.

well seeing as modern mini grenade launchers are leaning towards somewhere in the 20mm range, and 12ga shotgun shells are about that size, and that adapters like THIS don't look terribly difficult to manufacture... I'd just use the existing shotgun rules and range chart.

it would beat the crap out of the barrel from a technical standpoint, but this IS SHAAADOWRUUUUN.

/kicks a man off a cliff.

^
|

What he said. (My GM.) Also, the inertial trigger is hardwired--no wireless.

Christ, I don't even keep the wireless enabled on my fragging commlink when I can help it.

Damn subversives....

Damn straight.

You are fragging right when you are on a 'run; but for everyday life I would suggest to use two comlinks, one "legit" comlink that you use for normal life (part of your disguise, made to be as unremarkable as possible), and another "real" comlink for buisness purpouses that runs silent (shamelessly stolen from Runner Companion).

This is pretty much a mandatory requirement for technomancers. Nobody likes being the odd man out picking up AROs and stuff without any kind of commlink. Makes people (cops)... itchy.

Two words: Test Subject.

Has anyone used an advanced safety system with grenades, so that they won't detonate if there are friendlies in the radius? It wouldn't even need to be "wireless enabled", just allow it to detect RFIDs.

Also, why is everyone so afraid of wireless enabled grenades? If the wireless only turns on when you pull the pin, and the grenade runs in hidden mode, I don't see any hacker having a chance to locate the grenade and then hack in and edit the grenade before the characters next combat turn. Am I wrong?

A hacker in full VR could get 6 initiative passes by the time that grenade blew up.

Worse, only having the wireless active when the pin is pulled is dumb, as you can't program it without having a live grenade in your hand. So they all have the same factory default login and password....

It's just intensely stupid.

Login Name: Duck
Password: Cover

I just thought of something that I almost tried with the Sammy sam sam I build for the 800 point thread (an Agility 15 crazy man El'ves Special Forces Gunbunny/Sniper/Scout from hellz) and it has a direct relation to grenades.

Has anyone taken one of the grenade launchers (That Smartlinked, 20 round drum one from Arc would work great) and give it the 'Firing modification' so that it shoots burst or full auto? With E-Firing (using up all the Mod slots), a barrel mounted Gas-Vent 3, Shock Pad, Fore Grip and Sling you could get 7 points of recoil comp! Just think, you could give covering fire... with frag grenades!

Wonder how the damage would work for that. At first I was thinking just use the normal burst fire rules. However, they don't really work well for area effect explosives. Maybe you could use them burst/auto rules for damage, while increasing the Meters in 'Damage Reduction @ Meter" to the number of grenades fired for a wide burst and half the grenades fired for a narrow burst.

IE: You fire a long burst of "-7 DP @ Meter" grenades. If it was wide, it changes to "-7 DP @ 7 Meters" (or "-1 DP @ Meter") and gives the target a -5 on dodging. If it is narrow, it changes to "-7 DP @ 4 Meters" (I'd say "-2 DP @ Meter") and gives +5 DV.