As hobgoblin pointed out, and cleared up by one of the writers in the past (name slips my mind at the moment), the bonus DV from autofire does not add in when comparing it to armor for type of damage done or overcoming hardened armor.

Modified DV includes base DV+success's on the hit +any ammo mod's. NOT including multiple rounds fired.

Hmm. Another point our group has missed. That spot right there at the top of 143 is easily overlooked.

I concede the point and will inform the GM.

S&S rounds on the other hand, being elemental damage, work damn well against spirits.

Stick and Shock are overpowered. I'm not even sure if the GM would let us buy them.

Tasers work too, along with Stun Batons. Their still electrical elemental damage.

True. Though the spirits we fought we didn't know were coming.

A possible solution is making them as (Damage: --S(e) AP: -half) instead of (Damage: 6S(e) AP: -half) based on the assumption that smaller rounds have titnier (and so weaker) capacitors than bigger ones; so that an holdout and light pistols rounds would have a damage code of 4S(e) -half AP instead of instead of 6S(e) -half AP, the heavy pistols and SMG would have 5S(e) -half AP, assault rifles would have 6S(e) -half AP and shotguns would have 7S(e) -half AP (note: shotguns S&S are slugs not shots).
It probably won't solve the problem but will reduce it.

That's a good idea. So noted in the book for future game use.

I was going to be changing them to 4S(e), but I think I like your solution more. I will be using that instead in my upcoming game.


Edit: I am also changing the damage tracks into a single track, similar to how World of Darkness does it.
8 + (1/2) Body; Willpower Overflow
If your Damage Track is filled with Physical damage, you are unconscious. If your Overflow Track is filled with Physical damage, you are dead. If your Overflow Track is filled with Stun damage, you are unconscious, & all additional Stun damage instead converts an equal amount of existing Stun damage to Physical damage. Physical damage is always tracked in front of Stun damage.

This helps to solve the issue as well; Stun damage is always less dangerous this way. This also solves some problems with Overcasting, among other things, & simply makes more sense.

Just as well as against all other targets, not better. The spirit still gets its armor. It may be elemental but it is not magic. The spirit's armor is then halved as normal.

Just to avoid confusion.

Halving their armor works damn fine against 'Hardened' armor. A decent roll to overcome their lowered armor, pulse the damage from a full auto spray, will put down some very nasty spirits with one long burst.

...That works out to be exactly the same as it is now, only more complicated. Your "healthy, but taking stun, to dead" time is the same (except if your willpower and body are vastly different values).

The reason the physical overflow is based on body is that if you're healthy you bleed out slower, rather than because your strong willed (though I will admit that a strong willed person "just won't die").

The only difference is that the die pool penalties: they'll get larger. 2 stun + 2 physical is -0 dice right now (-1 under your system), 5 stun and 5 physical is -2 dice (-3 under yours) and the player is conscious (and unconscious in yours).

Actually, it is vastly different from how it works now. Try it out & see - having a single track makes far more sense, works better, & makes Stun less dangerous. It is a bit more complicated, but worth it. A Troll can no longer be knocked out with a mere 9 Stun, the mages will be hesitant to Overcast for Physical Drain, Stick n Shock is not as obscenely powerful, Stun spells are no longer more efficient for less Drain, & the samurai will not be stripping off his armor to stay conscious.


A small example of how it works:
3 Body; 3 Will
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] ( ) ( )
( )

5 Stun Damage (conscious)
[/] [/] [/]
[/] [/] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] ( ) ( )
( )

+ 6 Physical Damage (conscious)
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) ( )
( )

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious. Lets go with 3 Physical damage.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] (/) (/)
(/) /

The last point of Stun damage is in excess of the Overflow track, so converts existing Stun to Physical, & looks like this.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] (/) (/)
(/)

At this point, 3 more damage (Stun) will kill him. Physical is effectively 2 Stun (track Physical, then converts existing Stun now over the Overflow). Lets go back 2 steps.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) ( )
( )

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious. This time we will do 3 Stun damage.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) (/)
(/) /

The last point of Stun is in excess of the Overflow track, & thus converts a point of existing Stun to Physical instead.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [/] [/]
[/] (/) (/)
(/)

Now, 3 Physical or 6 Stun will kill him.

Conversely


Uh oh. I hit a spot where adding in 2 damage of either both leave the target conscious, thus making the existing system vastly less dangerous than the White Wolf system.

Personally I prefer the Blue Planet system: you don't have a damage track per say. More damage induces more and more die pool penalties, just like the SR system but....there's no defined point when you die. A character is dead when the GM (for NPCs) or the player decide that it is impossible for the character to perform any task.

I never said it was designed to make damage less dangerous. I sad it was designed to make Stun less dangerous. It makes far more sense, & does what it is intended to very well. The two separate damage tracks in Shadowrun is by far one of the worst aspects of the system.

It doesn't make stun less dangerous unless the character has a higher Will than Body. When Body is higher than Will it makes stun MORE dangerous.

For example:

Body 8, Will 2

Current system:

8 + 4 phys, 8 + 1 stun tracks (total 21 boxes of stun to kill, not counting Bleeding Out which is another 8 boxes, total 29)

Your system:

8 + 4 boxes doubled, 2 overflow (24 + 2, 26 to kill)

Body 2, Will 8

Existing:

8 + 1 P, 8 + 4 S

21 + 2 = 23

Yours:

8 + 1

(8+1)*2 + 8 = 26

It's a difference of 3 boxes in one direction or the other. All it means is that you have characters who are equally likely to die from stun because of high Will or high Body, it doesn't mean that everyone benefits. 90% of characters are going to see much shorter lives due to the fact that during a firefight you tend to take at least some of each kind of damage (my last fight had me with 4 physical and 5 stun).

You fail to understand the point - I do not give a shit about the RAW damage system. It is crap. When talking about a house rule, nothing I fucking say is about RAW unless I specifically state otherwise.

Nothing I have said has anything to do with RAW. In my system, Stun damage is significantly less dangerous.

In which case:

Less dangerous than what? Less dangerous than Physical/Lethal damage? (Which, it already is)

That would seem to increase the overall lethality of the system .......... but it's quite interesting.
When you have tested this houserule tell us how it did fare.

I wonder if we Dumpshockers should create an archive of all the houserules we device (along with discussions about how well they work) for everyone's benefit; maybe it could help the devs into improving the system.

Which, it already is not. In most situations, the Physical track will at least equal the Stun track, meaning taking them out through Stun is at least as fast. Methods for inflicting Stun damage are nearly universally better than methods for inflicting Physical damage; in addition, Physical damage tends to become Stun from armor conversion. And when you go down in combat, you are just as dead as if it was Physical - in other words, the overflow will generally not be enough to kill you outright, which means you are in the hands of your group either way.

By RAW, Stun damage is very much more dangerous in the vast majority of situations.

Then I'll repeat myself:

Dead is dead, all you've done is shorten the track.

Though the Stun track is usually shorter than the Physical track, there is a chance that the one who knocked you out will be content to leave it at that, and not finish off your comatose body. In that respect, it is in the character's favour to have separate Stun and Physical tracks.

I should also note that my GM likes the particular fact that one good stunbolt (or a short burst of Stick and Shock) will take out a Troll.