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Prime Mover
Ok I know this has to be here somewhere but my searches are bringing up dozens of posts that don't answer the question. Please link relevant discussion if you know title. P&T

Ok for arguments sake I have 4 points of hardened armor and 4 points of regular armor if the DV is higher then 4 do I no longer consider any armor hardened?

Edit: Question thats come up, if my 4 pnts of regular armor reduce the modified damage below 4 DV wouldn't the hardened armor then stop it?
raggedhalo
If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular then if the Power is 4 or less, you take no damage; 5 or more, you take Physical.

If you had 4 points of Hardened and 8 points of regular, then a Power of 1-4 causes you no damage, 5-8 causes Stun and 9+ causes Physical.

Edit: In SR4, armour doesn't reduce the power of incoming damage. That's from previous editions.
Prime Mover
Thats pretty much how I've been running it.
raggedhalo
I forgot to mention, though:

If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular, you're rolling Body + 8 to resist damage. In my second example, Body + 12.
Kev
QUOTE (raggedhalo @ Feb 7 2009, 09:20 AM) *
I forgot to mention, though:

If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular, you're rolling Body + 8 to resist damage. In my second example, Body + 12.


Actually, by BBB you'd be rolling 4+Body (for your first example) or 8+Body (for your second example) to resist, since only the higher armor would apply. It's odd how armor stacking works in SR4, though. Technically, the highest of the two armors would apply (though both count for encumberance), which would leave the hardened armor out of it.

But that having been said, your rules make sense so I'd stick with 'em. 'Cept for the 12+Body roll.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (raggedhalo @ Feb 7 2009, 07:15 AM) *
If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular then if the Power is 4 or less, you take no damage; 5 or more, you take Physical.

Incorrect.

4 Hardened Armor, 4 Armor:
Damage 0 - 4; resist nothing
Damage 5 - 8; resist Stun
Damage > 8; resist Physical
Kev
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 7 2009, 04:05 PM) *
Incorrect.

4 Hardened Armor, 4 Armor:
Damage 0 - 4; resist nothing
Damage 5 - 8; resist Stun
Damage > 8; resist Physical


Hardened armor stacks?
raggedhalo
@Muspellsheimr:

I remember reading dev posts on this board explaining it the way I did.

@Kev:

Nup. If, for example, you're possessed by a spirit (the only real way I know of for a PC to get hardened armour) then it stacks with worn armour.
Red-ROM
Forgive my ignorance, but where is this hardened armor you speak of ?
hobgoblin
arsenal, military armor most likely...

or maybe i spoke too soon. i checked arsenal, and i cant find any bit of text that says military body armor is hardened.

but i found a bit of text that said it could not be worn with other armor...
raggedhalo
Hardened armour generally comes from one of two sources:

1. A vehicle's armour is hardened. Passengers inside the vehicle who are shot at get this protection in addition to their own worn armour.

2. Armour granted by the critter power Immunity to Normal Weapons is hardened. PCs generally get this when they are possessed by a spirit. It also stacks with worn armour.
Stahlseele
and there'S those surge skin armor things that count as hardened armor right? Stone-Skin at least?
Draco18s
Of if you're a Drake (Runner's Companion) and manage to somehow get outfitted with equipment-armor.

The way I plan on suggesting that be done to my GM (because it does make sense) is to treat them as layers:

If the damage is less than worn armor, stun. If not it's physical. Apply worn armor. If the remainder is less than natural armor, nothing. If not, whatever it was before.

Ex. 1, if a drake (4/4 hardened armor) wearing flak-barding (10/8 unhardened armor) gets shot and has to resist 11 damage. Roll the 10 dice (4 successes). That leaves 6 damage against 4 armor -> Physical damage (11 > 10 & 6 > 4)

Ex. 2, drake gets shot and has to resist 6 damage. Rolls 10 dice, 3 successes, leaving 3 damage against 4 armor -> nothing (3 < 4).

Ex. 3, drake gets shot and has to resist 8 damage. Roll 10 dice, 2 success leaving 6 damage against 4 armor -> Stun damage (8 < 10 and 6 > 4).

There's simply no way for a critter (such as a drake) to take 4 damage before armor is applied in order for it to be ignored (instead of stun). Even as an adept taking the Mystic Armor power (which isn't the same as the critter power) it takes a bit before you actually have armor high enough to matter (about 3 full magic) and even then you're squishier as a drake than a human, that same 3 magic gives you +6 armor in both forms (16 when wearing a flak jacket, 16 normal armor is nothing to sneeze at). I'd leave it up to my GM to decide if the adept power armor (or mage armor) applies to the first test or the second (does it augment the hardened armor or not).
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (raggedhalo @ Feb 7 2009, 11:28 PM) *
1. A vehicle's armour is hardened. Passengers inside the vehicle who are shot at get this protection in addition to their own worn armour.

IIRC, vehicle armour isn't hardened. It's just that Vehicles and Drones don't have stun tracks, so they don't take any damage if the attack has less damage than their armour rating (because that converts physical to stun). Complex, yeah. It's the kind of non-intuitive technicality that I like, though.
hobgoblin
as a possible shorthand, if its below the rating of the haardened armor, its not going thu. if its above, its checked against the highest armor for its damage type to see what happens.
Draco18s
Except when the hardened armor value is so low that nothing could ever do that little damage (find a way to do 4P damage).
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 7 2009, 07:18 PM) *
as a possible shorthand, if its below the rating of the haardened armor, its not going thu. if its above, its checked against the highest armor for its damage type to see what happens.

If it is below the Hardened value, it does no damage. If it is above the Hardened value, it is checked against the total Armor Value to determine if it is Physical or Stun.

Hardened & Normal armor stack. Normal & Normal armor usually do not stack (exceptions are specified in their descriptions), as well as Hardened & Hardened.
AllTheNothing
In my opinion the matter is best handled with the usual damage resistance test, if the final damage is higher than the total armor rating it's physical (unless it was stun to begin with), if it's equal or lower than the total armor rating but higher than the hardened portion it's stun, if the final damage is equal or lower than the hardened portion it does nothing.

For example an ork western drake (body: 6 base + 4 drake) wearing a custom urban explorer jumpsuit (10/10 total armor of which 4/4 hardened) is shot with a predator loaded with APDS rounds (5P -5AP, 2 net hits on the attack test), he/she must make a Body + Armor(modified) (10 + 5) vs a treshold of 7; if he rolls a single hit or less he takes physical (7-1=6, 6>5), if he rolls 2 hits he takes five (och) points of stun damage (7-2=5, 5>4), if he rolls 3 or more hits (or just buyes them) he takes no damage at all (7-3=4).
hobgoblin
i thought that armor turned damage into stun (or ignored it in case of hardened) based on the base damage of the weapon, not the final outcome of the attack test.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 8 2009, 11:57 AM) *
If it is below the Hardened value, it does no damage. If it is above the Hardened value, it is checked against the total Armor Value to determine if it is Physical or Stun.

Hardened & Normal armor stack. Normal & Normal armor usually do not stack (exceptions are specified in their descriptions), as well as Hardened & Hardened.

Armors intended as a class wearable objects usualy doesn't stack among themselves (but stack for determing the encumbrance), but armor intended as rating do, cyber/bio-ware that grant armor bonus does stack with armor warn and probably doesn't count toward the armor encumbrance (it's part of the body), magical effects stack and don't produce encumbrance and than there is AltSkin (with armor option) that does stack as well, but it's not stated if it adds to the encumbrance or not (I would rule not, it becomes one with the skin becoming more than anything some "natural" armor; it's also expensive and lasts only 24 hours, it doesn't need other downsides as well).
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 8 2009, 05:18 PM) *
i thought that armor turned damage into stun (or ignored it in case of hardened) based on the base damage of the weapon, not the final outcome of the attack test.

I checked and you are right, the type of damage is determined comparing the Base Damage + Net Hits to Armor - AP; the hardened armor of a drake result pretty useless.
It also mean that a succesfull Ares Predator shot is potentialy enough to harm a force 3 spirit (5 + net hits > 6 - 1), and a Warhawk loaded with APDS could harm a force 6 spirit (6 + net hits > 12 - 6).
Draco18s
And the SMG in Arsenal (Ingram SuperMach 100) that comes already High Velocity is enough to kill outright a force 8 spirit with a full auto (narrow). Or very nearly. I watched it happen in a game two weeks ago (The spirit had taking maybe a box of damage from a grenade, then took the High Velocity shot--I forget if it was a long burst or a full auto, either way, the character was splitting his large dice pool between two guns and two targets--leaving it with only 1 or 2 boxes left).

But then, a full auto for damage from a high velocity weapon should just kill people:

4 + 11 + net hits.

That's 15+ which is enough to overcome the force 8 spirits immunity (16 hardened armor) provided that you hit.

QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Feb 8 2009, 12:05 PM) *
the hardened armor of a drake result pretty useless.


Yes. And even in the example used previously (the orc western drake), you're assuming that a drake in dracoform can wear armor. Not that the rules state that they can't, but it'd have to be custom tailored. The rules are very lacking with respect to what happens to humanoid armor when a shapshifter returns to animal form (or a drake shifts to dracoform). It's annoying. If drakes can't have versatile armor for both forms, then the 4/4 Hardened is less than useless (it's draining BP). If they do have the armor, then how does it stack? 4/4 Hardened + 6/6 normal -> 10/10 "normal" unless you somehow take less than 5 damage? Which we've already determined is impossible, unless the paraplegic technomancer is punching you.

Heck, it's not even useful against another drake. Assuming a drake has 3 strength or better, their claw/bite damage is 4 or better, negating the "hardness" of their scales.
Magus
ITNW is not affected by the DV for burst or FA. Base DV only.
Draco18s
QUOTE
Hardened Armor
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always

Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed
the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration)
, then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.

Immunity
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating� equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened� protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.

Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept
or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.


See bold.

Modified Damage Value (Base + Burst + Net Hits) does not exceed Modified Armor Value (Armor + AP), then nothing happens.
hobgoblin
try top of p143, SR4/BBB...
InfinityzeN
As hobgoblin pointed out, and cleared up by one of the writers in the past (name slips my mind at the moment), the bonus DV from autofire does not add in when comparing it to armor for type of damage done or overcoming hardened armor.
Prime Mover
Modified DV includes base DV+success's on the hit +any ammo mod's. NOT including multiple rounds fired.
Draco18s
Hmm. Another point our group has missed. That spot right there at the top of 143 is easily overlooked.

I concede the point and will inform the GM.
InfinityzeN
S&S rounds on the other hand, being elemental damage, work damn well against spirits.
Draco18s
Stick and Shock are overpowered. I'm not even sure if the GM would let us buy them.
InfinityzeN
Tasers work too, along with Stun Batons. Their still electrical elemental damage.
Draco18s
True. Though the spirits we fought we didn't know were coming.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 8 2009, 08:45 PM) *
Stick and Shock are overpowered. I'm not even sure if the GM would let us buy them.

A possible solution is making them as (Damage: --S(e) AP: -half) instead of (Damage: 6S(e) AP: -half) based on the assumption that smaller rounds have titnier (and so weaker) capacitors than bigger ones; so that an holdout and light pistols rounds would have a damage code of 4S(e) -half AP instead of instead of 6S(e) -half AP, the heavy pistols and SMG would have 5S(e) -half AP, assault rifles would have 6S(e) -half AP and shotguns would have 7S(e) -half AP (note: shotguns S&S are slugs not shots).
It probably won't solve the problem but will reduce it.
InfinityzeN
That's a good idea. So noted in the book for future game use.
Muspellsheimr
I was going to be changing them to 4S(e), but I think I like your solution more. I will be using that instead in my upcoming game.


Edit: I am also changing the damage tracks into a single track, similar to how World of Darkness does it.
8 + (1/2) Body; Willpower Overflow
If your Damage Track is filled with Physical damage, you are unconscious. If your Overflow Track is filled with Physical damage, you are dead. If your Overflow Track is filled with Stun damage, you are unconscious, & all additional Stun damage instead converts an equal amount of existing Stun damage to Physical damage. Physical damage is always tracked in front of Stun damage.

This helps to solve the issue as well; Stun damage is always less dangerous this way. This also solves some problems with Overcasting, among other things, & simply makes more sense.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Feb 8 2009, 08:35 PM) *
S&S rounds on the other hand, being elemental damage, work damn well against spirits.

Just as well as against all other targets, not better. The spirit still gets its armor. It may be elemental but it is not magic. The spirit's armor is then halved as normal.

Just to avoid confusion.
InfinityzeN
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 8 2009, 05:40 PM) *
Just as well as against all other targets, not better. The spirit still gets its armor. It may be elemental but it is not magic. The spirit's armor is then halved as normal.

Just to avoid confusion.

Halving their armor works damn fine against 'Hardened' armor. A decent roll to overcome their lowered armor, pulse the damage from a full auto spray, will put down some very nasty spirits with one long burst.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 8 2009, 05:38 PM) *
I was going to be changing them to 4S(e), but I think I like your solution more. I will be using that instead in my upcoming game.


Edit: I am also changing the damage tracks into a single track, similar to how World of Darkness does it.
8 + (1/2) Body; Willpower Overflow
If your Damage Track is filled with Physical damage, you are unconscious. If your Overflow Track is filled with Physical damage, you are dead. If your Overflow Track is filled with Stun damage, you are unconscious, & all additional Stun damage instead converts an equal amount of existing Stun damage to Physical damage. Physical damage is always tracked in front of Stun damage.

This helps to solve the issue as well; Stun damage is always less dangerous this way. This also solves some problems with Overcasting, among other things, & simply makes more sense.



...That works out to be exactly the same as it is now, only more complicated. Your "healthy, but taking stun, to dead" time is the same (except if your willpower and body are vastly different values).

The reason the physical overflow is based on body is that if you're healthy you bleed out slower, rather than because your strong willed (though I will admit that a strong willed person "just won't die").

The only difference is that the die pool penalties: they'll get larger. 2 stun + 2 physical is -0 dice right now (-1 under your system), 5 stun and 5 physical is -2 dice (-3 under yours) and the player is conscious (and unconscious in yours).
Muspellsheimr
Actually, it is vastly different from how it works now. Try it out & see - having a single track makes far more sense, works better, & makes Stun less dangerous. It is a bit more complicated, but worth it. A Troll can no longer be knocked out with a mere 9 Stun, the mages will be hesitant to Overcast for Physical Drain, Stick n Shock is not as obscenely powerful, Stun spells are no longer more efficient for less Drain, & the samurai will not be stripping off his armor to stay conscious.


A small example of how it works:
3 Body; 3 Will
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] ( ) ( )
( )

5 Stun Damage (conscious)
[/] [/] [/]
[/] [/] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] ( ) ( )
( )

+ 6 Physical Damage (conscious)
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) ( )
( )

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious. Lets go with 3 Physical damage.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] (/) (/)
(/) /

The last point of Stun damage is in excess of the Overflow track, so converts existing Stun to Physical, & looks like this.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] (/) (/)
(/)

At this point, 3 more damage (Stun) will kill him. Physical is effectively 2 Stun (track Physical, then converts existing Stun now over the Overflow). Lets go back 2 steps.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) ( )
( )

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious. This time we will do 3 Stun damage.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) (/)
(/) /

The last point of Stun is in excess of the Overflow track, & thus converts a point of existing Stun to Physical instead.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [/] [/]
[/] (/) (/)
(/)

Now, 3 Physical or 6 Stun will kill him.
Draco18s
Conversely
CODE
3 Body; 3 Will
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ]             [ ]

5 Stun Damage (conscious)
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [/] [/] [/]
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [/] [/] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ]             [ ]

+ 6 Physical Damage (conscious)
[x] [x] [x]     [/] [/] [/]
[x] [x] [x]     [/] [/] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]     [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ]             [ ]

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious.  Lets go with 3 Physical damage...


Uh oh. I hit a spot where adding in 2 damage of either both leave the target conscious, thus making the existing system vastly less dangerous than the White Wolf system.

Personally I prefer the Blue Planet system: you don't have a damage track per say. More damage induces more and more die pool penalties, just like the SR system but....there's no defined point when you die. A character is dead when the GM (for NPCs) or the player decide that it is impossible for the character to perform any task.
Muspellsheimr
I never said it was designed to make damage less dangerous. I sad it was designed to make Stun less dangerous. It makes far more sense, & does what it is intended to very well. The two separate damage tracks in Shadowrun is by far one of the worst aspects of the system.
Draco18s
It doesn't make stun less dangerous unless the character has a higher Will than Body. When Body is higher than Will it makes stun MORE dangerous.

For example:

Body 8, Will 2

Current system:

8 + 4 phys, 8 + 1 stun tracks (total 21 boxes of stun to kill, not counting Bleeding Out which is another 8 boxes, total 29)

Your system:

8 + 4 boxes doubled, 2 overflow (24 + 2, 26 to kill)

Body 2, Will 8

Existing:

8 + 1 P, 8 + 4 S

21 + 2 = 23

Yours:

8 + 1

(8+1)*2 + 8 = 26

It's a difference of 3 boxes in one direction or the other. All it means is that you have characters who are equally likely to die from stun because of high Will or high Body, it doesn't mean that everyone benefits. 90% of characters are going to see much shorter lives due to the fact that during a firefight you tend to take at least some of each kind of damage (my last fight had me with 4 physical and 5 stun).
Muspellsheimr
You fail to understand the point - I do not give a shit about the RAW damage system. It is crap. When talking about a house rule, nothing I fucking say is about RAW unless I specifically state otherwise.

Nothing I have said has anything to do with RAW. In my system, Stun damage is significantly less dangerous.
Draco18s
In which case:

Less dangerous than what? Less dangerous than Physical/Lethal damage? (Which, it already is)
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 9 2009, 12:08 AM) *
Actually, it is vastly different from how it works now. Try it out & see - having a single track makes far more sense, works better, & makes Stun less dangerous. It is a bit more complicated, but worth it. A Troll can no longer be knocked out with a mere 9 Stun, the mages will be hesitant to Overcast for Physical Drain, Stick n Shock is not as obscenely powerful, Stun spells are no longer more efficient for less Drain, & the samurai will not be stripping off his armor to stay conscious.


A small example of how it works:
3 Body; 3 Will
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] ( ) ( )
( )

5 Stun Damage (conscious)
[/] [/] [/]
[/] [/] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] ( ) ( )
( )

+ 6 Physical Damage (conscious)
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) ( )
( )

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious. Lets go with 3 Physical damage.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] (/) (/)
(/) /

The last point of Stun damage is in excess of the Overflow track, so converts existing Stun to Physical, & looks like this.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] (/) (/)
(/)

At this point, 3 more damage (Stun) will kill him. Physical is effectively 2 Stun (track Physical, then converts existing Stun now over the Overflow). Lets go back 2 steps.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) ( )
( )

At this point, 2 more damage (Physical or Stun) will render him unconscious. This time we will do 3 Stun damage.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[/] [/] [/]
[/] (/) (/)
(/) /

The last point of Stun is in excess of the Overflow track, & thus converts a point of existing Stun to Physical instead.
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [x] [x]
[x] [/] [/]
[/] (/) (/)
(/)

Now, 3 Physical or 6 Stun will kill him.

That would seem to increase the overall lethality of the system .......... but it's quite interesting.
When you have tested this houserule tell us how it did fare.

I wonder if we Dumpshockers should create an archive of all the houserules we device (along with discussions about how well they work) for everyone's benefit; maybe it could help the devs into improving the system.

Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 8 2009, 06:18 PM) *
Less dangerous than what? Less dangerous than Physical/Lethal damage? (Which, it already is)

Which, it already is not. In most situations, the Physical track will at least equal the Stun track, meaning taking them out through Stun is at least as fast. Methods for inflicting Stun damage are nearly universally better than methods for inflicting Physical damage; in addition, Physical damage tends to become Stun from armor conversion. And when you go down in combat, you are just as dead as if it was Physical - in other words, the overflow will generally not be enough to kill you outright, which means you are in the hands of your group either way.

By RAW, Stun damage is very much more dangerous in the vast majority of situations.
Draco18s
Then I'll repeat myself:

Dead is dead, all you've done is shorten the track.
pbangarth
Though the Stun track is usually shorter than the Physical track, there is a chance that the one who knocked you out will be content to leave it at that, and not finish off your comatose body. In that respect, it is in the character's favour to have separate Stun and Physical tracks.
Draco18s
I should also note that my GM likes the particular fact that one good stunbolt (or a short burst of Stick and Shock) will take out a Troll.
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