Effects of stacked hardened armor Options

[Prime Mover]

Ok I know this has to be here somewhere but my searches are bringing up dozens of posts that don't answer the question. Please link relevant discussion if you know title. P&T

Ok for arguments sake I have 4 points of hardened armor and 4 points of regular armor if the DV is higher then 4 do I no longer consider any armor hardened?

Edit: Question thats come up, if my 4 pnts of regular armor reduce the modified damage below 4 DV wouldn't the hardened armor then stop it?

[raggedhalo]

If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular then if the Power is 4 or less, you take no damage; 5 or more, you take Physical.

If you had 4 points of Hardened and 8 points of regular, then a Power of 1-4 causes you no damage, 5-8 causes Stun and 9+ causes Physical.

Edit: In SR4, armour doesn't reduce the power of incoming damage. That's from previous editions.

[Prime Mover]

Thats pretty much how I've been running it.

[raggedhalo]

I forgot to mention, though:

If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular, you're rolling Body + 8 to resist damage. In my second example, Body + 12.

[Kev]

I forgot to mention, though:

If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular, you're rolling Body + 8 to resist damage. In my second example, Body + 12.

Actually, by BBB you'd be rolling 4+Body (for your first example) or 8+Body (for your second example) to resist, since only the higher armor would apply. It's odd how armor stacking works in SR4, though. Technically, the highest of the two armors would apply (though both count for encumberance), which would leave the hardened armor out of it.

But that having been said, your rules make sense so I'd stick with 'em. 'Cept for the 12+Body roll.

[Muspellsheimr]

If you have 4 points of Hardened and 4 points of regular then if the Power is 4 or less, you take no damage; 5 or more, you take Physical.

Incorrect.

4 Hardened Armor, 4 Armor:
Damage 0 - 4; resist nothing
Damage 5 - 8; resist Stun
Damage > 8; resist Physical

[Kev]

Incorrect.

4 Hardened Armor, 4 Armor:
Damage 0 - 4; resist nothing
Damage 5 - 8; resist Stun
Damage > 8; resist Physical

Hardened armor stacks?

[raggedhalo]

@Muspellsheimr:

I remember reading dev posts on this board explaining it the way I did.

@Kev:

Nup. If, for example, you're possessed by a spirit (the only real way I know of for a PC to get hardened armour) then it stacks with worn armour.

[Red-ROM]

Forgive my ignorance, but where is this hardened armor you speak of ?

[hobgoblin]

arsenal, military armor most likely...

or maybe i spoke too soon. i checked arsenal, and i cant find any bit of text that says military body armor is hardened.

but i found a bit of text that said it could not be worn with other armor...

[raggedhalo]

Hardened armour generally comes from one of two sources:

1. A vehicle's armour is hardened. Passengers inside the vehicle who are shot at get this protection in addition to their own worn armour.

2. Armour granted by the critter power Immunity to Normal Weapons is hardened. PCs generally get this when they are possessed by a spirit. It also stacks with worn armour.

[Stahlseele]

and there'S those surge skin armor things that count as hardened armor right? Stone-Skin at least?

[Draco18s]

Of if you're a Drake (Runner's Companion) and manage to somehow get outfitted with equipment-armor.

The way I plan on suggesting that be done to my GM (because it does make sense) is to treat them as layers:

If the damage is less than worn armor, stun. If not it's physical. Apply worn armor. If the remainder is less than natural armor, nothing. If not, whatever it was before.

Ex. 1, if a drake (4/4 hardened armor) wearing flak-barding (10/8 unhardened armor) gets shot and has to resist 11 damage. Roll the 10 dice (4 successes). That leaves 6 damage against 4 armor -> Physical damage (11 > 10 & 6 > 4)

Ex. 2, drake gets shot and has to resist 6 damage. Rolls 10 dice, 3 successes, leaving 3 damage against 4 armor -> nothing (3 < 4).

Ex. 3, drake gets shot and has to resist 8 damage. Roll 10 dice, 2 success leaving 6 damage against 4 armor -> Stun damage (8 < 10 and 6 > 4).

There's simply no way for a critter (such as a drake) to take 4 damage before armor is applied in order for it to be ignored (instead of stun). Even as an adept taking the Mystic Armor power (which isn't the same as the critter power) it takes a bit before you actually have armor high enough to matter (about 3 full magic) and even then you're squishier as a drake than a human, that same 3 magic gives you +6 armor in both forms (16 when wearing a flak jacket, 16 normal armor is nothing to sneeze at). I'd leave it up to my GM to decide if the adept power armor (or mage armor) applies to the first test or the second (does it augment the hardened armor or not).

[Heath Robinson]

1. A vehicle's armour is hardened. Passengers inside the vehicle who are shot at get this protection in addition to their own worn armour.

IIRC, vehicle armour isn't hardened. It's just that Vehicles and Drones don't have stun tracks, so they don't take any damage if the attack has less damage than their armour rating (because that converts physical to stun). Complex, yeah. It's the kind of non-intuitive technicality that I like, though.

[hobgoblin]

as a possible shorthand, if its below the rating of the haardened armor, its not going thu. if its above, its checked against the highest armor for its damage type to see what happens.

[Draco18s]

Except when the hardened armor value is so low that nothing could ever do that little damage (find a way to do 4P damage).

[Muspellsheimr]

as a possible shorthand, if its below the rating of the haardened armor, its not going thu. if its above, its checked against the highest armor for its damage type to see what happens.

If it is below the Hardened value, it does no damage. If it is above the Hardened value, it is checked against the total Armor Value to determine if it is Physical or Stun.

Hardened & Normal armor stack. Normal & Normal armor usually do not stack (exceptions are specified in their descriptions), as well as Hardened & Hardened.

[AllTheNothing]

In my opinion the matter is best handled with the usual damage resistance test, if the final damage is higher than the total armor rating it's physical (unless it was stun to begin with), if it's equal or lower than the total armor rating but higher than the hardened portion it's stun, if the final damage is equal or lower than the hardened portion it does nothing.

For example an ork western drake (body: 6 base + 4 drake) wearing a custom urban explorer jumpsuit (10/10 total armor of which 4/4 hardened) is shot with a predator loaded with APDS rounds (5P -5AP, 2 net hits on the attack test), he/she must make a Body + Armor(modified) (10 + 5) vs a treshold of 7; if he rolls a single hit or less he takes physical (7-1=6, 6>5), if he rolls 2 hits he takes five (och) points of stun damage (7-2=5, 5>4), if he rolls 3 or more hits (or just buyes them) he takes no damage at all (7-3=4).

[hobgoblin]

i thought that armor turned damage into stun (or ignored it in case of hardened) based on the base damage of the weapon, not the final outcome of the attack test.

[AllTheNothing]

If it is below the Hardened value, it does no damage. If it is above the Hardened value, it is checked against the total Armor Value to determine if it is Physical or Stun.

Hardened & Normal armor stack. Normal & Normal armor usually do not stack (exceptions are specified in their descriptions), as well as Hardened & Hardened.

Armors intended as a class wearable objects usualy doesn't stack among themselves (but stack for determing the encumbrance), but armor intended as rating do, cyber/bio-ware that grant armor bonus does stack with armor warn and probably doesn't count toward the armor encumbrance (it's part of the body), magical effects stack and don't produce encumbrance and than there is AltSkin (with armor option) that does stack as well, but it's not stated if it adds to the encumbrance or not (I would rule not, it becomes one with the skin becoming more than anything some "natural" armor; it's also expensive and lasts only 24 hours, it doesn't need other downsides as well).

[AllTheNothing]

i thought that armor turned damage into stun (or ignored it in case of hardened) based on the base damage of the weapon, not the final outcome of the attack test.

I checked and you are right, the type of damage is determined comparing the Base Damage + Net Hits to Armor - AP; the hardened armor of a drake result pretty useless.
It also mean that a succesfull Ares Predator shot is potentialy enough to harm a force 3 spirit (5 + net hits > 6 - 1), and a Warhawk loaded with APDS could harm a force 6 spirit (6 + net hits > 12 - 6).

[Draco18s]

And the SMG in Arsenal (Ingram SuperMach 100) that comes already High Velocity is enough to kill outright a force 8 spirit with a full auto (narrow). Or very nearly. I watched it happen in a game two weeks ago (The spirit had taking maybe a box of damage from a grenade, then took the High Velocity shot--I forget if it was a long burst or a full auto, either way, the character was splitting his large dice pool between two guns and two targets--leaving it with only 1 or 2 boxes left).

But then, a full auto for damage from a high velocity weapon should just kill people:

4 + 11 + net hits.

That's 15+ which is enough to overcome the force 8 spirits immunity (16 hardened armor) provided that you hit.

the hardened armor of a drake result pretty useless.

Yes. And even in the example used previously (the orc western drake), you're assuming that a drake in dracoform can wear armor. Not that the rules state that they can't, but it'd have to be custom tailored. The rules are very lacking with respect to what happens to humanoid armor when a shapshifter returns to animal form (or a drake shifts to dracoform). It's annoying. If drakes can't have versatile armor for both forms, then the 4/4 Hardened is less than useless (it's draining BP). If they do have the armor, then how does it stack? 4/4 Hardened + 6/6 normal -> 10/10 "normal" unless you somehow take less than 5 damage? Which we've already determined is impossible, unless the paraplegic technomancer is punching you.

Heck, it's not even useful against another drake. Assuming a drake has 3 strength or better, their claw/bite damage is 4 or better, negating the "hardness" of their scales.

[Magus]

ITNW is not affected by the DV for burst or FA. Base DV only.

[Draco18s]

Hardened Armor
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always

Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed
the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.

Immunity
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating� equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened� protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.

Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept
or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

See bold.

Modified Damage Value (Base + Burst + Net Hits) does not exceed Modified Armor Value (Armor + AP), then nothing happens.

[hobgoblin]

try top of p143, SR4/BBB...