Initiative is a derived score from your Intuition and Reaction attributes. Things like Suprathyroid Gland, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Booster, etc. increase the attribute of Reaction, therefore they boost your initiative. The modifications you speak don't actually modify your Intuition attribute, therefore wouldn't effect your initiative score.

I don't think that they are, unless you're looking very close. But I think HOW visible they are is up to your GM really.

nope, they are not.
fluff has it that everybody with MBW is obviously using them for the single reason that they DO NOT twitch around like wired reflexes, but are smooth criminals. *snickers* ^^

You should check out the 800BP thread in the Community Projects side of the Forum. I got a Elf Sensor/Firearms Sammy in there that is just *Scary*.

I generally interpret the MBW twitch as a low-grade fine tremor, like someone on Lithium or in low-level withdrawl. Not obvious, hard to notice even if you're looking for it, but definitely there. When I was on Lithium, most people couldn't tell I was shaking, but I sure could - it fouled up my manual dexterity, forcing me to overcorrect on occasion. I'm not saying that's the RAW; I interpret it that way because it matches my roleplaying needs. It would still be less "twitchy" than wired reflexes, but more so than synaptic boosters I should think.

So back to the original question. Let's build a gunbunny with MbW and 2 modular cyber forearms (for switching out when you don't want to be obvious), who goes into combat wearing obvious forearms with cyberarm gyromounts (he's ambidextrous and specializes in SMG's). What else should we put in the forearms? What other cyber/bio should I get?

If you're looking at pumping out SMG spray, then you want agility. I'm assuming you're using customized cyberlimbs. I'd raise the agility to your natural maximum (so initial 3 plus 2-4) increasing the cost and availability slightly, and then pump it all the way up with Agility Enhancements. You can't combine muscle toner with your cyberarms for the purpose of shooting, or anything else really for that matter, but I'd grab Reflex Recorder (Automatics).

I'd look at Dermal Sheath (Much cheaper than Orthoskin), Bone Lacing or Bone Density Augmentation, and Cybereyes (You could always do goggle or a tricked out helmet though) decked out with vision and sensor modifiers (Ultrasound? Radar?).

I was using forearms, but that's mostly a holdover from back when I was building cybered adepts now that I think about it. Still, is it worthwhile to use customized limbs instead of muscle toner and partial limbs?

Either way, muscle toner won't stack with the partial limbs.

"When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack
with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber);
in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the
task (round down)."

In this case, you're either going to use just the agility on the forearm, or you're going to average your natural agility (plus muscle toner) and your agility-boosted partial limb.

I was under the impression that partial limbs didn't contribute to the average, but instead used your non-limb attributes :-/

Does that mean I'm better off with full arms?

I'm also interested in improved senses, but not in things like UWB radar which loudly announce your presence.

Get full limbs, max out AGI, probably increase STR as far as needed for additional recoil compensation.
Other interesting gadgets would be a nanohive (if you're going down the sensor sam route, get a hold of some Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanites, but get an Attention Coprocessor first), an Autoinjector and cyberlimb armor (which is, however, quite demanding in capacity).

As far as damage reduction is concerned, i think Platelet Factory is the most cost-effective, even though a Blood Circuit Control System is more efficient as far as synergy effects with a trauma damper are concerned- but it is prohibitively expensive Essence-wise, so it may very well not be an option for you.
But i'd get REA as high as possible before that anyway, along with Dodge and/or Acrobatics (Syntharcadium comes in handy here)- better not to get hit in the first place than to soak damage.

Hm, if you use standard grade ware, that wouldn't leave you with much more Essence to spend, but there's some rather nifty geneware around.
Synch, React and Genetic Optimization might be particularly interesting.

That should, along with eyes and ears, provide a good basis for most tasks you'll face.
If you want something more subtle than UWB radar, use ultrasound sensors passively (great for detecting opposing ultraound sensors!) and probably get one of those bioware thermosense organs to detect hidden enemies.

That should be about all you need.

You get a skilled shooter who can avoid getting hit, reacts swiftly and is perceptive as hell, along with the ability to handle a lot of non-combative physical tasks such as running, climbing, jumping and so on (thanks, Syntharcadium!) and who can sneak around a bit, so you'll have all of the basic samurai tasks covered.

On the other hand, the Lightning Reflexes positive quality makes a distinction between Reaction Enhancers and Initiative Enhancers:



If all Reaction enhancers are considered Initiative enhancers, then there's some redundancy in that text that would, presumably, not have survived editing.

You have a better opinion of the (necessarily, I'll admit) editing process than I do :-/

Look at it this way:

A 350-page large hardcover book like SR4 is going to average about 800 words a page, for 280,000 words. Even if the editing is 99.9% accurate, there are going to be 280 mistakes (typos, incorrect page references, etc). If it's 99.99% accurate - which you have to admit is incredible - there are STILL 28 errors.

The fact that there are 28, or even 280, errors doesn't negate that the editing is 99.9(9)% perfect. It's far, far, dramatically far more reasonable to assume that the editing is accurate than otherwise unless there's a blatant error there (the aforementioned typos or incorrect page references).

I'm referring more to ambiguous wording that they haven't gotten around to changing rather than outright mistakes.

The Encephlon is a real bonus to logic. It's the neo-cordical nanites that are a boost to logic linked skills and don't help with drain. Similarly The limbic nanites wouldn't help with initiative because it isn't an intuition linked skill.

Maybe I'm still hung up on SR2-3, but I more or less picture Move-by-Wire users as twitching or even vibrating noticeably when still because the signals don't balance and muscles are pulling in all directions at once with not-quite-equal force. Only when given a direction to travel does the user suddenly move with preternatural grace and smoothness.

Also MBW should always come with an inevitable risk of major system malfunctions and irreparable brain damage. MBW is state of the art, and it comes with the concomitant risks. Wired reflexes are old hat, but they're reliable.

(Yes, MBW was SotA in the '60s. I play them as still SotA in the '70s. Your campaign may vary.)

The Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanties are useful but not worth going all out to get. They only add their bonus during non-stressful times. So they don't help you notice stuff while your getting shot at (like that sneaky guy flanking you) or where exactly that fireball just came in from.

It was in SR3. It is not a Logic increaser in SR4.

I just go with a hand if I need a cybergyro. 4 capacity is just enough, and there's no question that your natural agility is vastly more important than your metal fingers.

It can't work that way if you want to stay as realisitic as possible. The 'signals in all directions' bit is only happening in the neural portion of muscular control. Only the signals that are desired - once the countersignal is filtered - reach the chemical transmission phase that connects neural activity with muscular action. Because of the refractory times of muscle fibers, this is the only way the system could operate and still give faster than human reactions.

As a GM, I require all cyberlimbs to be customized to the attributes of the user. This includes partial limbs, hands, even cyberskulls. To me, it seems absurd to attach something of inferior capability to your meat.

I hadnt' thought of that, but I suppose an argument could be made for doing it. The problem I see is that the weights come out of your wrist, which may or may not be part of the cyberhand.

Why? I'd rather have a weak, clumsy leg than none at all.


That's one example. I can certainly imagine a counterweight system on the back of your hand.

SR4 335: "When activated, counter-weights pop out of the user's wrist and provide her with better balance and reduced recoil for improved firing capability."

I always imagined them spinning around the wrist, for some reason. Anyone else have a take on how it should work?

I've always had the image of a counterweight system popping out of the wrist, but i see no reason why i cant be housed in the hand and fold backwards or something. Or you could just say that the cyberhand includes the wrist which was always my imagining (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Works for me - and makes ambidextrous cyber-adepts even more interesting ^_^