What are some of the best loadouts for a street sam, either at character creation or later? I've been playing around with different augs, and I was wondering what other people like to use.

The character I'm building right now is ambidextrous, with two modular obvious forearms and cyberware gyromounts (and spare synthetic forearms for times when he wants to blend in).

I'm especially interested in different strategies for avoiding damage penalties: trauma dampeners, adrenal pumps, damage compensators, blood circuit control systems, platelet factories, and pain editors.

My GM allows upgrading cyberware for the difference in cost, but only within grade (i.e. rating 1 standard can be upgraded to rating 2 standard for the difference, but you have to rip it out if you want rating 2 alpha).

it really depends, you seem to be going for the old gunslinger type sam but there are the builds for the tank sam, close quarters sam, bio sam ansd so on also race should be taking into consideration either way get your IPs up

In general:

Getting additional IPs is key, so either Wired Reflexes or (if you have the scratch) Synaptic Boosters. Other then that . . . Muscle Toner is nice for some extra agility (good for both firearms and range), and a Reflex recorder for whatever your poison happens to be. Lastly, something to help you soak damage, like Dermal Plating, Orthoskin, bone lacing, whatever. Other than that, whatever floats your boat. Smartlink eye mods are generally the norm, but some prefer the cheaper option of smartlinked goggles.

Not taking damage is usually better than only avoiding damage modfiers, so go for the Trauma Dampener and Platelet Factories. (The latter now only helps with Physical damage, per SR4A)

Generally, Bioware is the way to go for boosts as it's non-detectable and more essence-friendly... of course, it's more expensive. Orthoskin is especially nice, even on level 1, as it allows you to get the upgrades.

For senses, cyberware still is the route to go - get alphaware or better and cluster them, then put SensorSofts and a TacSoft on the cluster.

I think hands down Move-by-Wire is the BEST bang for your buck. Sure it's expensive money wise and Essence wise, but NO augmentation equals it really. Level 2 MBW gives you +4 to Reaction, +2 to Dodge, AND gives you SkillWires at rating 4. All this for only 85,000 and half you Essence... small price for the speed.

I love Orthoskin, but is quite expensive in terms of nuyen costs.

Move-by-Wire is tops in performance, but it makes you think outside the box for ways to get around subtly. Not that it can't be done, but it's certainly not as easy as it would be for Synaptic Boosters.

BTW, a 'Cyber Mask' Physical Illusion spell that just hides augmentations from sensors (limited - doesn't hide from normal vison, touch, etc.) would be a nice trick for a friendly magician to have. It'll be tougher in SR4A with te OR 6, but it's still worth looking into.

It's also worth noting that Move-by-Wire stacks with Reaction Enhancers, which the other "good" IP booster, Synaptic Booster, does not. So a street samurai with 20 BP in Reaction can reach his augmented max with Rating 2 Move-by-Wire and Rating 2 Reaction Enhancers.

So - +6 REA, +2 Dodge, +2 IP, and Skillwires 4 for 105,000 Nuyen and 3.6 essence loss (cyberware)

The best you can get without Move-by-Wire is this: Wired Reflexes 2, Skill Wires 4, Reaction Enhancers 3, and Reflex Recorder (Dodge). All this, and you are still missing out on 1 REA and 1 Dodge, yet the cost is 80,000, only 25,000 less than the above build, and 4.8 Essence, which is over an entire essence more that the Move-by-Wire build. Also, you are using a Reflex Recorder here to attempt to recreate the boost to dodge - while you can still put that on top of the Move-by-Wire for an additional dodge.

The only real downside to Move-by-Wire (besides the inherent downside to all Cyberware) is that you can't get above rating 1 during character creation without the Restricted Gear positive quality (which at 5 BP, is totally worth it).

Once you have this, I would get Muscle Toner 4 (Another use of Restricted Gear positive quality) and Reflex Recorder in the ranged weapon of your choice. (BF and FA are the best options if you're going to rock super-agility) That's another .9 Essence (bioware) and 42,000 Nuyen.

Some people will suggest Suprathyroid Gland, but for the cost (essence and nuyen) it isn't worth it for Strength you won't use (unless you care to melee with anything but shock weapons) and the Reaction that doesn't stack. Instead if you have the money left, I'd get Bone Density Augmentation rating 4, and use my final allowance of Restricted Gear to get Pain Editor. This is 1.4 Essence (bioware)

So far we're up to 4.75 total essence loss, and 267,000 Nuyen. With Born Rich, you'll be able to probably afford a decent gun, with upgrades, and an Armored Jacket with Full Form Fitting Body Armor, along with commlink and enhanced goggles. Put 40 BP in Agility, 20 in Reaction, 40 in Body, 40 in Willpower, 40 in Intuition, and 20 in Strength. Dump left-over BP into Dodge Automatics, and Edge.

All said and done (as a human) you'll have BOD 5 (9 for DV tests) AGI 9, REA 9, STR 3, CHA 1, INT 5, LOG 1, WIL 5 (6 with Pain Editor) Edge 2+ and Armor 14/10
(With 5 ranks in Dodge, and Spec Ranged, that's 19 dice to Full Dodge Ranged, or 25 for melee. If you do get hit, you roll 23/19 Physical Res. and 20/16 Stun Res. with the inability to go unconscious from stun. Also, with 5 Dice in Automatics and a specialization, plus Reflex Recorder and Smartlink, you're rolling 19 dice to hit with ranged.)

Congrats, you have a Uncouth, Stupid, Soul-less unstoppable combat machine for 400 BP. Good luck with legwork and RPing.

Pick your target and then go through all the cyber/bio that will get you there. Overall, here are my lists which will include some very expensive and longterm options.

Main Sam
Trauma Dampener & Platelet Factories (It adds up)
IP Booster (best you can get, MBW or Synaptic Boosters)
Suprathyroid Gland (+1 to *ALL* Physical Stats! That includes body)
Muscle Toner (Better Shoot/Stab/Punch/Bash/Sneak/etc)
Reflex Recorder (with your main combat skill/skill group)
Reflex Recorder (Dodge or Gymnastics/Athletics skill group)
Attention Coprocessor -or- Reception Enhancer (+ Perception rolls)

Shooter Sam
Implanted Smartgun
Muscle Toner 4
Genetic Optimization: Agility

A Human, Ork or Elf can get Agility 12 (Human & Ork need Exceptional Agility) which makes you a natural with every Agility skill (Default of 11!).

Melee/Tank Sam
Muscle Augmentation (Melee, optional STR-Recoil rules; Helps Climb/Run/etc)
Bone Density Augmentation or Bone Lacing (Better soak -&- Melee Damage)
Orthoskin -or- Dermal Sheath (Soak -&- Armor)

Sensor Sam
Attention Coprocessor -&- Reception Enhancer (++ Perception rolls baby!)
Ultrasound Sensor -&- Radar Sensor (Invisa'what? See through smoke, darkness, cover, walls!)
Orientation System
Olfactory Booster (Track by smell, chemical analyst, etc)
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors (Social boost -&- Perception bonus)
Taste Booster
Cybereyes 4 -&- Cyberears 4 (Maxed out baby!)
SensorSofts (They roll -&- you roll)
TacSoft (Yea, it is just evil)

Special Skills List
Genetic Optimization: Reflexes (Better Dodge/Drive, Faster Attacks)
Sleep Regulator ("Time... is on my... side" Think about how sleeping far less can be useful)
Extended Volume (More endurance for extended physical activity)
Synthacardium (helps with all that running and jumping and tumbling)
Cyberhand w/ Nanohive, Bio-monitor, Auto-Injector - 6 dose, reusable (You wanna be hard to kill?)
- Nanos: Nanosymbiotes (R: 3), Trauma Control System (R: 6), O-Cells (R: 9), Universal Nantidotes (R: 9)
- Drugs: Antidote (R: 6), Stimulant (R: 6), Trama

I disagree with you here, since the Suprathyroid Gland is not an Inititive booster (so adds to Reaction), increases Agility (better shooty/stabby) -&- increases Body (wear more armor, have more physical damage track) in addition to that Strength gain you knocked.

Strength does help with running and climbing, as well as possiblly carry and recoil comp. Maybe most GMs don't do it, but someone in my game with a Strength of two, wearing crazy armor and lugging crazy weapons around get slapped with crazy penalties.

An initiative booster is anything that boosts your initiative. Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, Move-by-Wire System, Suprathyroid Gland, Synaptic Boosters are all initiative boosters. Reaction enhancers are compatible with Move-by-Wire and Wired Reflexes, but not with anything else. Niether Suprathyroid Gland or Synaptic Boosters are compatible with anything else.

Also, armor in 2072 is incredibly light and flexible, all the way up to military grade. And weapons are made out of super-light alloys etc etc. While you might not be able to run around doing backflips and dual-wielding assault cannons, a strength of 3 can easily wield an automatic weapon.

don't implant ANYTHING that you can get by using external stuff if you wanna be the swiss army officer kinda guy.
have different needs each run? good, don't replace ware, replace gear, wear only whart you need, if it's not too expansive get rid of it after run and be unconspicious. Also, saves on money/essence too.
MBW and some computer skills and warez network will net you many skills fast and cheap too, once in game, if you know how to . .

It's been debated back and forth whether Reaction boosters count as Initiative boosters. It's my opinion that they do not; Reaction Enhancers should be compatible with IP boosters, but IP boosters should not be compatible with each other. You can put a reflex recorder on top of a rating 2 MBW, but not a rating 3; as per errata, a recorder boosts skill rating, not dice pool, and so is subject to the 1/2 skill cap. It also means cyber-adepts don't benefit if they're maxing Improved Ability. ActiveSofts were made MUCH more expensive in SR4A (10k/rating point), so Skillwires are significantly less useful now. They're still viable if you can get cracked copies of activesofts, though.

MbW is awesome, no doubt about it, but synaptic boosters 3 + reaction enhancers 3 is MUCH less detectable by scanners (and you twitch less, by fluff).

Some guild lines for optimization
1) don't cyber if you don't have to. A datajack is pointless by RAW. If you can get all the vision mods you need into contacts and your gun scope don't get eyes, similarly never get ears or an implanted com-link.

2) Get 3 IPs. 4 IPs will break your back at chargen. If you can get away with 2 great, think about drugs.

3) Stim patches in an auto injetor in your hand is the best way to avoid wound penalties.

---

But more important than all of that is doing something you will have fun with

So we (along with lots of others) completely disagree on what a initiative booster is. His game uses they are compatable, can we drop it and focus on the original question?


Again an item totally open to the GM. If you want to talk it over, PM or new thread please.

can someone real quick post me the stats of the reaction enhancers?
i thought they only upped your reaction attribute, not your ini passes?
i would personally rule that nothing that gives ini passes is compatible with anything else that gives inipasses, only the highest bonus applies(only drugs would stack directly, and those only up to the usual maximum of 4)
i(and it seems many others) would rule everything that ups reaction attribute to directly stack with each other, to only apply highest bonus at worst.

It is just reaction. The real question is what the RAW means when it says initiative enhancers: initiative (pass) enhancers, or initiative (score) enhancers.

This thread has me enthralled.

Thank you for posting the stuff for sensor sammies. My Sunday group has one and I am sure he has a wish list of sorts now.

Tyro, I had no idea MBW twitched. This may be old version poisoning but I thought MBW was uncannily smooth.

(Delete this please)

"Reaction Enhancers: By replacing part of the spinal column with
superconducting material, a character's reaction time can be increased.
Add the rating of reaction enhancers to a character's Reaction attribute
(this will also affect Initiative). Reaction enhancers are incompatible
with most other Initiative-boosters." - Page 342 SR4A

This explains that Reaction Enhancers are, in fact, initiative boosters. They boost your reaction, and by extension, your initiative.


"Thanks to monofilament ballistic fabrics, spiderweave threads, ceramictitanium
composite plates, and liquid armor packs to cover non-rigid
areas, modern armor is lightweight, flexible, and concealable. The following
armor items offer tremendous damage resistance without slowing
the wearer down or drawing too much attention." - Page 326, SR4A

And that one.

I agree that ultimately everything is up to the GM. But these explanations and rules were placed in the rulebook for a reason, and for clarifications such as these.

EDIT - Sorry for the double post, I got all confused, and apparently you can't delete posts.

does intelligence indirectly raise initiative score or something too?
if so, is encephalon and the +1/+2 int bioware incompatible now too?
it is the same as iff you raise your reaction attribute with karma. it's not direkt initiative, it's indirect, they are and allways have been, compatible with everything else.
kinda like intelligence and quickness made your combat pool go up in SR3 . .

According to Arsenal, your MBW gives you small twitches in your muscles. You don't actually twitch visibly, but you have minor spasms in your muscles (Much like in real life when you are suffering from a deficiency in potassium).

Encephalon boosts effective Logic for technical skill tests. It doesn't boost your Intuition which in turn would raise your initiative. Off-hand, I know of nothing that boosts your Intuition and thus nothing besides Reaction-ware to count as Initiative Boosters.

My current sam is a mix of close-combat and firearms(more of a weapons specialist, to be honest), but uses this loadout(keep in mind we do not have Availability limits at the start):

Muscle Augmentation 3
Muscle Toner 3
Suprathyroid Gland
Synthacardium 2
Titanium Bone Lacing
Wired Reflexes 2
Smartlink Eye Modification


That's it. It makes him fast, strong, tough, gives him his smartlink. It's a good thing he has money, as he needs the licenses(though he's ex military, and could get the licenses a bit easier and a bit more believably.)

But yes, different loadouts for different sams. A firearms specialist I would just ditch most of the Muscle Aug and pump more Toner in there, lower the Bone Lacing a bit(though titanium's Ballistic bonus is nice, I'd probably run ceramic or aluminum, most likely the former), more eye mods, another level of Synthacardium(extra Athletics/Dodging), etc. This guy more or less is close combat, though I could have fit Orthoskin in there possibly, with a bit of fumbling around with the other ware(though with a modified 6 body, he can wear plenty of armor-his current close in armor is a total of 14/11.)

There are Nanite and Genetic mods that add dice to any pool using Intuition. Guess since initiative has Intuition in it, they add dice to Initiative rolls. Also I suggested using a Suprathyroid Gland, not Reaction Enhancers.

Please, we have side tracked this thread enough. If you wish to continue on trying to convince me of something you never will, take it to PM or create a new thread.

Right, like aerodynamically unstable planes. A series or forces are exerted in all directions and the opposing force is let go for fast reaction.

I just never thought that these motions would be on the visible level.

Initiative is a derived score from your Intuition and Reaction attributes. Things like Suprathyroid Gland, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Booster, etc. increase the attribute of Reaction, therefore they boost your initiative. The modifications you speak don't actually modify your Intuition attribute, therefore wouldn't effect your initiative score.

I don't think that they are, unless you're looking very close. But I think HOW visible they are is up to your GM really.

nope, they are not.
fluff has it that everybody with MBW is obviously using them for the single reason that they DO NOT twitch around like wired reflexes, but are smooth criminals. *snickers* ^^

You should check out the 800BP thread in the Community Projects side of the Forum. I got a Elf Sensor/Firearms Sammy in there that is just *Scary*.

I generally interpret the MBW twitch as a low-grade fine tremor, like someone on Lithium or in low-level withdrawl. Not obvious, hard to notice even if you're looking for it, but definitely there. When I was on Lithium, most people couldn't tell I was shaking, but I sure could - it fouled up my manual dexterity, forcing me to overcorrect on occasion. I'm not saying that's the RAW; I interpret it that way because it matches my roleplaying needs. It would still be less "twitchy" than wired reflexes, but more so than synaptic boosters I should think.

So back to the original question. Let's build a gunbunny with MbW and 2 modular cyber forearms (for switching out when you don't want to be obvious), who goes into combat wearing obvious forearms with cyberarm gyromounts (he's ambidextrous and specializes in SMG's). What else should we put in the forearms? What other cyber/bio should I get?

If you're looking at pumping out SMG spray, then you want agility. I'm assuming you're using customized cyberlimbs. I'd raise the agility to your natural maximum (so initial 3 plus 2-4) increasing the cost and availability slightly, and then pump it all the way up with Agility Enhancements. You can't combine muscle toner with your cyberarms for the purpose of shooting, or anything else really for that matter, but I'd grab Reflex Recorder (Automatics).

I'd look at Dermal Sheath (Much cheaper than Orthoskin), Bone Lacing or Bone Density Augmentation, and Cybereyes (You could always do goggle or a tricked out helmet though) decked out with vision and sensor modifiers (Ultrasound? Radar?).

I was using forearms, but that's mostly a holdover from back when I was building cybered adepts now that I think about it. Still, is it worthwhile to use customized limbs instead of muscle toner and partial limbs?

Either way, muscle toner won't stack with the partial limbs.

"When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack
with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber);
in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the
task (round down)."

In this case, you're either going to use just the agility on the forearm, or you're going to average your natural agility (plus muscle toner) and your agility-boosted partial limb.

I was under the impression that partial limbs didn't contribute to the average, but instead used your non-limb attributes :-/

Does that mean I'm better off with full arms?

I'm also interested in improved senses, but not in things like UWB radar which loudly announce your presence.

Get full limbs, max out AGI, probably increase STR as far as needed for additional recoil compensation.
Other interesting gadgets would be a nanohive (if you're going down the sensor sam route, get a hold of some Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanites, but get an Attention Coprocessor first), an Autoinjector and cyberlimb armor (which is, however, quite demanding in capacity).

As far as damage reduction is concerned, i think Platelet Factory is the most cost-effective, even though a Blood Circuit Control System is more efficient as far as synergy effects with a trauma damper are concerned- but it is prohibitively expensive Essence-wise, so it may very well not be an option for you.
But i'd get REA as high as possible before that anyway, along with Dodge and/or Acrobatics (Syntharcadium comes in handy here)- better not to get hit in the first place than to soak damage.

Hm, if you use standard grade ware, that wouldn't leave you with much more Essence to spend, but there's some rather nifty geneware around.
Synch, React and Genetic Optimization might be particularly interesting.

That should, along with eyes and ears, provide a good basis for most tasks you'll face.
If you want something more subtle than UWB radar, use ultrasound sensors passively (great for detecting opposing ultraound sensors!) and probably get one of those bioware thermosense organs to detect hidden enemies.

That should be about all you need.

You get a skilled shooter who can avoid getting hit, reacts swiftly and is perceptive as hell, along with the ability to handle a lot of non-combative physical tasks such as running, climbing, jumping and so on (thanks, Syntharcadium!) and who can sneak around a bit, so you'll have all of the basic samurai tasks covered.

On the other hand, the Lightning Reflexes positive quality makes a distinction between Reaction Enhancers and Initiative Enhancers:



If all Reaction enhancers are considered Initiative enhancers, then there's some redundancy in that text that would, presumably, not have survived editing.

You have a better opinion of the (necessarily, I'll admit) editing process than I do :-/

Look at it this way:

A 350-page large hardcover book like SR4 is going to average about 800 words a page, for 280,000 words. Even if the editing is 99.9% accurate, there are going to be 280 mistakes (typos, incorrect page references, etc). If it's 99.99% accurate - which you have to admit is incredible - there are STILL 28 errors.

The fact that there are 28, or even 280, errors doesn't negate that the editing is 99.9(9)% perfect. It's far, far, dramatically far more reasonable to assume that the editing is accurate than otherwise unless there's a blatant error there (the aforementioned typos or incorrect page references).

I'm referring more to ambiguous wording that they haven't gotten around to changing rather than outright mistakes.

The Encephlon is a real bonus to logic. It's the neo-cordical nanites that are a boost to logic linked skills and don't help with drain. Similarly The limbic nanites wouldn't help with initiative because it isn't an intuition linked skill.

Maybe I'm still hung up on SR2-3, but I more or less picture Move-by-Wire users as twitching or even vibrating noticeably when still because the signals don't balance and muscles are pulling in all directions at once with not-quite-equal force. Only when given a direction to travel does the user suddenly move with preternatural grace and smoothness.

Also MBW should always come with an inevitable risk of major system malfunctions and irreparable brain damage. MBW is state of the art, and it comes with the concomitant risks. Wired reflexes are old hat, but they're reliable.

(Yes, MBW was SotA in the '60s. I play them as still SotA in the '70s. Your campaign may vary.)

The Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanties are useful but not worth going all out to get. They only add their bonus during non-stressful times. So they don't help you notice stuff while your getting shot at (like that sneaky guy flanking you) or where exactly that fireball just came in from.

It was in SR3. It is not a Logic increaser in SR4.

I just go with a hand if I need a cybergyro. 4 capacity is just enough, and there's no question that your natural agility is vastly more important than your metal fingers.

It can't work that way if you want to stay as realisitic as possible. The 'signals in all directions' bit is only happening in the neural portion of muscular control. Only the signals that are desired - once the countersignal is filtered - reach the chemical transmission phase that connects neural activity with muscular action. Because of the refractory times of muscle fibers, this is the only way the system could operate and still give faster than human reactions.

As a GM, I require all cyberlimbs to be customized to the attributes of the user. This includes partial limbs, hands, even cyberskulls. To me, it seems absurd to attach something of inferior capability to your meat.

I hadnt' thought of that, but I suppose an argument could be made for doing it. The problem I see is that the weights come out of your wrist, which may or may not be part of the cyberhand.

Why? I'd rather have a weak, clumsy leg than none at all.


That's one example. I can certainly imagine a counterweight system on the back of your hand.

SR4 335: "When activated, counter-weights pop out of the user's wrist and provide her with better balance and reduced recoil for improved firing capability."

I always imagined them spinning around the wrist, for some reason. Anyone else have a take on how it should work?

I've always had the image of a counterweight system popping out of the wrist, but i see no reason why i cant be housed in the hand and fold backwards or something. Or you could just say that the cyberhand includes the wrist which was always my imagining

Works for me - and makes ambidextrous cyber-adepts even more interesting ^_^