if it were jsut counterweight, it would work without popping out, as the weight does not change, because the weight is attached to the hand no matter what . .
i imagin those things spinning around too, as they are gyroscopic thignies, and gyroscopes work by spinning. and for that price, those gyroscopes had BETTER be spinning ^^
Full Version: Best loadouts for street sams
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 20 2009, 11:52 AM) 
if it were jsut counterweight, it would work without popping out, as the weight does not change, because the weight is attached to the hand no matter what . .
i imagin those things spinning around too, as they are gyroscopic thignies, and gyroscopes work by spinning. and for that price, those gyroscopes had BETTER be spinning ^^
i imagin those things spinning around too, as they are gyroscopic thignies, and gyroscopes work by spinning. and for that price, those gyroscopes had BETTER be spinning ^^
I imagine the weight required for THREE POINTS of recoil comp would make it hard to lift your arm, if it were just weight we were talking about. Besides, you could get that effect by strapping a weight to your wrist, no surgery required.
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 20 2009, 11:57 AM)
I imagine the weight required for THREE POINTS of recoil comp would make it hard to lift your arm, if it were just weight we were talking about. Besides, you could get that effect by strapping a weight to your wrist, no surgery required.
Gaah
As much as I hate this faux realism creep, I'll participate.
The weight isnt the only factor. Its the angular velocity with with the weights spin that is probably the kicker.
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Mar 20 2009, 11:59 AM)
Gaah
As much as I hate this faux realism creep, I'll participate.
The weight isnt the only factor. Its the angular velocity with with the weights spin that is probably the kicker.
As much as I hate this faux realism creep, I'll participate.
The weight isnt the only factor. Its the angular velocity with with the weights spin that is probably the kicker.
My point exactly. What I meant was if it were weight alone (not spinning) and not debilitatingly heavy, it wouldn't be enough for that much RC. Ergo, they must be spinning.
well, technically you could add under barrel weight, over barrel weight, and where the hell else you can fit them too . . including on your arms *snickers*
but because that would be silly, the rules say no, let's leave it at that. it's NOT the weight, but sentry-fuck-all force that gives recoil compensation
but because that would be silly, the rules say no, let's leave it at that. it's NOT the weight, but sentry-fuck-all force that gives recoil compensation
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 20 2009, 12:10 PM)
<snip>
sentry-fuck-all force
<snip>
sentry-fuck-all force
<snip>
Sentry?
sentry-fuck-all
centrifugal
centrifugal
That.... was bad. Very, very bad.
...But then, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of the beholder
...But then, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of the beholder
There's a picture of the cyberarm gyromount in 336 of the BBB.
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 20 2009, 02:07 PM)
There's a picture of the cyberarm gyromount in 336 of the BBB.
Not a very good one, I'm afraid :-/
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 20 2009, 09:46 PM)
That.... was bad. Very, very bad.
...But then, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of the beholder
...But then, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of the beholder
thank you, thank you, i will be here all . . ah fuggit, probably untill i die . . yeah, no, i got no life . .
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Mar 20 2009, 11:35 AM)
It can't work that way if you want to stay as realisitic as possible. The 'signals in all directions' bit is only happening in the neural portion of muscular control. Only the signals that are desired - once the countersignal is filtered - reach the chemical transmission phase that connects neural activity with muscular action. Because of the refractory times of muscle fibers, this is the only way the system could operate and still give faster than human reactions.
Realism in Shadowrun? Perish the thought!
At any rate, the explanation given seems to imply that the 'ware can't balance the neural signals quite right, which is why muscles get random, sudden, strong, but very brief chemical signals. In other words, lots of twitching.
So could someone post sample loadouts? I have no problem going down to .0001 Essence 
if you really have no qualms about that, go full body replacement and make it ALL modular as hell.
you now can do plug and pray with whatever you need him to do O.o
you now can do plug and pray with whatever you need him to do O.o
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 29 2009, 03:22 PM)
if you really have no qualms about that, go full body replacement and make it ALL modular as hell.
you now can do plug and pray with whatever you need him to do O.o
you now can do plug and pray with whatever you need him to do O.o
It's been my impression that someone who wants to go full-body shouldn't start that way - he should instead get the "meat-body" stuff at character creation that he'll still want later down the line (genetic optimization, synaptic boosters, etc.) or, if allowed to get Betaware at character creation, start with as much of that as he can afford and leave the rest meat until he has the money/contacts to improve it as well. Even with Born Rich, full-body Betaware is just too expensive for a starting toon to swing.
In other words, if you plan on full-body Betaware or above, you shouldn't get standard/alphaware at all - it's massively inefficient.
On a side note, opinions on Born Rich, Black Market Pipeline and Restricted Gear?
[Edit:] For a full body replacement, should I get a Synaptic Booster instead of MBW to take advantage of the Essence discount?
[Edit 2:] Are Bone Lacing and Bone Density compatible with a cyber torso?
QUOTE (crazyconscript @ Mar 20 2009, 05:50 PM)
I've always had the image of a counterweight system popping out of the wrist, but i see no reason why i cant be housed in the hand and fold backwards or something. Or you could just say that the cyberhand includes the wrist which was always my imagining
In previous editions, it was noted that cyberlimbs always included the joint attaching the limb.
Cyberarms included the shoulder, lower arms the elbow and hands the wrists.
This isn't stated in SR4, but i still regard it as a valid point in my own game.
believe it or not, all of the bone stuff has allways been fully compatible with replacements . .
i would go with move by wire, because then you do not need skillwires. also, nice dodge bonus.
that means you save karma on skills. and if you have certain things on char gen, you can have allmost all skills that are possible about 2 days in game time later for cheap.
i would go with move by wire, because then you do not need skillwires. also, nice dodge bonus.
that means you save karma on skills. and if you have certain things on char gen, you can have allmost all skills that are possible about 2 days in game time later for cheap.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 29 2009, 03:52 PM)
believe it or not, all of the bone stuff has allways been fully compatible with replacements . .
i would go with move by wire, because then you do not need skillwires. also, nice dodge bonus.
that means you save karma on skills. and if you have certain things on char gen, you can have allmost all skills that are possible about 2 days in game time later for cheap.
i would go with move by wire, because then you do not need skillwires. also, nice dodge bonus.
that means you save karma on skills. and if you have certain things on char gen, you can have allmost all skills that are possible about 2 days in game time later for cheap.
I can get more defense dice with Gymnastics Dodge, a Synthcardium, Neo-EPO and high Clubs skill (spec. parry). And skillwires aren't that important when skills are practically all you spend Karma on
they are only important, if you wanna go swiss army knife, that much is true.
and yes, there's better ways for defense. BUT IT'S STILL MOVE BY WIRE!
Rule of Cool:
Cool Trumps EVERYTHING ^^
and yes, there's better ways for defense. BUT IT'S STILL MOVE BY WIRE!
Rule of Cool:
Cool Trumps EVERYTHING ^^
I personally think someone with full replacement + casemods (no skull, but a really nice helmet) + eyeband is the epitome of cool
[Edit:] Is Bone Lacing/Density compatible with cyberlimbs? I'd love a citation either way.
[Edit:] Is Bone Lacing/Density compatible with cyberlimbs? I'd love a citation either way.
I would like to see the loadouts comparitive dice pools for Full Dodge vs Gymnastic Dodge vs Parry and see who gets the largest dice pool.
My impression:
Gymnastics Dodge > Parry > Full Dodge.
Obvious this doesn't allow for set circumstances (such as room for movement, etc - but by RAW I'm not sure how much that would come into play).
My take is that there's a plethora of cyber which allows you to improve athletics very easily and to a limited extent martial arts (I'm thinking genetech in Augmentation). There's only a limited amount of items which enable you to boost Dodge dicepools directly (MBW is the only one springing to mind easily).
I'm not taking Magic into account here however.
- J.
My impression:
Gymnastics Dodge > Parry > Full Dodge.
Obvious this doesn't allow for set circumstances (such as room for movement, etc - but by RAW I'm not sure how much that would come into play).
My take is that there's a plethora of cyber which allows you to improve athletics very easily and to a limited extent martial arts (I'm thinking genetech in Augmentation). There's only a limited amount of items which enable you to boost Dodge dicepools directly (MBW is the only one springing to mind easily).
I'm not taking Magic into account here however.
- J.
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Mar 20 2009, 02:41 AM)
Get full limbs, max out AGI, probably increase STR as far as needed for additional recoil compensation.
Other interesting gadgets would be a nanohive (if you're going down the sensor sam route, get a hold of some Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanites, but get an Attention Coprocessor first), an Autoinjector and cyberlimb armor (which is, however, quite demanding in capacity).
As far as damage reduction is concerned, i think Platelet Factory is the most cost-effective, even though a Blood Circuit Control System is more efficient as far as synergy effects with a trauma damper are concerned- but it is prohibitively expensive Essence-wise, so it may very well not be an option for you.
But i'd get REA as high as possible before that anyway, along with Dodge and/or Acrobatics (Syntharcadium comes in handy here)- better not to get hit in the first place than to soak damage.
Hm, if you use standard grade ware, that wouldn't leave you with much more Essence to spend, but there's some rather nifty geneware around.
Synch, React and Genetic Optimization might be particularly interesting.
That should, along with eyes and ears, provide a good basis for most tasks you'll face.
If you want something more subtle than UWB radar, use ultrasound sensors passively (great for detecting opposing ultraound sensors!) and probably get one of those bioware thermosense organs to detect hidden enemies.
That should be about all you need.
You get a skilled shooter who can avoid getting hit, reacts swiftly and is perceptive as hell, along with the ability to handle a lot of non-combative physical tasks such as running, climbing, jumping and so on (thanks, Syntharcadium!) and who can sneak around a bit, so you'll have all of the basic samurai tasks covered.
Other interesting gadgets would be a nanohive (if you're going down the sensor sam route, get a hold of some Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanites, but get an Attention Coprocessor first), an Autoinjector and cyberlimb armor (which is, however, quite demanding in capacity).
As far as damage reduction is concerned, i think Platelet Factory is the most cost-effective, even though a Blood Circuit Control System is more efficient as far as synergy effects with a trauma damper are concerned- but it is prohibitively expensive Essence-wise, so it may very well not be an option for you.
But i'd get REA as high as possible before that anyway, along with Dodge and/or Acrobatics (Syntharcadium comes in handy here)- better not to get hit in the first place than to soak damage.
Hm, if you use standard grade ware, that wouldn't leave you with much more Essence to spend, but there's some rather nifty geneware around.
Synch, React and Genetic Optimization might be particularly interesting.
That should, along with eyes and ears, provide a good basis for most tasks you'll face.
If you want something more subtle than UWB radar, use ultrasound sensors passively (great for detecting opposing ultraound sensors!) and probably get one of those bioware thermosense organs to detect hidden enemies.
That should be about all you need.
You get a skilled shooter who can avoid getting hit, reacts swiftly and is perceptive as hell, along with the ability to handle a lot of non-combative physical tasks such as running, climbing, jumping and so on (thanks, Syntharcadium!) and who can sneak around a bit, so you'll have all of the basic samurai tasks covered.
I was looking at this but the SR4 rulebook states you can't use limbs with strength/agility augmentations above 3 without a cyber torso:
QUOTE (BBB)
Only characters with a cybertorso can have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3.
Has this been fixed in SR4A? If I have other ware that brings up a character's attributes to the same rating as a cyberlimb, I fail to see whats the issue personally....
I would like a way to get maxed AGI, REA and still have room for two cyberlimbs, complete with cyberarm slides and gyromounts....
- J.
There's a loophole of sorts.
if you get optimized limbs or whatever they are called, they do not count as enhanced.
so you can get the arm on a human up to STR6 and then get rating 3 enhancement up to strenngth 9.
and the ENHANCEMENT is NOT HIGHER THAN THREE . . so you do NOT need a Torso . . yeah, it's cheese, i know *g*
if you get optimized limbs or whatever they are called, they do not count as enhanced.
so you can get the arm on a human up to STR6 and then get rating 3 enhancement up to strenngth 9.
and the ENHANCEMENT is NOT HIGHER THAN THREE . . so you do NOT need a Torso . . yeah, it's cheese, i know *g*
Found it - in Augmentation. Cheers. Dunno how I missed that.
Even so, I'm trying to come up with a build that is elven, has near maxed out agility (i.e. 12+), uber reaction and cyberarms with gyromounts and no less than 10 bp in Martial Arts and Ambidexterity. It's a delicate balancing act - I'm thinking biocompatibility (cyberware) is also the way to go.
Even with the optimised limbs in Augmentation, I can't seem to find an easy way to exceed AGI 11 without either a cyber torso or genetic optimisation (agility)/surge bonuses/exceptional attribute or the like
One a sidenote, does Synthacardium (3) only work if you have 6 in gymnastics/Athletics group? My build has a rating 4 so wouldn't that mean I can't get a benefit greater than 2 dice?
- J.
Even so, I'm trying to come up with a build that is elven, has near maxed out agility (i.e. 12+), uber reaction and cyberarms with gyromounts and no less than 10 bp in Martial Arts and Ambidexterity. It's a delicate balancing act - I'm thinking biocompatibility (cyberware) is also the way to go.
Even with the optimised limbs in Augmentation, I can't seem to find an easy way to exceed AGI 11 without either a cyber torso or genetic optimisation (agility)/surge bonuses/exceptional attribute or the like
One a sidenote, does Synthacardium (3) only work if you have 6 in gymnastics/Athletics group? My build has a rating 4 so wouldn't that mean I can't get a benefit greater than 2 dice?
- J.
Metagenetic Improvement,
Gentic Optimization,
Exceptional Attribute.
Now you are at 10 Agility on the Elf.
Then get the Cyber-Arms with Agility 10 and enhancement 3 for 13 Agility? O.o
Or Muscle-Stuff/Suprathoid Gland for example.
What does the Synthacardium state?
Usually, everything that does not, directly, add to skill is not limited by anything.
Gentic Optimization,
Exceptional Attribute.
Now you are at 10 Agility on the Elf.
Then get the Cyber-Arms with Agility 10 and enhancement 3 for 13 Agility? O.o
Or Muscle-Stuff/Suprathoid Gland for example.
What does the Synthacardium state?
Usually, everything that does not, directly, add to skill is not limited by anything.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 12 2009, 11:30 AM)
Metagenetic Improvement,
Gentic Optimization,
Exceptional Attribute.
Now you are at 10 Agility on the Elf.
Then get the Cyber-Arms with Agility 10 and enhancement 3 for 13 Agility? O.o
Or Muscle-Stuff/Suprathoid Gland for example.
What does the Synthacardium state?
Usually, everything that does not, directly, add to skill is not limited by anything.
Gentic Optimization,
Exceptional Attribute.
Now you are at 10 Agility on the Elf.
Then get the Cyber-Arms with Agility 10 and enhancement 3 for 13 Agility? O.o
Or Muscle-Stuff/Suprathoid Gland for example.
What does the Synthacardium state?
Usually, everything that does not, directly, add to skill is not limited by anything.
Actually, the math is wrong. Those three would bring the base agility to 11. O.o. Augmented maximum of 16 (rounds up?). Craaaazy.
EDIT: But I see what you mean - get racial unaugmented maximum above 8 through any of the above. Increase limbs to 9. Add rating 3 agility enhancenment. Voila - agility 12 limbs. It's worth noting that you can get agility 11 optimised cyberlimbs without Restricted Gear (avail 12). My only downside is I'd like to see that agility matching the rest of the body - so I'm leaning towards using Muscle Toner 4 with Restricted Gear.
I could do that, but then I'd lose on my martial arts (I'm picturing a more Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium than John Woo 'Akimbo' style gunslinger).
The thing that compounds with the qualities further is also the necessity of Restricted Gear for stuff like Muscle Toner 4 (unless you have a lenient GM on starting gear).
I should post my build when I get more time...
Synthacardium is a positive dice pool modifier to the Athletics roll. I didn't think there was a limit on modifiers, only bonuses to the skill rating? Or do I have that wrong.
- J.
ah, yes, elves get +2 to agility and +1 to charisma right?
i think i got that mixed up somewhere.
Yes, Elves are twitch-gamers. Main-Problem i have with them is, that many usefull-skills use agility as linked attribute, and with that set-up, he would DEFAULT to 8 dice i think . .
But yes, do post that built in here.
We'll be happy to *ahem* offer helpfull critic ^^
i think i got that mixed up somewhere.
Yes, Elves are twitch-gamers. Main-Problem i have with them is, that many usefull-skills use agility as linked attribute, and with that set-up, he would DEFAULT to 8 dice i think . .
But yes, do post that built in here.
We'll be happy to *ahem* offer helpfull critic ^^
Ahh jesus I'm off. Elves have agility 7, Charisma 8 max naturally. I don't even know how I missed that. Urggh...
Anyway.... conceptually I'm aiming for something like a Grammaton Cleric. I'm adept/cyber agnostic but my math works out more favorable using cyber. This may change with the recent SR4A
rules where they reduced the cost of adept powers but since I don't have it and won't be using them, its a non-issue.
I'm picturing a character with absurdly high dodge ability, awesome shooting with twin Steyr TMPs (with gas vent 3 and melee hardening at a minimum) and if all else fails, clubbing them with the pistols. I'd like to give Close Quarters Combat group and some points with the Stealth group but even defaulting on an absurdly high Agility, I could care less for the moment. I've had to cut skills to the bare essentials to get the spread I'm after (maybe too much).
Very loosely:
20 dice to Automatics rolls, excluding smartlinks and vision enhancement mods.
17 dice to Gymnastics Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Parry.
I'd like to give full tricked out cybereyes and ears and attention co-processors but I'm tight for cash atm - plus its trivial to setup so I haven't worried about it.
Off the top of my head, total cost so far is 397 BP - not enough for contacts, guns or armor. Clearly it needs a bit of tweaking but I think that's enough to get an idea of what I'm trying to achieve.
I'm open to any/all criticism here.
------------------------------------------
Race: Elf (30BP)
Attributes: (200BP)
Body: 4 (6)
Agility: 7(11)[11]
Reaction: 4(9)
Strength: 3[9]
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 1
Willpower: 4
Edge: 1 (meh can raise it later)
Essence: 0.21
Initiative: 11(13)
IP: 1(3)
Positive Qualities:
Ambidexterity
Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner 4)
Biocompatibility (Cyberware)
Martial Arts: 15 (Krav Maga - Ready Weapon As a Free Action, Take Aim As A Free Action, -1 to shooting into melee) --> I'd like more but this is all that fits.
Maneouvers: Iajitsu, Multi-Strike, Two Weapon Style, Vicious Blow, Set-Up, Finishing Move
Negative Qualities
Addiction (Novacoke, Moderate): 10
Augmentation Addict: 10
Combat Monster: 10
Incompetent (Hacking): 5
(No real reason for these. I just like the above flaws. In all honesty I'll probably change to In Debt to get more cash. Funnily, this will be more appropriate to the background story I have in mind anyway)
Cyberware/Bioware: Essence Cost: 5.79 (This will cost 41BP alone).
Two cyberarms (optimised - Agility 8, Strength 6, Rating 3 Agility and Strength enhancement, Cyberarm Slide, Cyberarm Gyromount)
Reaction Enhancers (2)
Wired Reflexes (2)
Muscle Toner (4)
Synthacardium (3)
Reflex Recorder (Automatics)
Genetic Optimisation (Agility)
Skills: (126BP)
Automatics: 6 (Machine Pistols +2)
Athletics Skill Group: 4
Unarmed Combat: 4 (Krav Maga +2)
Clubs: 4 (Parrying +2)
Perception: 3
Dodge: 4 (Ranged Combat +2)
cheers
- J.
Anyway.... conceptually I'm aiming for something like a Grammaton Cleric. I'm adept/cyber agnostic but my math works out more favorable using cyber. This may change with the recent SR4A
rules where they reduced the cost of adept powers but since I don't have it and won't be using them, its a non-issue.
I'm picturing a character with absurdly high dodge ability, awesome shooting with twin Steyr TMPs (with gas vent 3 and melee hardening at a minimum) and if all else fails, clubbing them with the pistols. I'd like to give Close Quarters Combat group and some points with the Stealth group but even defaulting on an absurdly high Agility, I could care less for the moment. I've had to cut skills to the bare essentials to get the spread I'm after (maybe too much).
Very loosely:
20 dice to Automatics rolls, excluding smartlinks and vision enhancement mods.
17 dice to Gymnastics Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Parry.
I'd like to give full tricked out cybereyes and ears and attention co-processors but I'm tight for cash atm - plus its trivial to setup so I haven't worried about it.
Off the top of my head, total cost so far is 397 BP - not enough for contacts, guns or armor. Clearly it needs a bit of tweaking but I think that's enough to get an idea of what I'm trying to achieve.
I'm open to any/all criticism here.
------------------------------------------
Race: Elf (30BP)
Attributes: (200BP)
Body: 4 (6)
Agility: 7(11)[11]
Reaction: 4(9)
Strength: 3[9]
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 1
Willpower: 4
Edge: 1 (meh can raise it later)
Essence: 0.21
Initiative: 11(13)
IP: 1(3)
Positive Qualities:
Ambidexterity
Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner 4)
Biocompatibility (Cyberware)
Martial Arts: 15 (Krav Maga - Ready Weapon As a Free Action, Take Aim As A Free Action, -1 to shooting into melee) --> I'd like more but this is all that fits.
Maneouvers: Iajitsu, Multi-Strike, Two Weapon Style, Vicious Blow, Set-Up, Finishing Move
Negative Qualities
Addiction (Novacoke, Moderate): 10
Augmentation Addict: 10
Combat Monster: 10
Incompetent (Hacking): 5
(No real reason for these. I just like the above flaws. In all honesty I'll probably change to In Debt to get more cash. Funnily, this will be more appropriate to the background story I have in mind anyway)
Cyberware/Bioware: Essence Cost: 5.79 (This will cost 41BP alone).
Two cyberarms (optimised - Agility 8, Strength 6, Rating 3 Agility and Strength enhancement, Cyberarm Slide, Cyberarm Gyromount)
Reaction Enhancers (2)
Wired Reflexes (2)
Muscle Toner (4)
Synthacardium (3)
Reflex Recorder (Automatics)
Genetic Optimisation (Agility)
Skills: (126BP)
Automatics: 6 (Machine Pistols +2)
Athletics Skill Group: 4
Unarmed Combat: 4 (Krav Maga +2)
Clubs: 4 (Parrying +2)
Perception: 3
Dodge: 4 (Ranged Combat +2)
cheers
- J.
The Jake, remember that if you are a SURGE character you can get Biocompatability as a positive Surge ability along with Metagenetic Optimization. The SURGE-based Metagenetic Optimization not only raises the max attribute by yet another point, it also gives you the free point. 
If you want top go all out with twinkage, look for the thread with the quadruple wielded SMG'S *snickers*
QUOTE (Wasabi @ Apr 12 2009, 07:55 PM)
The Jake, remember that if you are a SURGE character you can get Biocompatability as a positive Surge ability along with Metagenetic Optimization. The SURGE-based Metagenetic Optimization not only raises the max attribute by yet another point, it also gives you the free point.
True but I'd still have to give up Restricted Gear and 5 BP of Martial Arts... the loss of Muscle Toner 4 hurts the build too much.
There was a whole raft of other stuff I'd LIKE to buy or have fitted in somehow:
Neo-EPO, Reakt, Pushed, Sideways, etc.
Anyways the above is more of an experiment to see how I could combine a very high agility + twin cyberarms to make a functional street samurai in the vein of Equilibrium. It's actually quite hard to get it to a point I'm happy with.
- J.
That's the built in balancing for you *shrugs*
Any other feedback on my build? Anything I haven't factored in to optimise it further?
- J.
- J.
Nothing i can see right off the bat.
Your modified Agility is to high. Augmented max is 10. You need to go surged or somehow get the points for Genetic Opti or Exceptional Agility.
I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).
*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.
I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).
*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.
Ah, right, as of SR4, Attributes are rounded down . .
He looks like a pretty top-notch Grammaton Cleric to me. Something between him and this one cyborg-badass priest guy from a manga I read now and then(with the heavy cybernetics and all.)
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Apr 13 2009, 06:13 PM)
Your modified Agility is to high. Augmented max is 10. You need to go surged or somehow get the points for Genetic Opti or Exceptional Agility.
I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).
*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.
I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).
*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.
Will do. It's worth it in hindsight. I may post the gun I plan on him using soon too...
- J.
Here is the pistol of choice for all aspiring Grammaton Clerics:
The custom look was originally intended for staredowns (+2 mod per weapon when drawn (+4 total) + elven charisma would be impressive I thought, but I ran out of points). Ideally I'd make it undetectable to MADs but I can't do that without using additional restrictive gear. Recoil compensation on this weapon alone is 5 before factoring in gyromounts and strength.
I'm not entirely sure on the legality of having two grip mods - I'm thinking most GMs wouldn't have an issue with the above.
- J.
QUOTE
FN 5-7C 600
- barrel mount: gas vent 3 400
- underbarrel mount: laser sight 100
- extended clip (25%) 500
- level 2 custom look 1000
- internal smartgun system 600
- Firing selection change (FA) 300
- melee hardening 300
- personalised grip 100
- gecko grip 100
Total cost: 4k
- barrel mount: gas vent 3 400
- underbarrel mount: laser sight 100
- extended clip (25%) 500
- level 2 custom look 1000
- internal smartgun system 600
- Firing selection change (FA) 300
- melee hardening 300
- personalised grip 100
- gecko grip 100
Total cost: 4k
The custom look was originally intended for staredowns (+2 mod per weapon when drawn (+4 total) + elven charisma would be impressive I thought, but I ran out of points). Ideally I'd make it undetectable to MADs but I can't do that without using additional restrictive gear. Recoil compensation on this weapon alone is 5 before factoring in gyromounts and strength.
I'm not entirely sure on the legality of having two grip mods - I'm thinking most GMs wouldn't have an issue with the above.
- J.
Nice. The 5-7C is my fav machine pistol and I have lots of build outs on it. I take it you mean topmount instead of underbarrel mount for the laser sight, it being an MP and all (no underbarrel slot). I like how you went with lots of 1 point modifications, something I do also since it seems most of the 2 and 3 point mods are not worth it.
Hmm, havent checked this thread in a while but this looks interesting!
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs
-Unless they changed it in SR4A or an errata i'm unaware of, reaction enhancers dont stack with wired reflexes
-Do you really need all of those maneuvers? Thats 12BP invested there, and i think it could probably be used better elsewhere for a truly maxed build (like, say, surged metagenic improvment...)
-To raise reaction, make him addicted to snuff, effectively raising reaction by 1 since he never stops
-Why do you have both the athletics and dodge skills so high? And also that synthacardium? If you are going for gymnastics dodges then i can see it, but then why get the dodge skill?
-I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs
-Unless they changed it in SR4A or an errata i'm unaware of, reaction enhancers dont stack with wired reflexes
-Do you really need all of those maneuvers? Thats 12BP invested there, and i think it could probably be used better elsewhere for a truly maxed build (like, say, surged metagenic improvment...)
-To raise reaction, make him addicted to snuff, effectively raising reaction by 1 since he never stops
-Why do you have both the athletics and dodge skills so high? And also that synthacardium? If you are going for gymnastics dodges then i can see it, but then why get the dodge skill?
-I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks
Good point on the Muscle Toner and the Arms, but RE and Wired do stack again, as far as i know.
Granted, that's about as far as i could throw you i am afraid . . .
Granted, that's about as far as i could throw you i am afraid . . .
QUOTE (crazyconscript @ Apr 14 2009, 12:11 PM)
- I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks
I allowed something similar for my Denver team's Gunslinger Adept.
-paws
QUOTE (crazyconscript @ Apr 14 2009, 04:11 PM)
Hmm, havent checked this thread in a while but this looks interesting!
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs
The rest of the body is propped up to AGI 11 with the Muscle Toner and listed in (). Cyberarms are calculated seperately and listed in [].
In any case, nothing under muscle toner or cyberarms doesn't state they aren't compatible. If you want to split hairs, there's nothing to stay that they don't stack...
QUOTE
-Unless they changed it in SR4A or an errata i'm unaware of, reaction enhancers dont stack with wired reflexes
My BBB explicitly states Reaction Enhancers do stack with other forms initiative enhancement. AFAIK, contrary to popular belief - this includes synaptic boosters if you want to get picky (nothing under either item states they are not compatible with the other). Unless someone can provide a direct quote to contradict that....
QUOTE
-Do you really need all of those maneuvers? Thats 12BP invested there, and i think it could probably be used better elsewhere for a truly maxed build (like, say, surged metagenic improvment...)
That was my mistake - I misread the rules in Arsenal. For some reason I assumed you get 2 martial arts maneouvers with 5BP - rather that 2 maneouvers is a limit you can purchase, not how many you begin with. I'll scrap those. Thanks for the pickup
QUOTE
-To raise reaction, make him addicted to snuff, effectively raising reaction by 1 since he never stops
At reaction 9 he's hit the augmented maximum. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot exceed that, even with drugs.
QUOTE
-Why do you have both the athletics and dodge skills so high? And also that synthacardium? If you are going for gymnastics dodges then i can see it, but then why get the dodge skill?
While its not stated in the rules, one GM would easily infer that you can't use Gymnastics Dodge every time (e.g. if there's a space limitation). I haven't checked, but I suspect my GM would agree. So I pick all 3. Is that just me? Or am I better off trying to stick with one form of Dodge only?
QUOTE
-I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks
I could probably swing it with my GM. I just used Parry because it increased overall defensive ability and was RAW legal.
Again, nice pickup though.- J.
Thinking about it, a good, basic Sam loadout, using SR4/Augmentation, could look like this(this is RAW legal, with Availability considered:)
Eye mods: Thermographic, Smartlink, Flare compensation(.3 ess)
Ceramic Bone Lacing(1.2 ess)
Synthacardium Lv. 2 or 3(.2-.3)
Wired Reflexes Lv. 1 or 2(2-3)
Muscle Augmentation Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)
Total: 4-5.15 essence(Normal.) Alphaware will lower these, of course-nuyen wise, normal, this loadout will run around 86250-117250 I believe. More for some Alphaware. If you want room to improve, either hit Wired 1 or suck up the extra 32k and get Wired 2 Alphaware.
This here could take care of a lot of things.
Eye mods aren't too many, but you can always load a pair of lv. 3 contacts up with some stuff, or glasses. The Smartlink is the thing that adds a big Availability boost to the items, so with that in the eye itself(and a sam should have something that he can't lose normally), it will help.
Bone Lacing adds a sweet +2 damage resistance, and better Unarmed damage if they go that route. Ceramic also is undetectable by MAD scanners.
Synthacardium helps all Athletics, including Gymnastics Dodge.
Reflexes give the all-important extra passes. Expensive, but sooo useful. The more, the better.
Muscle Toner/Augmentation helps raw stats a bit.
For an extra 10k and a bit of essence, one could throw a Reflex Recorder in here.
I was considering making lists for different kinds of sams and popping them up somewhere for the hell of it if I get bored.
Eye mods: Thermographic, Smartlink, Flare compensation(.3 ess)
Ceramic Bone Lacing(1.2 ess)
Synthacardium Lv. 2 or 3(.2-.3)
Wired Reflexes Lv. 1 or 2(2-3)
Muscle Augmentation Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)
Total: 4-5.15 essence(Normal.) Alphaware will lower these, of course-nuyen wise, normal, this loadout will run around 86250-117250 I believe. More for some Alphaware. If you want room to improve, either hit Wired 1 or suck up the extra 32k and get Wired 2 Alphaware.
This here could take care of a lot of things.
Eye mods aren't too many, but you can always load a pair of lv. 3 contacts up with some stuff, or glasses. The Smartlink is the thing that adds a big Availability boost to the items, so with that in the eye itself(and a sam should have something that he can't lose normally), it will help.
Bone Lacing adds a sweet +2 damage resistance, and better Unarmed damage if they go that route. Ceramic also is undetectable by MAD scanners.
Synthacardium helps all Athletics, including Gymnastics Dodge.
Reflexes give the all-important extra passes. Expensive, but sooo useful. The more, the better.
Muscle Toner/Augmentation helps raw stats a bit.
For an extra 10k and a bit of essence, one could throw a Reflex Recorder in here.
I was considering making lists for different kinds of sams and popping them up somewhere for the hell of it if I get bored.
This is the thread for it.
Is it worth bringing up cyber-adept builds here as well?
Originally, my Grammaton Cleric idea was an adept but the more I looked at it, I got more mileage going the cyber route. Yes I don't get improved ability, but attribute limits are laughable when you throw in Metagenic Improvement, Improved Attribute and Genetic Optimisation. Adepts have been significantly nerfed in SR4 with the cap on ability increases to 1.5x the skill rating.
I really don't see what adepts offer when compared to a cybernetic equivalent except for very, very specific builds. By design, you have to overspecialise and in doing so, lose survivability.
- J.
Is it worth bringing up cyber-adept builds here as well?
Originally, my Grammaton Cleric idea was an adept but the more I looked at it, I got more mileage going the cyber route. Yes I don't get improved ability, but attribute limits are laughable when you throw in Metagenic Improvement, Improved Attribute and Genetic Optimisation. Adepts have been significantly nerfed in SR4 with the cap on ability increases to 1.5x the skill rating.
I really don't see what adepts offer when compared to a cybernetic equivalent except for very, very specific builds. By design, you have to overspecialise and in doing so, lose survivability.
- J.
Bio-adepts are really awesome in this.
I'd stick to bio only, though, unless it's just eyemods or other little tiny things you are looking at(though-occasionally it can be worth it, since Essence is halved of the lower thing. Ive found it to be the case sometimes). A good bio-adept loadout(again, a basic samlike build):
Synaptic Booster Lv. 1(.5)
Muscle Aug Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)
Synthacardium Lv. 3(.3)
Aluminum Bone Lacing, Alphaware(.8 essence halved to .4)
Total Essence: 2. 4 essence left, which is 4 Magic afterward. Since you have your Reflexes and stats, it's all gravy to what you purchase with that 4.
However, in 4A, the adept powers are lowered-1.5 gets you 1 level of Reflexes. If you use the optional Geas rule in Street Magic(the old rule-the one where your power gets 25% off it's cost, like in SR3)-that 1.5 can be lowered again to around 1.25(after the rounding nonsense, since 25% of it is an odd number, and adept powers go in .25 of a point. The exact cost would be 1.125, which a reaaally cool GM might let you round to 1.) It's a little better now.
If you don't mind splashing the money and would rather stay MAD friendly, ditch the Aluminum and a couple levels of the Synthacardium and get Bone Density 2 or something. It could work as well.
I have one pure adept that is actually very, very good in his field(close combat), but he does lack the variety of my sam. In a knockdown dragout fight, they would be about even. But the sam can do a whole lot more on the side. The Adept, though, has a few little tricks up his sleeve that my sam doesn't have. Adepts are really good, but yeah, I find a bit more specialized in general.
I'd stick to bio only, though, unless it's just eyemods or other little tiny things you are looking at(though-occasionally it can be worth it, since Essence is halved of the lower thing. Ive found it to be the case sometimes). A good bio-adept loadout(again, a basic samlike build):
Synaptic Booster Lv. 1(.5)
Muscle Aug Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)
Synthacardium Lv. 3(.3)
Aluminum Bone Lacing, Alphaware(.8 essence halved to .4)
Total Essence: 2. 4 essence left, which is 4 Magic afterward. Since you have your Reflexes and stats, it's all gravy to what you purchase with that 4.
However, in 4A, the adept powers are lowered-1.5 gets you 1 level of Reflexes. If you use the optional Geas rule in Street Magic(the old rule-the one where your power gets 25% off it's cost, like in SR3)-that 1.5 can be lowered again to around 1.25(after the rounding nonsense, since 25% of it is an odd number, and adept powers go in .25 of a point. The exact cost would be 1.125, which a reaaally cool GM might let you round to 1.) It's a little better now.
If you don't mind splashing the money and would rather stay MAD friendly, ditch the Aluminum and a couple levels of the Synthacardium and get Bone Density 2 or something. It could work as well.
I have one pure adept that is actually very, very good in his field(close combat), but he does lack the variety of my sam. In a knockdown dragout fight, they would be about even. But the sam can do a whole lot more on the side. The Adept, though, has a few little tricks up his sleeve that my sam doesn't have. Adepts are really good, but yeah, I find a bit more specialized in general.
@ The Jake
Actually, the BBB p.335 does state they are incompatible:
Emphasis added by me, but they dont stack. The point i was trying to make was that for a sam like this, your primary use of agility will be to hit things, and for this you will be using your arms. Ergo having the rest of your body with 11 agility doesnt seem like it is going to help much.
Well here is what i am operating off of, actually on the same page (335):
You can argue that reaction enhancers are not an initiative enhancement since they dont grant IP's, but since they raise reaction which is used to calculate initiative i classify them as initiative enhancement.
You can quite legitimately have all three, its just that i see the synthacardium as a way of boosting the gymnastics dodge as much as possible. Since i am looking at this as a contender for "best street sam" i would rely more on the dodge defense here since you know that is applicable everywhere, and when not dodging in combat you already have high enough attributes to be good at athletics even if you have it at low levels. If you lowered the athletics group to 2-3 which is still a good level for this guy and lost the synthacardium it frees up extra resources for other goodies.
Also noticed something else there with the cyberlimbs: you cant actually fit in all of those enhancements with the limbs capacity.
Cyberlimb Gyromoung: 4
Cyberarm Slide: 8
Strength mod: 3
Agility mod: 3
Total=18
Full cyberarms only have a capacity of 15 i'm afraid
Currently working on my own version of this street-sam special edition, using the move-by-wire system. Will post it when i'm done, see how it works out. So far i have managed to get Reaction 12 and agility 11, with mostly the same skills
Like the gun by the way
QUOTE (The Jake @ Apr 15 2009, 09:05 AM)
The rest of the body is propped up to AGI 11 with the Muscle Toner and listed in (). Cyberarms are calculated seperately and listed in [].
In any case, nothing under muscle toner or cyberarms doesn't state they aren't compatible. If you want to split hairs, there's nothing to stay that they don't stack...
In any case, nothing under muscle toner or cyberarms doesn't state they aren't compatible. If you want to split hairs, there's nothing to stay that they don't stack...
Actually, the BBB p.335 does state they are incompatible:
QUOTE
Cyberlimb Enhancements: All cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and Agility attributes of 3. These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements—enhancements from other cyber- or bioware systems have no effect
Emphasis added by me, but they dont stack. The point i was trying to make was that for a sam like this, your primary use of agility will be to hit things, and for this you will be using your arms. Ergo having the rest of your body with 11 agility doesnt seem like it is going to help much.
QUOTE ( @ Apr 15 2009, 09:05 AM)
My BBB explicitly states Reaction Enhancers do stack with other forms initiative enhancement. AFAIK, contrary to popular belief - this includes synaptic boosters if you want to get picky (nothing under either item states they are not compatible with the other). Unless someone can provide a direct quote to contradict that.
Well here is what i am operating off of, actually on the same page (335):
QUOTE
Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of
Initiative enhancement
Initiative enhancement
You can argue that reaction enhancers are not an initiative enhancement since they dont grant IP's, but since they raise reaction which is used to calculate initiative i classify them as initiative enhancement.
QUOTE ( @ Apr 15 2009, 09:05 AM)
While its not stated in the rules, one GM would easily infer that you can't use Gymnastics Dodge every time (e.g. if there's a space limitation). I haven't checked, but I suspect my GM would agree. So I pick all 3. Is that just me? Or am I better off trying to stick with one form of Dodge only?
You can quite legitimately have all three, its just that i see the synthacardium as a way of boosting the gymnastics dodge as much as possible. Since i am looking at this as a contender for "best street sam" i would rely more on the dodge defense here since you know that is applicable everywhere, and when not dodging in combat you already have high enough attributes to be good at athletics even if you have it at low levels. If you lowered the athletics group to 2-3 which is still a good level for this guy and lost the synthacardium it frees up extra resources for other goodies.
Also noticed something else there with the cyberlimbs: you cant actually fit in all of those enhancements with the limbs capacity.
Cyberlimb Gyromoung: 4
Cyberarm Slide: 8
Strength mod: 3
Agility mod: 3
Total=18
Full cyberarms only have a capacity of 15 i'm afraid
Currently working on my own version of this street-sam special edition, using the move-by-wire system. Will post it when i'm done, see how it works out. So far i have managed to get Reaction 12 and agility 11, with mostly the same skills
Like the gun by the way
Bulk-Modofication?
Wouldnt work i'm afraid. Optimising cyberlimbs raises availability, as does the bulk modification. And with the amount of optimisation he has it is already at availability 12. You could use the bulk mod to fit more stuff in but then you would need to take restricted gear or get less of an attribute boost in the limb
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