SR4A, Reaction Enhancers are compatable with Wired Reflexes again. And as stated, bulk modification on the arms will get you the slots.

I got an Agility: 15, Reaction: 10 Elf sniper/sensor Sammy from hell. Actually, you can't really call him a sniper, since he shoots any firearm/launcher he picks up with 22 (+ Specialization, + Smartgun) dice. Granted, not very hard to get with a 15 Agility but he is good with everything.

How'd you get AGI 15? Care to post the build?

- J.

Ah, so SR4A does allow reaction enhancers to stack with wired reflexes. I don't have access to the book so i wasn't sure.
BUT bulk modification would not be the optimal solution for fitting stuff into limbs in this case.
Availability of full cyberarm: 4
Custom limb attributes: +1 per point over 3(which is where it starts)
bulk modification: +1 per extra capacity
So you could use the bulk mod to get the extra capacity, but the limbs are already at 12 from the custom attributes.

Ok - granted they don't stack. My only reason for the cyberarms were for the gyromounts - I'll be honest. Everything else is negotiable. But my point stands - I can have Muscle Toner apply to the rest of the body. I just never want to be in a situation where I have to use my unaugmented agility.



Read the Reaction Enhancers - p. 334 of the BBB:



Emphasis mine. Looks pretty darn clear to me that you can. If not for Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Accelerators and MBW (which all have the same text you're spouting) then what is the point of the bold text? I'll tell you - the only reason that they say Initiative boosters aren't compatible with other boosters is to prevent munchkins stacking MBW(3) with Synaptic Accelerators(3) to get 7 IPs or more.



Hrmmm.... point taken but I think I'm going the other way. I'm leaning towards scrapping Dodge based on a few posts here and comments in the other Dodge threads. Unless my GM is a truly evil bastard, it should work and is RAW legal.



Bugger! I dunno how I missed that. I deliberately maxed the availability on the limb. Even if I squeezed in metagenic optimisation I'd have to drop STR by 1.

The only way I can see fitting it all is to lose the slide (which is doable given there is a non-cyber variant).



I'd like to see it. Please post it. Thanks on the gun.

- J.

Actually move by wire specifies that it is compatible with reaction enhancers, unlike the others....but meh, InfinityZen just said that SR4A allows them to stack anyway. So no biggie then

Not in a begining character is how. He is in the 800BP thread over on the Community Projects side of the forum.

As for the 15 Agility, Elf (7) with Exceptional Agility (+1), Metegenetic Improve: Agility (+1), Genetic Opti: Agility (+1), Muscle Toner 4 (+4), and Suprathyroid Gland (+1) nets you a 10(15) Agility. He has Genetic Opti: Reaction to end up with a 6(10) and 4 IPs. His equipment cost might be a little off, since I've built and rebuilt it so many times (though the bio and cyber are fine).

He's a good guy, shoots his pistol with 26 dice (or 13 & 11 if going dual welding), his assault rifle with 26 dice, his sniper rifle with 26 dice, his assault cannon with... you guessed it, 26 dice, and his machine gun with... damn, only 24 dice.

Oh, nice!
Thanks, I missed that.

-paws

Well here we go then, my take on this experiment. I have never actually made a Sam who relied on Cyberlimbs quite like this guy before.

Presenting: The "I'm not a cyborg, really!" Street Samurai


First lets look at the attack pool for the primary weapon: the machine pistols
-For most attacks with a single gun, it will be 22 with the smartlink
-With a long burst, it will be 23 with tracers+laser beyond short range
-Doing a full burst at a single target, it is 24 before calculating recoil beyond short range
This is before any negative modifiers (recoil,range,cover etc) however.
For close combat, the cyber-spurs will be the primary weapons with a dice pool of 17 to attack, doing 8P base damage

Dodge skill is 21 for ranged full defense, 19 in close combat without full defense, and 25 with full defense (MBW adds to the skill rating for dodge, not extra dice, therefore they double with full defense: 12+1+6+6)

Initiative of 16
Perception pool of 7 (+2 visual from cyber-eyes)

He has Ultrasound, Thermo + Low-Light vision so almost all vision mods will be negated, plus he has vision magnification for long range shots.

Armour of 12/7, with a body of 5 for damage resistance.
Condition monitor: 13 Physical/10 Stun

Contacts are actually pretty pitiful there, so a skill could probably be lowered to free up more for those.
For advancement,any earned will probably go into activesofts for the move-by-wire's inherent skillwires and alphaware upgrades, while karma is used to upgrade edge/willpower

Oh, and he has his own warped background count. I thought it was fitting considering how close the guy is to becoming a cyber-zombie . Augmentation addict was sooooo tempting....

As a counter to this i started making a troll i am terming "Mr. Frag-It". 2 IP's, 23/23 Stealthy Milspec Armour, 9 Body+2 for damage resistance, and a Semi-Auto grenade launcher with smartgun (and chameleon coating ). He also has enough recoil comp to fire his High-Velocity Ares Alpha (with chameleon coating) without taking any penalties. All with 1 essence left!

Is there any point for getting spurs other than quick access?

Style? O.o
Being able to implant chemical gland and/or drug reservoir that can be filled with something nasty?
One of my most successfull Character Designs in 3rd ed was a Troll with maxed out Strength(16),
Dikote on his Hand-Blade bringing Damage up to 20M and then added GammaScopolamine for another 10D Stun immediately after.
One such blade on each Hand, each with 8 Doses of Gamma Scopolamine.
Meaning i could probably have downed 20 of WHATEVER if i ever got to play him again.
Of course, the Troll-Size Ranger-X Bow with 24M Damage Arrows tipped in the Stuff probably would have helped a lot too ^^

The fact that they are easy to access as implants is the main reason i gave him spurs. Since the characters main shtick would be shooting things in the face, he is going to have his hands occupied with guns. If someone gets close, he can easily drop the guns (disabling the gecko grips) and pop spurs to deal out the pain. Plus they are a lot easier to carry around in addition to other equipment.

I would have loved to have chemicals on the spurs, but he has no capacity left in the limbs and no monies left over

Bit of a stretch, but if one of my characters gets internal blades, he gets the venom sacks and a permit because he uses them to "inject dangerous critters with tranquilizers" ^^

awww, no more comments on the build then?
Although it is only one type of possible street sam build, i tried to continue to make him into the best guy you could get with machine pistols at chargen. I want to see other peoples opinions of whether i succeeded in the improvement.

sorry, i don't know my way around the 4th ed rules/generation system

I had a picture in my head of a Wolverine/Cyber hybrid using Laes coated Cyberspurs....

- J.

I really think you did a damn good job at keeping him awesome at machine pistols while NOT going overboard and squeezing out every last tie to turn him into a one-trick pony. Problem is with squeezing out every last drop are the diminishing returns...eventually you just don't get enough for what you put in.

This guy though, can either shoot you up, cut you up, beat you up(13 dice in a fistfight is certainly not bad), notice things, and dodge like a maniac.

Okay, he's a LITTLE bit of a one-trick-no, maybe 3-trick pony(he's an awesome combat machine both ranged AND close in, but not much else-I consider one-tricks to only really be great at like, literally ONE aspect), but he does have room to grow out with some Karma, after all.

(and regardless what folks say, there is nothing wrong with playing someone who is heavily specialized. It can be a blast sometimes. )

I concur.

When I create a build I don't mind specialising but I try to have 2-3 things he/she can be competent with. You definitely achieved that (and more efficiently than my example) and left more room for growth.

- J.

i can see it now:
NPC looks down goes:"huh, where did that cut come from?"
*snikt*
NPC looks down goes:"huh, where did the cuts come from?"

now i just have to make a character that does that
But, hmmm, i dont think you can synthesize laes since its an awakened drug so he would have to have a refillable gland

Who cares when you have AGI 15 cyberarms?

I did wonder if it could be synthesized. The Awakened bit is a killer.

The concept I was floating as the basis:

Dwarf
+ dermal sheath
+ titanium bone lacing
+ MBW
+ Symbiotes
+ Platelet Factory
+ Trauma Dampener
+ Laes coated spurs.

- J.

Are Venom Sacks out? O.o
In SR3, each sack held 2 Doses of the Compound.
And there was NO LIMIT to their number.
And at 0,05 Essence you could load up with them untill your arms looked ike those in LIIEEFEELD Comics too ^^
And you got to chose which drug you wanted to use, so you could have a sack with laes, one with gammascopolamine, one with fugu . .

And probably the ars cybernetica (sp?) martial art to go along with it.
EDIT: and yes, you can get cyber for drugs to be stored in. They just need to be refilled unless you have a bio-gland that makes the drug/toxin constantly.

Yes, but with that setup, you can chose what kind of drug you want to use and switch out at will.
only thing i really like about the chemical gland is the accompanying immunity to the self produced poison.

I was more partial to Eskrima for this build.

- J.

Afraid i dont have my books with me, so i cant remember what eskrima advantages are. But i'm pretty sure that getting all of that cyber will put you on 250k+ straight off the bat, and you made need a couple of things alphaware to get the essence. I think it could be done (born rich/in debt) but maybe the character would be more suited for the 800BP thread?
Also: Although having titanium bone lacing is damned cool, it renders cyber-spurs obsolete due to having the same damage (S/2+3). Of course, you cant have laes coated hands....
"Okay, here we go!"
"..."
"Why are my covered in something?"

Yep. Pretty much dead on the money (no pun intended).
See the cost in terms of nuyen and essence:

Titanium Bone Lacing 40,000 1.6
Dermal Sheath 3 40,000 1.6
MBW2 85,000 3
Platelet Factories 25,000 0.2
Trauma Dampener 40,000 0.2
Symbiotes (2) 20,000 0.4

Change bone lacing to ceramic and dermal sheath a rating 2 and it becomes a lot more feasible. You still need to look at biocompatibility or alphaware for it to really work however...

The above doesn't include strength and agility enhancements either.

- J.

Why would laes-covered hands NOT work?
You could have your whole natural BODY covered in something.
Just specify sweat as Vector.
But of course, that will be pretty awkward, especially your sex-life will suffer.

DMSO+Laes FTW.

Having said that, I fail to see how the in game date rape drug of choice would not improve your character's sex life.... (ok, that was very wrong, but I couldn't help it).

- J.

Has anyone got a preferred tanking build they use?

- J.

Shadowrun 3rd Ed i could build you Trolls and Orcs that could take a Panther round to the head and complain about a black eye . .
Yes well, i was talking about VOLOUNTARY Sex-Life . .
of course, hookers would work . . have sex, they forget, you disappear . . freebies galore O.o

I'd say for tanks in SR4, you have two things you need:

Dodging
Soaking.

Both of these will make you an effective tank.

For starters, get that Reaction and Body up as high as you can before the diminishing returns eat you. Reaction enhancers, metagenic improvement, and Move by Wire(the latter also helps with Dodge, but beware the Essence cost.) An ork or troll works well here, since neither race takes a Reaction minus. Also, don't worry about Strength. This big guy isn't going to be dishing out the hurt as much as taking it(see below, however), and most of your BP will probably be used up twinking Body and Reaction. Also: Don't forget Willpower! Get this up high too. Remember it adds to Stun meters and makes it easier to resist spells. Tanks need to resist all kinds of damage.

Next up, take Dodge over Gymnastics Dodge. While I am an ultimate fan of the latter, being a big melee fan, this tank-type character isn't really a damage dealer, and you'd rather have the big Dodge skill to double. He'd probably be best with a nice big gun from afar. Give Agility a boost, and hand him a nice big assault rifle, and he'll be a credible enough threat for them to want to attack him. Automatics 4(+2 Assault Rifles) with a Smartlink, and a 4(6) Agility(5(7) for an ork) and have said assault rifle totally beefed up and loaded with nice ammo, and he'll be able to deal nice hurt from afar.

Get Dodge 7 with Aptitude. Specialize in Ranged.

Pick up Dermal Sheath-as high a level as you can afford Essence and Nuyen wise. Do the same for Bone Lacing.

Load up on the most powerful armor, FFBA, PPP, and the whole nine to go along with this.

If you have Quality points left, stuff to make him harder to hit with spells would be highly suggested.

Trauma dampers/etc also help, for if they DO get hit.

Congrats, you have a character with a huge Body score, and tons of armor for soak...if they get past his massive Defense pool to begin with. Being able to hose the oppositon with an assault rifle will make him enough of a threat for them to turn fire on him. Let the tanking fun commence.

The drawback to the cyberlimb version is the fact that while armor stacks, it eats up Capacity quickly and you won't be able to afford the massive Body mods you need. Also, you'd want multiple limbs replaced to be able to get the high Body average. I find the above build, while rather expensive and will use up a lot of nuyen and essence, a better bet.

Tanking as a sam? here are my preferred bits of cyber

For non cyber-limbed characters:
Aluminium bone lacing (titanium maybe, the essence is pretty high for the bonus)
Dermal Sheathing (3 if possible, usually 2)
And maybe the trauma dampener/platelet factories combo if i feel like it. Tanks can excel at many things since this doesnt cost that much as a base...

For cyber-limb characters the solution is quite simple. Full limbs with the armour mod

As for gear, if i dont care about being noticeable it has to be Heavy Milspec Armour. And if dont want to be seen i just give the armour ruthenium coating...

Four cyberlimbs with 2 armour=8,+milspec armour+helmet=26/24 armour. Be a troll and you get an additional +1, then carry around a ballistic shield for an extra +6/+4
Voila! 33/29 armour!

I know orks and trolls rock for the minmax factor, but I can't believe dwarves don't get more of a showing here....

- J.

Not enough Body bonus.
If there was a Dwarf that switched out Strength for Body, it would work out more favourable.
I do like my dwarves, but not as a tank usually O.o
They are too frigging small . . a Troll can tank simply because:"if he is standing in front of you, you are not seen any more"

To be honest, when i make a character that i actually intend on playing in a game, its a dwarf about 50% of the time. Although i love twinkage i dont like the idea of role-playing orks, although trolls can work (dont question my mind ). And dwarves do lose out in terms of min-max potential. I did make a dwarf sammy in 5 mins once though for a quick one shot. He could punch people for more damage than shoot his gun. His catchphrase ended up being "Something is getting punched!!!" cause he kept getting tasered

As for punching things: yes, dwarves, simply because their height puts their shoulder/punching at the same height your nuts are usually.
But you can'T use someone as a meatshield if he's only half as tall as you!

True, but then if all you want is something to hide behind i think heavy combat drones/trucks provide good cover too. Its pretty easy to gets your riggers hands on 3-4 steel lynx's and a vehicle with 20 armour to cart them around in.
I see the tanks job as being the one to draw fire, not simply be mobile cover. And a dwarf can provide that pretty well, even if they dont register at the same threat level as a troll when the corp-sec spots the team.

Hmm, interesting team dynamic:
-"Pansy" troll hacker/mage (S/B min at 5)
-Dwarf tanker Street Sam
-Ork Face
Not exactly your normal runner team i dont think, would be interesting though

Also this reminds me of combat hackers who use AR, they can make decent sammies sometimes. I made an ork one who was pretty damned decent in combat. He had wired II (so he didnt need to slip into VR for a turn), and made use of a tacnet with his posse of LEBD drones and was no mean hand with an SMG. I'll see if i can find his sheet somewhere.

Well, I play our team's sam, who is an elf. He punches/kicks for harder than the other guy shoots an HMG(11P base, with 16-17 dice, the latter with Kick Attack, to do it.) I wouldn't call him a tank, nor a glass cannon(Body 5, +3 Damage resist with Titanium Bone lacing, and a +1 from Suprathyroid). He does sport an armor jacket(8/6), PPP 1/3(9/9) FFBA 2(4/1) and Bone Lacing(total armor 14/11). So while awesome, he's not in Ubertank territory. (His defense pools run around 8 for non-full ranged up to 18 for full melee, and stuff in between. He's got several martial arts, including some Escrima, as he enjoys cutting things as well as smashing them sometimes. He uses guns if necessary, but does not prefer them.)

He's the team's muscle(9 Strength-and this can go higher the way I have him set up), but isn't a one-trick; he has a great Armorer skill which he uses to tweak up the team's weapons(and boy, does he have a big order from the guys now ), as well as decent enough social skills, though he's far from the party's face. I could have made his combat even more ridiculous, but I actually wanted to spread the guy around a bit. Our party's ork is no joke-he's quite the badass, but he's more of a lighter-cybered gunslinger/Ruger/knifewielding Wild West type of guy with other skills in tracking and the like.

The ongoing joke with him is his roundhouse kick. Not quite in the cheese level of Chuck Norris jokes, but with his physical ability, Tae Kwan So and Savate training he's done some spectacular things with his leg, including enough damage in one blow to remove someone's head from their body.

It's funny when you mentioned the ''not obvious tank'', because the big, bald ork with the duster in our team usually registers as more of a threat right off than the tall elf with the fairly-long white hair, wire rimmed glasses, and the cigarette does. Until he decides to let loose the roundhouse. (Not that the ork isn't a threat, however. He can shoot a hole through your forehead.)

Ah, the good ole' ork cowboy archetype. Our version has a yamaha growler with the personality of a horse and gyro-stabilisation system as his personal ride to complete him, and Interest knowledge: Old wild west films 5

Out of interest, how many street sammies actually make use of the blood circuit control system? It seems to me to cost too much in terms of essence, , and availability compared to the bioware platelet factories.

Um...wow...cool idea!

I'm not sure but are there penalties for shooting at small targets (dwarves)? I can't see any in Arsenal or the BBB. Closest match is the 'Small Target' under Advanced combat rules in Arsenal but that doesn't really seem to fit the in line text....

On one hard, dwarves are penalised for not being able to wield reach 2 weapons easily, yet they don't get any perks such as penalties to hit. Harsh...very harsh..

- J.

Also, they only provide cover for the legs of the rest of the group