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eidolon
post Mar 28 2009, 05:17 PM
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Any time SR covers a place, people that actually live there come on and tell us how that would never happen / the place would never be that way / the interpretation is totally wrong / etc. In fact, usually several denizens come on to give us completely different sets of reasons that it's "wrong". It's par for the course.

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The Mack
post Mar 28 2009, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 29 2009, 01:45 AM) *
As a born New Yorker who still spends a great deal of time there and also as the person who wrote the Corporate Enclaves Manhattan blurb, I'm wondering which part doesn't jive well with you.



I think it's the (seemingly) widely embraced Orwellian aspect. I think I would have also preferred more Organized Crime as a major player.


I think it also has to do with something of a, trend, if one could call it that for NYC to get blown up, annihilated, infected with a plague, or reshaped/rebuilt in movies/media, games, fiction, etc. As such a prominent icon, it rarely survives in fiction to continue resembling the place that it actually is, as that just wouldn't have much impact.


Don't get the wrong idea either, it's a cool piece. I think I'd just enjoy it more if it were somewhere else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


QUOTE (eidolon)
Any time SR covers a place, people that actually live there come on and tell us how that would never happen / the place would never be that way / the interpretation is totally wrong / etc. In fact, usually several denizens come on to give us completely different sets of reasons that it's "wrong". It's par for the course.


People have opinions, can't be helped.
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Wesley Street
post Mar 28 2009, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (martindv @ Mar 28 2009, 12:05 PM) *
Yeah, because NAGNA flat-out said the Quake of '05 brought them down.

Seriously, it's amazing what you can find out about the game world and where it could have gone if you read that book.

It's inferred but not explicitly stated. And I never said that the Quake didn't knock them down; I said Fuchi razed the grounds and put up a new structure. The only skyscraper that didn't collapse was the Empire State Building. Though Rick Harris must have missed the memo because the WTC's standing right there in the background in a spot illustration on page 118.

The NY entry in NAGNA has consistency problems and I wouldn't hold it up as the best that Shadowrun 1st ed. had to offer.

QUOTE (the mack)
I think it also has to do with something of a, trend, if one could call it that for NYC to get blown up, annihilated, infected with a plague, or reshaped/rebuilt in movies/media, games, fiction, etc. As such a prominent icon, it rarely survives in fiction to continue resembling the place that it actually is, as that just wouldn't have much impact.


I don't disagree. The smackdown of New York is a sci-fi cliche used to sell movie tickets and airport thrillers but the writers have to use what was written into canon lest the players scream bloody murder. If NAGNA had never been written I would have loved to have seen a different approach taken as well.

QUOTE (the mack)
I think it's the (seemingly) widely embraced Orwellian aspect. I think I would have also preferred more Organized Crime as a major player.

Patience grasshopper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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Cardul
post Mar 29 2009, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (The Mack @ Mar 28 2009, 12:37 PM) *
I think it's the (seemingly) widely embraced Orwellian aspect. I think I would have also preferred more Organized Crime as a major player.


Um...you mean you guys do not have cameras at every major intersection and in Central Park anymore?(I remember reading about those being installed a couple years ago...)
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The Mack
post Mar 29 2009, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Mar 29 2009, 04:11 PM) *
Um...you mean you guys do not have cameras at every major intersection and in Central Park anymore?(I remember reading about those being installed a couple years ago...)


Central Park at night. Do a google search for it.
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Demonseed Elite
post Mar 29 2009, 12:58 PM
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Cardul, I think you're referring to the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative. It's live now, but the project is still limited to Lower Manhattan.

What is the point you are trying to make by saying "Central Park at night?" Crime in general is way down in New York City. It's not the dangerous city it was in the 80s. The violent crime rate has been on the decline for more than a decade and the murder rate is the lowest it has been since the early 60s. It's now one of the ten safest large cities in America. Now, whether it will stay that way with the economy going down the toilet is a good question, but it's unfair to say "Central Park at night" and try to characterize the city. Central Park at night is a hell of a lot safer now than it was a decade and a half ago.

Also, there's an issue of the book format. Catalyst decided to split the New York City e-books into multiple books, each one focusing on different aspects of New York City (at least, last I heard). So there are are aspects of NYC missing from the first e-book, such as the Organized Crime players, that I believe are intended to be covered in the future e-books.
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the_dunner
post Mar 29 2009, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 29 2009, 08:58 AM) *
Also, there's an issue of the book format. Catalyst decided to split the New York City e-books into multiple books, each one focusing on different aspects of New York City (at least, last I heard). So there are are aspects of NYC missing from the first e-book, such as the Organized Crime players, that I believe are intended to be covered in the future e-books.

That remains the tentative plan. The Organized Crime section is currently in early development. (We wanted to make certain that the tone was consistent with material that will be appearing in Vice.)
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The Mack
post Mar 29 2009, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 29 2009, 09:58 PM) *
Cardul, I think you're referring to the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative. It's live now, but the project is still limited to Lower Manhattan.

What is the point you are trying to make by saying "Central Park at night?" Crime in general is way down in New York City. It's not the dangerous city it was in the 80s. The violent crime rate has been on the decline for more than a decade and the murder rate is the lowest it has been since the early 60s. It's now one of the ten safest large cities in America. Now, whether it will stay that way with the economy going down the toilet is a good question, but it's unfair to say "Central Park at night" and try to characterize the city. Central Park at night is a hell of a lot safer now than it was a decade and a half ago.


It's just as unfair to point to security cameras in major public areas and liken it to an Orwellian state (Cardul's assertion).

I realize security cameras are a touchy subject, and also a slippery slope. I don't want to see the kind of draconian policing that goes on in Singapore (which felt pretty sterile as far as cities go when I was there), but at the same time - the world just isn't the place it used to be. I was always a bit saddened when I traveled through Asia and kids would tell me they were afraid to go to the US because of all the guns they assume people have. (Japanese people in particular seemed pretty convinced most Americans own guns.)

But that's getting off topic.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 29 2009, 09:58 PM) *
Also, there's an issue of the book format. Catalyst decided to split the New York City e-books into multiple books, each one focusing on different aspects of New York City (at least, last I heard). So there are are aspects of NYC missing from the first e-book, such as the Organized Crime players, that I believe are intended to be covered in the future e-books.


Well that sounds like something to look forward to.
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Wesley Street
post Mar 29 2009, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (The Mack @ Mar 29 2009, 11:54 AM) *
I don't want to see the kind of draconian policing that goes on in Singapore (which felt pretty sterile as far as cities go when I was there)


Ever read Gibson's "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" article for Wired? You might find it interesting reading if you haven't.
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Backgammon
post Mar 29 2009, 05:38 PM
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If the discussion is "New Yorkers would not accept the level of security Manhattan has now" - then that is one of the intentional ironies of Manhattan as written. After the Quake, New York was basically the same a Bug City era Chicago - Feral, violent, and plain horrible.

What happened in Manhattan post-Quake is basically a continuation of the debate over present-day security. Yes security is obstrusive and infringes on your rights, but is that worst than getting killed on your way to pick up milk? I'm not saying yes or no either way, but in Shadowrun, the decision was safety over freedom. And yes, this is in New York, with the New Yorker attitude and all.

That's the point of distopic cyberpunk. If we'd made New York as the straight path logical equivalent of today's New York - hell, if Shadowrun as a whole had followed that logic - we'd have a shitty game.
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Nath
post Mar 29 2009, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (martindv @ Mar 28 2009, 07:05 PM) *
Yeah, because NAGNA flat-out said the Quake of '05 brought them down.

Actually, NAGNA only said the Fuchi towers were built upon WTC ruins. At the time, the obvious conclusion reading it was that the earthquake of 2005 turned them into ruins, but this wasn't stated.
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Snow_Fox
post Mar 30 2009, 03:20 AM
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QUOTE (The Mack @ Mar 28 2009, 07:31 AM) *
Hey it's just my opinion as a New Yorker, and although there's never been anything like the Awakening - you'd be surprised at the kind of calamity that culture can survive through.

I agree, I was born and raised there and although I now live near Philly, I still consider myself a New Yorker. The Big Apple is one of the few places that would probably not even do a double take at the awakening. seriously, you see some of the street meat around the village? orks, trolls? who'd notice?

As for the towers. yeah the WTC in the official timeline was toppled by the quake. The Fuchi Towers were built on the site with the understanding they would get control of the area in return for stepping in and rebuilding in the rubble.

We've NEVER played NYC with the orwellenan security. it just wouldn't work. We kept it much as it is now- evolving vibrant, glossy corp sky rakers only a few miles form some of the worst barrens in the continent. Everything from mega stores to neighborhood stores to street corner bodegas. and we put Magical Child back where it belonged.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 30 2009, 05:10 AM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 29 2009, 05:54 PM) *
Ever read Gibson's "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" article for Wired? You might find it interesting reading if you haven't.

i really love how the guy writes. the comparisons are fast and loose.

and a islamic run border town is the down and dirty place where the young suits go to burn of hormones?

talk about real life cyberpunk...

i knew the place was a bit weird, but this is way past the deep end...
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dEdDaWg
post Mar 30 2009, 05:26 AM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 30 2009, 12:54 AM) *
Ever read Gibson's "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" article for Wired? You might find it interesting reading if you haven't.


I live in Singapore... All I can say is, "If you don't get caught, you can get away with it..."
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hobgoblin
post Mar 30 2009, 05:34 AM
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and if you do, nice knowing ya?
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dEdDaWg
post Mar 30 2009, 07:24 AM
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The death penalty is usually only reserved for murders, drug-related offenses and firearms related offenses. So simply, don't kill, do drugs or carry a gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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ravensmuse
post Mar 30 2009, 11:09 AM
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I'll hopefully be picking up the Manhattan e-book soon.

But I just can't help but add in: Yankees suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Cardul
post Mar 30 2009, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Mar 29 2009, 10:20 PM) *
We've NEVER played NYC with the orwellenan security. it just wouldn't work. We kept it much as it is now- evolving vibrant, glossy corp sky rakers only a few miles form some of the worst barrens in the continent. Everything from mega stores to neighborhood stores to street corner bodegas. and we put Magical Child back where it belonged.



Actually, reading it, and how they described the security, it really does sound plausible. I mean, does not NYC have various permits you need for a lot of things now? Also, it is not really talking about NYC, it is Manhattan, which, from everything I have read, has always been as Draconian as it can get. They also pretty much made it clear that alot of the security is more about keeping the SINless out, then really trying to insure loyalty to state....

I also liked that the police are actually not going to be brutalizing citizens because of the 2072 equivalent of Youtube (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But, over all, it sounds like what we hear here in Flordia about NYC: Police watch your every move, you can be shot by them if they so much as think you might be dangerous, etc, etc.. How is it really that much different from now except the police have more tools for watching your every move?
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Demonseed Elite
post Mar 30 2009, 11:45 AM
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Also, Manhattan 2072's security network isn't all pervasive. There are places on the island where it is more strict or less strict, depending on who lives and works there.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 30 2009, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Mar 30 2009, 12:20 PM) *
But, over all, it sounds like what we hear here in Flordia about NYC: Police watch your every move, you can be shot by them if they so much as think you might be dangerous, etc, etc.

heh, your saying not all US cops are trigger happy assholes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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The Mack
post Mar 30 2009, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (Cardul @ Mar 30 2009, 08:20 PM) *
Also, it is not really talking about NYC, it is Manhattan, which, from everything I have read, has always been as Draconian as it can get.


Um...no.


QUOTE (Cardul @ Mar 30 2009, 08:20 PM) *
But, over all, it sounds like what we hear here in Flordia about NYC: Police watch your every move, you can be shot by them if they so much as think you might be dangerous, etc, etc.. How is it really that much different from now except the police have more tools for watching your every move?


Because what you've heard in Florida is nonsense.

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Backgammon
post Mar 30 2009, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Mar 29 2009, 11:20 PM) *
I agree, I was born and raised there and although I now live near Philly, I still consider myself a New Yorker. The Big Apple is one of the few places that would probably not even do a double take at the awakening. seriously, you see some of the street meat around the village? orks, trolls? who'd notice?

As for the towers. yeah the WTC in the official timeline was toppled by the quake. The Fuchi Towers were built on the site with the understanding they would get control of the area in return for stepping in and rebuilding in the rubble.

We've NEVER played NYC with the orwellenan security. it just wouldn't work. We kept it much as it is now- evolving vibrant, glossy corp sky rakers only a few miles form some of the worst barrens in the continent. Everything from mega stores to neighborhood stores to street corner bodegas. and we put Magical Child back where it belonged.


You should give the ebook a read Snow Fox. I had your criticism in mind when writing about the security. I think we had the discussion before though, when DE's blurb in Corp Enclaved introduced the wireless mesh security approach. In my opinion, that had resolved the issues the old checkpoint system had. If you still don't like it, that's your perogative, but the concern that the security would grind Manhattan to a halt was very much at the forefront of our thoughts. I feel that was addressed.
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post Mar 30 2009, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (the_dunner @ Mar 29 2009, 03:48 PM) *
That remains the tentative plan. The Organized Crime section is currently in early development. (We wanted to make certain that the tone was consistent with material that will be appearing in Vice.)

Interesting. Just please tell me you wont be using the novels for information or at least cutting out the truly awful parts - fanatical super elven physical adepts with special swors that work for the Yakuza as enforcers for example, although one of the Five Familes turning themselves into La Cosa Nostra Inc. corporation did amuse me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Daddy's Litt...
post Mar 30 2009, 07:18 PM
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The Floridian view of the NYPD is bent. They are very good and very professional but they are not big brother and they are not having wild shoot outs in midtown.

I agree with SF. Manhattan needs people coming in from Westchester, Long Island and New Jersey as well as the outer boroughs. Otherwise its population is not enough for the corp offices. Just the masses of people coming in by train makes it impossible to have airport style checks on passes for every person.

You can do it with the 4th Ed head tech. "Which person does not belong here?" but not with the earlier tech. Just look at the masses piling off a train in Grand Central or Penn station or any of the subway lines or the Ferry's. You just don't have enough police to do it quickly enough to avoid massive log jambs of people which mean that workers will be late getting to the office so delaying business. that is a bad thing.

We treated the permitts like a modern carry permit. If you do not have a pass for the city, it really is not an issue until you do something that will get the policeman's attnetion, So if you are not around or do not get seen when something goes down, they will not grab you. they are not going to hassle people sitting in a deli having lunch or even hanging out in a park. BUT if you annoy them "Hey I smell bacon!" it gives them a reason to add to your grief factor.

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Demonseed Elite
post Mar 30 2009, 07:48 PM
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Well yes, it made a lot less sense in the days before RFID tags and broadcasting PAN profiles.

It's also worth noting that in 2072, there's much more residential density on the island of Manhattan than there is today, thanks to the leveling of huge sections of old Manhattan (for instance Harlem) and the area being redeveloped into high-rise corporate enclaves. Which isn't to say that people coming to work from Westchester, New Jersey, Connecticut, Long Island, etc. is eliminated, but it's very likely less than today. Not to mention the whole telecommuting factor.
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