So watch'all think of the Manhattan ebook?

Can you post the link?

The Rotten Apple: Manhattan from DrivethruRPG.com

Did I miss something. There is a section on the Towers. Did 9/11 occur in the SR timeline?

I've not read it yet. It is nice to have detailed background for new places though. I can't find a review, however.

That neighborhood refers to a very different set of Towers. (Ones that formerly constituted Fuchi-Town.)

I've qued it into my wishlist and most likely will DL it after I-CON 28

Nope. That never occured although the Sears Tower came crashing down in Chicago.

As far as I know, the SR devs never said either way whether 9/11 occurred in the SR world. It's just that the Quake four years later was much more devastating to the city as a whole and kinda overshadowed 9/11's effect.

I like this product a lot. Manhattan has been heretofore neglected in SR - the last we heard about it was a small section in SoNA, I think. It's high time this major North American city got a thorough treatment. The ebook format makes it easy to buy, or to forego, as you might wish.

Citywide catastrophes are overused, though. Seems like no North American city in SR is complete without an earthquake, tsunami, bug spirit infestation, atomic detonation, or some combination.

It was a secondary setting entry in Corporate Enclaves, still a small write-up there though.



I agree, though the 2005 NYC Quake has been written into SR backstory since NAGNA, at least (and I think it may even be farther back), so it kinda had to be included.

I just tossed it but I'm pretty sure it was in the history section of the 1st edition of the Big Blue Book as well. Not including the Quake was not an option. But to be fair every location in the Sixth World has been hit by some sort of disaster since 1999.

As far as I understand it, 9/11 did not occur in the Shadowrun time line. The World Trade Center grounds were purchased by Fuchi at some point, razed, and replaced with Fuchi Town which consisted of three towers. Those towers are now headquarters for the dirt-side Corporate Court.

Yeah, it is.
BTW, why throw away the 1st ed. book? Ratty copy?

Actually, tossed it to a friend. I cut all the pictures and maps I needed out of it.

Well North American has been through a lot as of 2070. See several of my posts arguing that the nation state and possibly civilization as we know it has fallen as of the Shadowrun timeline. What we're seeing in the game is basically "the day after the fall or Rome". It takes about a hundred years for people to realized that they're living in the new Dark Age.

While I agree large catastrophes are very common in SR - Chicago coming to mind, New York is a little different in that the current emphasis has nothing to do with the Quake. The Quake, as with other large disasters in SR's past, is a very handy "reset" button that gives the world plausible deniability. It allows very easily to take anywhere and do what you want with it without anyone being able to say "it wouldn't be like that" - because after a large disaster, who knows what it'd be like.

But for Manhattan, the Quake could actually not have happenned and the city would pretty much still be like it is written up to be now. Would it be entirely extra territorial? Probably not, but it would have ended up just the same as Hong Kong. Technically part of a country, but really, the corps call the shots. The Orwellian security could still be in place - with state sanction rather than MDC sanction. Manhattan would have ended up just about the same one way or another.

I haven't read the new ebook (I have corporate Enclaves), but honestly as someone from New York it's a pretty hard line to swallow.

New Yorkers are one of the more eclectic, varied (ideologically as well as ethnically) and individualistic groups of people on the planet. Often cynical, sarcastic and outspoken I have an extremely hard time biting the direction the SR 'universe' as it were took NYC.

9/11 didn't put a dent in New Yorkers being New Yorkers, I don't see an earthquake doing that either.

a earthquake, two net crashes, one magical awakening (with follow up add-on), and a large rewrite of the world map, all that within the average lifespan of a human...

Hey it's just my opinion as a New Yorker, and although there's never been anything like the Awakening - you'd be surprised at the kind of calamity that culture can survive through.

it can also change over time, in such a way that if one was away one may notice, but if one was present one will not...

Nobody said anything about the New Yorker spirit changing (though to be fair, I don't think it's been explicitly said it hasn't changed either). Quite to the contrary, it's been amplified - and polarised.

Firstly, let me remind you New-York, and Manhattan specifically, was largely de-populated after the Quake. Shitloads of people simply died, while a massive chunk then left. It was repopulated, but that will certainly have an impact on local culture, diluting it. New York was repopulated with non-New Yorkers, who simply don't see things the same way.

However, that being said, although diluted, the foundation would still be there. However, you then had a segregation of the population. Manhattan, the corporate enclave, got filled up with corporate types. Imagine Manhattan full of Wall Street types. Young, energetic, ambitious, confident, go-getters. All of the more "common" guys, the Joe and Jane average New Yorker, baseball watching, "hey, I'm walkin here" yelling New Yorkers ended up in the Buroughs. And as the situation in the Buroughs deteriorated, that tough New Yorker attitude, that resilience, would only have been amplified - by necessity.

I assure you, this was a VERY central concern in developing the ebook. I can't promise you that the issue was addressed perfectly, as there is obviously is Shadowrun history there prior to this one. However, the New York attitude was at the forefront of my mind.

New York is constantly being populated by non-New Yorkers, it's still a bastion of immigrant groups from around the world. And yet, and it's still very decidedly New York City.

The neighborhood where my father grew up used to be almost nearly Italian. Now? Half is Chinese and the other is Russian. And when I say Chinese and Russian, I mean you won't find any stores selling wares in English. All the signs are in the native tongue of the people's there.

And those diverse peoples add and enhance what NYC is, and in turn become New Yorkers themselves. It's very hard to explain, if you ever have a year free - I suggest living there to see for yourself.




I'll still check out the ebook, I'm too much of an SR fan not too. And I didn't expect much to change from Corporate Enclaves anyway.

Regardless, I'll give it a read with an open mind once I get it.

As a born New Yorker who still spends a great deal of time there and also as the person who wrote the Corporate Enclaves Manhattan blurb, I'm wondering which part doesn't jive well with you.

Yeah, because NAGNA flat-out said the Quake of '05 brought them down.

Seriously, it's amazing what you can find out about the game world and where it could have gone if you read that book.

As for retconning 9/11 into Shadowrun. Well... That is the most goddamn ridiculous and flat-out fucking retarded idea ever in RPGs. FATAL is a million times more brilliant an idea. And that doesn't even go into into disrespect and how much it makes me want to punch someone in the face for suggesting it.

Any time SR covers a place, people that actually live there come on and tell us how that would never happen / the place would never be that way / the interpretation is totally wrong / etc. In fact, usually several denizens come on to give us completely different sets of reasons that it's "wrong". It's par for the course.

I think it's the (seemingly) widely embraced Orwellian aspect. I think I would have also preferred more Organized Crime as a major player.


I think it also has to do with something of a, trend, if one could call it that for NYC to get blown up, annihilated, infected with a plague, or reshaped/rebuilt in movies/media, games, fiction, etc. As such a prominent icon, it rarely survives in fiction to continue resembling the place that it actually is, as that just wouldn't have much impact.


Don't get the wrong idea either, it's a cool piece. I think I'd just enjoy it more if it were somewhere else.




People have opinions, can't be helped.

It's inferred but not explicitly stated. And I never said that the Quake didn't knock them down; I said Fuchi razed the grounds and put up a new structure. The only skyscraper that didn't collapse was the Empire State Building. Though Rick Harris must have missed the memo because the WTC's standing right there in the background in a spot illustration on page 118.

The NY entry in NAGNA has consistency problems and I wouldn't hold it up as the best that Shadowrun 1st ed. had to offer.



I don't disagree. The smackdown of New York is a sci-fi cliche used to sell movie tickets and airport thrillers but the writers have to use what was written into canon lest the players scream bloody murder. If NAGNA had never been written I would have loved to have seen a different approach taken as well.


Patience grasshopper.

EDIT

Um...you mean you guys do not have cameras at every major intersection and in Central Park anymore?(I remember reading about those being installed a couple years ago...)

Central Park at night. Do a google search for it.

Cardul, I think you're referring to the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative. It's live now, but the project is still limited to Lower Manhattan.

What is the point you are trying to make by saying "Central Park at night?" Crime in general is way down in New York City. It's not the dangerous city it was in the 80s. The violent crime rate has been on the decline for more than a decade and the murder rate is the lowest it has been since the early 60s. It's now one of the ten safest large cities in America. Now, whether it will stay that way with the economy going down the toilet is a good question, but it's unfair to say "Central Park at night" and try to characterize the city. Central Park at night is a hell of a lot safer now than it was a decade and a half ago.

Also, there's an issue of the book format. Catalyst decided to split the New York City e-books into multiple books, each one focusing on different aspects of New York City (at least, last I heard). So there are are aspects of NYC missing from the first e-book, such as the Organized Crime players, that I believe are intended to be covered in the future e-books.

That remains the tentative plan. The Organized Crime section is currently in early development. (We wanted to make certain that the tone was consistent with material that will be appearing in Vice.)

It's just as unfair to point to security cameras in major public areas and liken it to an Orwellian state (Cardul's assertion).

I realize security cameras are a touchy subject, and also a slippery slope. I don't want to see the kind of draconian policing that goes on in Singapore (which felt pretty sterile as far as cities go when I was there), but at the same time - the world just isn't the place it used to be. I was always a bit saddened when I traveled through Asia and kids would tell me they were afraid to go to the US because of all the guns they assume people have. (Japanese people in particular seemed pretty convinced most Americans own guns.)

But that's getting off topic.



Well that sounds like something to look forward to.

Ever read Gibson's "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" article for Wired? You might find it interesting reading if you haven't.

If the discussion is "New Yorkers would not accept the level of security Manhattan has now" - then that is one of the intentional ironies of Manhattan as written. After the Quake, New York was basically the same a Bug City era Chicago - Feral, violent, and plain horrible.

What happened in Manhattan post-Quake is basically a continuation of the debate over present-day security. Yes security is obstrusive and infringes on your rights, but is that worst than getting killed on your way to pick up milk? I'm not saying yes or no either way, but in Shadowrun, the decision was safety over freedom. And yes, this is in New York, with the New Yorker attitude and all.

That's the point of distopic cyberpunk. If we'd made New York as the straight path logical equivalent of today's New York - hell, if Shadowrun as a whole had followed that logic - we'd have a shitty game.

Actually, NAGNA only said the Fuchi towers were built upon WTC ruins. At the time, the obvious conclusion reading it was that the earthquake of 2005 turned them into ruins, but this wasn't stated.

I agree, I was born and raised there and although I now live near Philly, I still consider myself a New Yorker. The Big Apple is one of the few places that would probably not even do a double take at the awakening. seriously, you see some of the street meat around the village? orks, trolls? who'd notice?

As for the towers. yeah the WTC in the official timeline was toppled by the quake. The Fuchi Towers were built on the site with the understanding they would get control of the area in return for stepping in and rebuilding in the rubble.

We've NEVER played NYC with the orwellenan security. it just wouldn't work. We kept it much as it is now- evolving vibrant, glossy corp sky rakers only a few miles form some of the worst barrens in the continent. Everything from mega stores to neighborhood stores to street corner bodegas. and we put Magical Child back where it belonged.

i really love how the guy writes. the comparisons are fast and loose.

and a islamic run border town is the down and dirty place where the young suits go to burn of hormones?

talk about real life cyberpunk...

i knew the place was a bit weird, but this is way past the deep end...

I live in Singapore... All I can say is, "If you don't get caught, you can get away with it..."

and if you do, nice knowing ya?

The death penalty is usually only reserved for murders, drug-related offenses and firearms related offenses. So simply, don't kill, do drugs or carry a gun.

I'll hopefully be picking up the Manhattan e-book soon.

But I just can't help but add in: Yankees suck

Actually, reading it, and how they described the security, it really does sound plausible. I mean, does not NYC have various permits you need for a lot of things now? Also, it is not really talking about NYC, it is Manhattan, which, from everything I have read, has always been as Draconian as it can get. They also pretty much made it clear that alot of the security is more about keeping the SINless out, then really trying to insure loyalty to state....

I also liked that the police are actually not going to be brutalizing citizens because of the 2072 equivalent of Youtube
But, over all, it sounds like what we hear here in Flordia about NYC: Police watch your every move, you can be shot by them if they so much as think you might be dangerous, etc, etc.. How is it really that much different from now except the police have more tools for watching your every move?

Also, Manhattan 2072's security network isn't all pervasive. There are places on the island where it is more strict or less strict, depending on who lives and works there.

heh, your saying not all US cops are trigger happy assholes?

Um...no.




Because what you've heard in Florida is nonsense.

You should give the ebook a read Snow Fox. I had your criticism in mind when writing about the security. I think we had the discussion before though, when DE's blurb in Corp Enclaved introduced the wireless mesh security approach. In my opinion, that had resolved the issues the old checkpoint system had. If you still don't like it, that's your perogative, but the concern that the security would grind Manhattan to a halt was very much at the forefront of our thoughts. I feel that was addressed.

Interesting. Just please tell me you wont be using the novels for information or at least cutting out the truly awful parts - fanatical super elven physical adepts with special swors that work for the Yakuza as enforcers for example, although one of the Five Familes turning themselves into La Cosa Nostra Inc. corporation did amuse me.

The Floridian view of the NYPD is bent. They are very good and very professional but they are not big brother and they are not having wild shoot outs in midtown.

I agree with SF. Manhattan needs people coming in from Westchester, Long Island and New Jersey as well as the outer boroughs. Otherwise its population is not enough for the corp offices. Just the masses of people coming in by train makes it impossible to have airport style checks on passes for every person.

You can do it with the 4th Ed head tech. "Which person does not belong here?" but not with the earlier tech. Just look at the masses piling off a train in Grand Central or Penn station or any of the subway lines or the Ferry's. You just don't have enough police to do it quickly enough to avoid massive log jambs of people which mean that workers will be late getting to the office so delaying business. that is a bad thing.

We treated the permitts like a modern carry permit. If you do not have a pass for the city, it really is not an issue until you do something that will get the policeman's attnetion, So if you are not around or do not get seen when something goes down, they will not grab you. they are not going to hassle people sitting in a deli having lunch or even hanging out in a park. BUT if you annoy them "Hey I smell bacon!" it gives them a reason to add to your grief factor.

Well yes, it made a lot less sense in the days before RFID tags and broadcasting PAN profiles.

It's also worth noting that in 2072, there's much more residential density on the island of Manhattan than there is today, thanks to the leveling of huge sections of old Manhattan (for instance Harlem) and the area being redeveloped into high-rise corporate enclaves. Which isn't to say that people coming to work from Westchester, New Jersey, Connecticut, Long Island, etc. is eliminated, but it's very likely less than today. Not to mention the whole telecommuting factor.