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Veggiesama
post Apr 15 2009, 08:30 PM
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Here's a proposed house rule / clarification in the form of a new Sprite power:

Machine Gnome: Machine sprites may substitute Diagnostics for this power. While inside a vehicle or drone's node, the sprite may override the vehicle or drone's Pilot and autosofts with the its own Rating and optional complex forms. The sprite controls the actions of the drone or vehicle, as if the sprite was rigging it. As long as the sprite possesses the complex form for an autosoft, like Maneuvering, most rolls are equal to its Rating x 2. If not, the sprite can access and employ the autosofts of the vehicle or drone's programming.

CODE
SPRITE-CONTROLLED DRONE DICE POOL
Autosofts:      best autosoft rating available, either loaded into the drone or known by the sprite
Rating:         sprite's Rating, which is the same as the sprite's Pilot and Command programs

Initiative:     as sprite
Attack:         Rating + Targeting (autosoft)
Melee Def:      Rating + Defense (autosoft)
Ranged Def:     Rating
Full Defense:   as above + Defense (autosoft)
Damage Resist:  Body + Armor
Infiltration:   Rating + Covert Ops (autosoft)
Maneuvering:    Rating + Maneuver (autosoft)
Perception:     Sensor + Clearsight (autosoft)
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Veggiesama
post Apr 15 2009, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (tricwebs @ Apr 15 2009, 02:21 PM) *
A quick question about Echoes and The Living Persona.
The living persona is limited by the Resonance rating of the technomancer. So, if a technomancer has a Resonance of 5 and an Intuition of 5, is his Response limited to 5 in VR, in effect losing the +1 bonus for VR? Along the same line, would taking the Overclocking echo (+1 to Response) be pointless until the technomancer raises his Resonance?


You know, I was going to say no, but I think this is true. Hackers get a +1 bonus to VR iniatitive, but Technos actually get a straight-up +1 Response (not just to Initiative): "When technomancers immerse themselves in full VR, they are always considered to be running with hot sim (p. 226); the speed bonus for hot sim is already calculated into their Response and Initiative."

The words "the speed bonus for hot sim is already calculated" are poorly chosen, because it implies that Technos work the same as Hackers, when in fact they don't. Technomancers get a +1 bonus to Initiative, two extra initiative passes, and a +2 to all Matrix actions (all the stuff that hot sims do), but they ALSO get +1 Response in VR on top of that.

I guess it could also be argued that they get a +1 bonus to Response tests, and not +1 Response, which means Resonance wouldn't limit it.

Hmmm... I think I just freed up 10 BP for my technomancer. =)
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Jaid
post Apr 15 2009, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 14 2009, 11:31 PM) *
I don't think Threading is a valid specialisation for Software, because a hacker can't also take "programs" as spec for software and more important, a technomancer can only thread with software so it is a specialisation for 100% of the skills tests which is explicit forbidden by the game rules.

I would not allow Threading as specailisation, instead you have to specialize on a subset like "security CFs" just like a hacker.

cya
Tycho

i hear this a lot, but haven't yet seen anyone provide solid support for this.

the TM version of a skill accomplishes the same thing as the normal skill, but in a different way. technomancers can program software. many of them won't care to, many of them won't have time to, but they can. they can code perfectly normal software using their technomancer skill, and that software will run just fine on a normal node, but not on a resonance entity. if you were to watch a technomancer coding software, you'd probably be thinking "wth is this guy doing?" but it would still result in a perfectly ordinary program at the end of it all.

now i can still see how you might feel threading is not a legitimate specialisation. it's really quite up in the air... it isn't an official one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an allowed one.
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Tiger Eyes
post Apr 15 2009, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2009, 05:31 PM) *
now i can still see how you might feel threading is not a legitimate specialisation. it's really quite up in the air... it isn't an official one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an allowed one.


As officially as I can, I will say this is an allowed specialization. Don't be surprised to see it on NPCs in upcoming products. A GM can choose not to let a PC take Threading as a specialization of Software (GMs always have discretion to do what they want at their own table), but there will be NPCs in SR products that have it.
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Tycho
post Apr 15 2009, 11:33 PM
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The thing is, why should a technomancer write a normal program he could not even use himself. A Technomancer will use software foremost and in the most cases only to thread CFs, so this specialization is in my opinion far too powerful, because it generates 2 bonus dice on every relevant test. The official specializations are quite good anyway.

Moreover in official products only the legal specializations, which are listed by the skills, should be used, because anything else would be a houserule and these should not be part of any official products, even if the developers use them at home.

cya
Tycho
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BlueMax
post Apr 15 2009, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 15 2009, 03:33 PM) *
The thing is, why should a technomancer write a normal program he could not even use himself. A Technomancer will use software foremost and in the most cases only to thread CFs, so this specialization is in my opinion fare to powerful, because it generates 2 bonus dice on every relevant test. The official specializations are quite good anyway.

Moreover in official products only the legal specializations, which are listed by the skills, should be used, because anything else would be a houserule and these should not be part of any official products, even if the developers use them at home.

cya
Tycho


Why cant a TM enter his commlink and attack from his commlink using regular programs? Your first sentence has me missing something.

I know the color says its "auld schule" but its a great way to look just like a normal hacker.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 15 2009, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2009, 03:31 PM) *
i hear this a lot, but haven't yet seen anyone provide solid support for this.

the TM version of a skill accomplishes the same thing as the normal skill, but in a different way. technomancers can program software. many of them won't care to, many of them won't have time to, but they can. they can code perfectly normal software using their technomancer skill, and that software will run just fine on a normal node, but not on a resonance entity. if you were to watch a technomancer coding software, you'd probably be thinking "wth is this guy doing?" but it would still result in a perfectly ordinary program at the end of it all.

now i can still see how you might feel threading is not a legitimate specialisation. it's really quite up in the air... it isn't an official one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an allowed one.



Actually, You should probably read Page 233 of the SR4 BBB (not sure the page in SR4A), Titled Technomancer Skills... They are most definitely NOT the same skills, and they cannot use their technomancer skills to code normal software, or operate normal (read Technological) applications of Hardware, Electronic Warefare, Cyber Combat, Data Search, Computer OR Hacking...

It is spelled out in detail... If technomancers want to be able to mimic the Old-Fashioned (to them anyway) methods of the classic Hacker, then they MUST TAKE THESE SKILLS AGAIN FOR MUNDANE USE (or use Activesofts)...

Also... I would definitely allow a Threading Specialization...

My Two Cents
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 15 2009, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 15 2009, 05:33 PM) *
The thing is, why should a technomancer write a normal program he could not even use himself. A Technomancer will use software foremost and in the most cases only to thread CFs, so this specialization is in my opinion fare to powerful, because it generates 2 bonus dice on every relevant test. The official specializations are quite good anyway.

Moreover in official products only the legal specializations, which are listed by the skills, should be used, because anything else would be a houserule and these should not be part of any official products, even if the developers use them at home.

cya
Tycho



How can it be a houserule, if it is included in oficial product, that makes absolutely no sense...
The list of specializations given for the skills are EXAMPLES, and are not exausstive in any way, shape, or form...

Again, My Two Cents...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 15 2009, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 15 2009, 05:36 PM) *
Why cant a TM enter his commlink and attack from his commlink using regular programs? Your first sentence has me missing something.

I know the color says its "auld schule" but its a great way to look just like a normal hacker.



He could appear to be using a comlink, but why should he limit his true capabilities through tech that is an outmoded thing for him?

Again, Technomancers CANNOT use standard programs without the use of the Mundane Hacking/Electronic skills to go along with them (See Page 233, SR4 BBB, Technomancer Skills)... why should he pay twice (Once for the CF and once for the Program) for things that he can just conjur in his mind (thread)? You are apparently choosing to ignore the differences that make Technomancers what they are...
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Tycho
post Apr 15 2009, 11:57 PM
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I looked in the book and could not find any text, that stated you can make up specializations as you wish, nor that the given specializations are only examples.

In my opinion its ok to make new specializations in your group, but official products should stick to the official rules, in which "threading" is not a specialization for Software.

cya
Tycho
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BlueMax
post Apr 16 2009, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2009, 04:44 PM) *
He could appear to be using a comlink, but why should he limit his true capabilities through tech that is an outmoded thing for him?

Again, Technomancers CANNOT use standard programs without the use of the Mundane Hacking/Electronic skills to go along with them (See Page 233, SR4 BBB, Technomancer Skills)... why should he pay twice (Once for the CF and once for the Program) for things that he can just conjur in his mind (thread)? You are apparently choosing to ignore the differences that make Technomancers what they are...


I won't answer the first section, as I would not want to limit anyone and disagree with the the tone.

The second section is correct and I would like to thank you for pointing out the section, page and name. Tiger Eyes, I just checked with my buddy who has SR4A and its on page 239 there. If the only purpose of TM Software is to thread, why should they specialize?

BlueMax
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Bobfly
post Apr 16 2009, 12:20 AM
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Lookit all dat TM discussion.

I have a few questions myself! This seems like an appropriate place to ask them.

- Can you seriously thread skillsoft CFs, that seems crazy. I suppose if you had a tutor sprite buddy with the CF then you could emulate his.

- If my dude takes the Macro echo, would you say he could do 2 extended actions at the same time at the -2 penalty?

- Since TMs use the software skill differently than hackers, would you all say they get the benefit from programming suites and environments like hackers do if they decide to code programs? Why would they want to you ask? Well, why not? (Okay, autosofts are pretty good candidates)

- What makes code sprites so awesome? They seem pretty limited to me. Sure, probability distribution is a fantastic ability, but the sprite has no stealth CF. If you run into IC, having that sprite along with you is going to set off alarms like WHOA. Or can they use it in nodes they aren't in? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

- Similarly, paladin sprites. Castling is cool, but then they'll be using all their actions taking your damage and not hitting anything back. And they can't use hardening along with it, can they?

- If I thread a complex form that creates a lasting effect (Encrypt, Data Bomb, etc.), do I have to keep sustaining it to get the benefit of the improved rating? Or can I just plant it and be happy?

- This one is only halfway connected to TMs, but if you want to discourage someone from hacking into your drones, where do you put that nasty, evil pavlov-databomb? In your commlink (brain (welp))? In the drone? oh god i am not good with fictional electronic warfare

(Oh, and Tycho, please please stop signing your posts. Your name is RIGHT THERE on the left. Pet peeve.)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 16 2009, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 15 2009, 05:57 PM) *
I looked in the book and could not find any text, that stated you can make up specializations as you wish, nor that the given specializations are only examples.

In my opinion its ok to make new specializations in your group, but official products should stick to the official rules, in which "threading" is not a specialization for Software.

cya
Tycho


Again... If it is included in official product, the intent is pretty clear... the examples of specializations are just that examples... obviously, the writers/devs think that they are examples, as specializations not listed are obviously going to be in published books...

Are you going to tell me that because a skill is not listed, that I cannot take it? See page 127 of the BBB for clarification (Special Active Skills)...

Also, in the Choosing Knowledge Skills section (page 127), it is explicitly stated that specializations should be a more focused sub-category of the broad skill... now, it does not explicitly state that this should apply to the active skills, but it is implied, so much so that developers and writers will be using specialties that are not explicitly listed under the skills in the book...

Ergo... the implication is that you can create sub-categories of specialization that are not listed for skillsthat you possess (and is obviously not a house-rule)...


Of course, you may not interpret it that way... but when the company that produces the product does, well, so will I...

My 1/2 Cent
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Tiger Eyes
post Apr 16 2009, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE (Bobfly @ Apr 15 2009, 08:20 PM) *
Lookit all dat TM discussion.

I have a few questions myself! This seems like an appropriate place to ask them.

- Can you seriously thread skillsoft CFs, that seems crazy. I suppose if you had a tutor sprite buddy with the CF then you could emulate his.


You can emulate a skillsoft if you take the biowire echo. You must have the skillsoft. It would be up to your GM if she'd allow you to emulate a Tutor sprite's skillsoft (but hey, cool loophole if your GM lets you!). The rules don't disallow it (that I see), but my common sense says no. Well, maybe with a resonance bond with the sprite....

QUOTE
- If my dude takes the Macro echo, would you say he could do 2 extended actions at the same time at the -2 penalty?


It specifically says 'with a single Complex Action'. Extended tests aren't normally one complex action... I'd say no.

QUOTE
- Since TMs use the software skill differently than hackers, would you all say they get the benefit from programming suites and environments like hackers do if they decide to code programs? Why would they want to you ask? Well, why not? (Okay, autosofts are pretty good candidates)


I'd say sure, if your GM will allow it. I believe a TM can code a software program for use by another user with their Software skill (one reason Singularity is doing so well, in fact, since the Matrix corp is headed by a technomancer, and is known for producing very unusual code that defies other corps attempts to reverse-engineer or crack it...

QUOTE
- What makes code sprites so awesome? They seem pretty limited to me. Sure, probability distribution is a fantastic ability, but the sprite has no stealth CF. If you run into IC, having that sprite along with you is going to set off alarms like WHOA. Or can they use it in nodes they aren't in? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


One word: Info Sortilage.

QUOTE
- Similarly, paladin sprites. Castling is cool, but then they'll be using all their actions taking your damage and not hitting anything back. And they can't use hardening along with it, can they?


Yes, they can do both Castling and Hardening at the same time. A rating 7 Paladin sprite rolls 35 dice in full defense.

Response 9 + Firewall 9 + Shield 7 + Expert Defense 3 + Rating 7 = 35 dice.

And blackhammer/blackout have no effect on sprites. That means that you can walk into Matrix combat, do your thing, and completely ignore everyone attacking you. What else do you want them to do? If you want one to attack, have 2 Paladins...

QUOTE
- If I thread a complex form that creates a lasting effect (Encrypt, Data Bomb, etc.), do I have to keep sustaining it to get the benefit of the improved rating? Or can I just plant it and be happy?


Once you place a databomb, it does not need to be sustained. Ditto with Encryption.

QUOTE
- This one is only halfway connected to TMs, but if you want to discourage someone from hacking into your drones, where do you put that nasty, evil pavlov-databomb? In your commlink (brain (welp))? In the drone? oh god i am not good with fictional electronic warfare


In the drone. Only another TM can hack your bio-node, and do you really want a databomb in it?
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Caadium
post Apr 16 2009, 03:44 AM
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QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 15 2009, 08:04 PM) *
You can emulate a skillsoft if you take the biowire echo. You must have the skillsoft. It would be up to your GM if she'd allow you to emulate a Tutor sprite's skillsoft (but hey, cool loophole if your GM lets you!). The rules don't disallow it (that I see), but my common sense says no. Well, maybe with a resonance bond with the sprite....


I would say that if you had Biowires you could use the Proficiency ability of a tutor sprite to use it's skillsoft(s) at 1/2 sprite rating (as the sprite power details). Otherwise, I'd agree that you can't emulate the sprites version straight across. However, I'd be open to using a Tutor Sprite to teach you how to create/emulate a version of the program if you were taking the time to memorize it (along with the appropriate amount of course).


QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 15 2009, 08:04 PM) *
Yes, they can do both Castling and Hardening at the same time. A rating 7 Paladin sprite rolls 35 dice in full defense.

Response 9 + Firewall 9 + Shield 7 + Expert Defense 3 + Rating 7 = 35 dice.

And blackhammer/blackout have no effect on sprites. That means that you can walk into Matrix combat, do your thing, and completely ignore everyone attacking you. What else do you want them to do? If you want one to attack, have 2 Paladins...


I admit, this one confuses me. How can Paladin sprites both Castle and Harden at the same time? Both powers require a Complex action per their description. I could be reading it wrong, but the way I see it they are not sustained powers. At the very least, I'd say that is true of Hardening which specifically says:

QUOTE (Unwired, pg 156)
Using Hardening counts as a Complex Action, similar to going on Full Defense


That being said, I don't see how a Paladin sprite could go on Full Defense and Harden at the same time. They can simply choose to toughen up and ignore the wound instead of making an extra effort to get out of the way. At least thats how I read that. If I am wrong please correct me.
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Jaid
post Apr 16 2009, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2009, 07:38 PM) *
Actually, You should probably read Page 233 of the SR4 BBB (not sure the page in SR4A), Titled Technomancer Skills... They are most definitely NOT the same skills, and they cannot use their technomancer skills to code normal software, or operate normal (read Technological) applications of Hardware, Electronic Warefare, Cyber Combat, Data Search, Computer OR Hacking...

It is spelled out in detail... If technomancers want to be able to mimic the Old-Fashioned (to them anyway) methods of the classic Hacker, then they MUST TAKE THESE SKILLS AGAIN FOR MUNDANE USE (or use Activesofts)...

Also... I would definitely allow a Threading Specialization...

My Two Cents

once again, yes the skill is different.

but if a technomancer uses data search and looks up "aztechnology" he doesn't get information about planting roses in subarctic temperatures using only 3 pennies and a pack of gum, he gets information about aztechnology.

if he uses cybercombat to attack, it doesn't put him into a simsense recording of his early childhood, it introduces faults into his opponent's programs.

if he uses hardware to put together a matrix device to store his personal data, it doesn't come out as a steel lynx drone, it comes out as a bloody storage server.

and when he uses software to code a program, it comes out as a bloody program. not as a mangled-up mess of random numbers and letters. it may not follow standard coding conventions, it may not be pretty, it may not have any comments in it, and if you were to watch him put it together, it probably wouldn't make sense how he came up with the finished product. but it is still a bloody program. it runs on a commlink, just like a normal program would. because while the means to the end change, the end result is still the same when a technomancer uses their skills. the program is not the means, it is the end, therefore even though the technomancer might use nonstandard means to arrive at the same end as what a hacker might do, it *still* comes up with the same end.

as far as why it might be useful, well, first off it means they can crack programs. like agents. secondly, it means they can design programs they can't thread. like agents. or worms, or viruses, or other malware. thirdly, it means they can design/crack programs for any agents, worms, virus, etc that they might happen to have made.
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Bobfly
post Apr 16 2009, 10:35 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions, Tiger Eyes. There are a few things I HAVE TO COMMENT ON GRAAAH though.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
It specifically says 'with a single Complex Action'. Extended tests aren't normally one complex action... I'd say no.


That's not what I meant. I meant doing an extended action, and then doing another extended action alongside it. They would still both be extended actions (dur (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). The rationale here being that Macro essentially lets you take your initiative pass twice (okay, apart from that extra free action), so you do that every turn until the extended action(s) is/are completed. I can see how this could be unbalancing though, even bearing in mind that it only applies to matrix actions.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
One word: Info Sortilege.


Two words! :V
But yeah. Excellent point... Though the same problem is still somewhat present - what if the trail leads you/it into a secure node? Oh, and I'd still like to see how someone would put Probability Distribution to good use.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
Yes, they can do both Castling and Hardening at the same time. A rating 7 Paladin sprite rolls 35 dice in full defense.

Response 9 + Firewall 9 + Shield 7 + Expert Defense 3 + Rating 7 = 35 dice.

And blackhammer/blackout have no effect on sprites. That means that you can walk into Matrix combat, do your thing, and completely ignore everyone attacking you. What else do you want them to do? If you want one to attack, have 2 Paladins...


I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling you here. Like Caadium said, aren't Castling and Hardening both complex actions? Also, as far as I understand Castling, the sprite doesn't take your defence roll for you, it just takes the damage if you get hit (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Being wrong here would be pretty awesome).

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
In the drone. Only another TM can hack your bio-node, and do you really want a databomb in it?

-Guys, I put a bomb in my brain!
-You put a BOMB in your BRAIN!? Are you NUTS!?

Heh.

So, because I'm slow, can you put it somewhere so anyone who accesses the drone gets bombed? If so, is there any way for intruders to detect the bomb without setting it off? And if they do get bombed, do they still have access to the drone?

EDIT: Oh! Oh! I have another one! If I have a resonance of 6 and get some cyberware to reduce it to 5, do I pay 18 or 21 karma to raise it back up to 6? Meaning, is my resonance now 5, or is it still 6, but with only 5 of the points 'functioning'?
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Ryu
post Apr 16 2009, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (Bobfly @ Apr 16 2009, 12:35 PM) *
I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling you here. Like Caadium said, aren't Castling and Hardening both complex actions? Also, as far as I understand Castling, the sprite doesn't take your defence roll for you, it just takes the damage if you get hit (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Being wrong here would be pretty awesome).

Using a power on something is a complex action, sustaining that use isn´t. And there is no penalty for sustaining a power (but a limit to (res/mag) active powers).
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Ard3
post Apr 16 2009, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 16 2009, 02:44 AM) *
Again, Technomancers CANNOT use standard programs without the use of the Mundane Hacking/Electronic skills to go along with them (See Page 233, SR4 BBB, Technomancer Skills).


Just to make thing clear, in 1.8 errata, this was changed. Link
About middle of the document.

p. 233 Technomancer Skills
The first line should read:
Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers use
to handle sprites (see p. 119), technomancers use the same
skills common to hackers—Computer, Cybercombat, Data
Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking, Hardware, and Software.

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Tiger Eyes
post Apr 16 2009, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Bobfly @ Apr 16 2009, 06:35 AM) *
Thanks for answering my questions, Tiger Eyes. There are a few things I HAVE TO COMMENT ON GRAAAH though.

But yeah. Excellent point... Though the same problem is still somewhat present - what if the trail leads you/it into a secure node? Oh, and I'd still like to see how someone would put Probability Distribution to good use.

If the trail leads it to a secure node, it comes back to you and says, "I dunno what's in there, but I'm pretty sure it's relevant. Have fun storming the castle."

QUOTE
I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling you here. Like Caadium said, aren't Castling and Hardening both complex actions? Also, as far as I understand Castling, the sprite doesn't take your defence roll for you, it just takes the damage if you get hit (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Being wrong here would be pretty awesome).


No, the sprite redirects the attack. As for the rest, I agree with Jaid.

QUOTE
So, because I'm slow, can you put it somewhere so anyone who accesses the drone gets bombed? If so, is there any way for intruders to detect the bomb without setting it off? And if they do get bombed, do they still have access to the drone?

EDIT: Oh! Oh! I have another one! If I have a resonance of 6 and get some cyberware to reduce it to 5, do I pay 18 or 21 karma to raise it back up to 6? Meaning, is my resonance now 5, or is it still 6, but with only 5 of the points 'functioning'?


A Matrix Perception test can provide the info that there is a Data Bomb (p. 228, SR4A). You can set a databomb to trigger when someone logs into a node without the correct passcode. Read the Set Data Bomb action, p. 231, SR4A. Yes, they are nasty now. Aaron made them the bane of my TM's life (literally).

As for the resonance: if you start out with Resonance 6, and drop it to 5 because of 'ware, your maximum (until submersion) is 5. I believe you'd pay 6*5 = 30 karma to raise it back to 6 (I could be wrong. Maybe you'd have to pay 7*5=35? Anyone else find that in the book?). Mind, while it is 5, that limits all your CF, your compiling, fading damage from compiling & threading (will be Physical damage if you thread a CF over 5, ditto for sprites), your Living Persona... TMs get really screwed losing that point of resonance (more so than mages/adepts; TMs have more things that rely or link to Resonance).

Instead of paying that 30 karma to raise it back to 6, why not submerge twice, and get biowires & a level of acceleration. You'll be suddenly much improved in combat, and you won't have to suffer thru the dings from having a lower resonance.
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Biokinetica
post Apr 16 2009, 03:18 PM
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Do you roll your active skill plus resonance and complex form, or just resonance (ordered by SR4, then SR4A)? Ex: Res + Software + Edit vs. Res + edit.
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BlueMax
post Apr 16 2009, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (Ard3 @ Apr 16 2009, 06:52 AM) *
Just to make thing clear, in 1.8 errata, this was changed. Link
About middle of the document.

p. 233 Technomancer Skills
The first line should read:
Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers use
to handle sprites (see p. 119), technomancers use the same
skills common to hackers—Computer, Cybercombat, Data
Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking, Hardware, and Software.



This may sound like a coincidence but I was up all night programming. Since I am going in late, I've had our guy with SR4A complete your quote from SR4A page 239.
QUOTE
Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers use to handle sprites (p. 240), technomancers use the same skills common to hackers:
Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking,Hardware, and Software. The way technomancers use these skills, however,
is vastly different from the way non-technomancers use them. Technomancers exercise these skills through mental gymnastics and
an intuitive feel for the functioning of the machine world; they do not learn to use electronics so much as they learn to make devices and
software do what they want.
As a result, the technomancer versions of these skills are fundamentally different from the standard versions. In game terms, technomancers
may never teach these skills to non-technomancers, nor are the technomancer skill versions available as skillsofts. Technomancers
may learn the “normal� versions of these skills separately (or use normal skillsofts), but they often find the normal way of doing things
to be hopelessly clumsy and backward.


So if what I was sent is correct, the skills are "fundamentally different". My question
"What would a TM do with TM Software besides threading?"
Can regular Hackers take Specialization (Non-Threading)?

Apologies if this misses the point, I am suffering some nasty fading.
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 16 2009, 03:40 PM
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Tiger Eyes,

RAW for raising attributes is still just based off New Rating. Even for Magic/Resonance/Edge. It would just be 30 karma, or 4 sessions at the new stated expection for karma/session.

BlueMax,

The skills function for all the same uses as for mundanes. You can use Technomancer Software to write a program. Whilst most Technomancers are of the "screw the world, I have my specialness" personality some will use Software to do things other than thread. Since Unwired also the need to acquire patches for programs that you want to use whilst 'running, and the Matrix Specialist of a long term team will be expected to fulfil this role, the Techno may be forced to use Software for purposes other than Threading.

Plus, it's not like it's the only specialisation that is rather inclusive in the expected use envelope. Consider Pistols (Semi-Automatics), Automatics (Submachine Guns) or Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled).
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Malachi
post Apr 16 2009, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 16 2009, 09:40 AM) *
Plus, it's not like it's the only specialisation that is rather inclusive in the expected use envelope. Consider Pistols (Semi-Automatics), Automatics (Submachine Guns) or Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled).

Exactly, or Dodge (Ranged), or Perception (Visual). There are lots of places where you can specialize in the "most common use" of a skill. If you can spend the BP to do it, why not?
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BlueMax
post Apr 16 2009, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 16 2009, 08:40 AM) *
BlueMax,

The skills function for all the same uses as for mundanes. You can use Technomancer Software to write a program. Whilst most Technomancers are of the "screw the world, I have my specialness" personality some will use Software to do things other than thread. Since Unwired also the need to acquire patches for programs that you want to use whilst 'running, and the Matrix Specialist of a long term team will be expected to fulfil this role, the Techno may be forced to use Software for purposes other than Threading.

Plus, it's not like it's the only specialisation that is rather inclusive in the expected use envelope. Consider Pistols (Semi-Automatics), Automatics (Submachine Guns) or Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled).


The use envelope makes sense even to my rattled brain.

Thanks Heath. Sorry Tiger Eyes, and Jaid, for being stubborn.
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