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Veggiesama
Various questions that came to my mind as I read the Combat chapter and newly rewritten Wireless World chapter (which is mucho awesome, thank you). I have a lot of questions so I'll bold the ones I really want answered.

1. I usually hear that combat is over in one or two combat rounds, thanks to all the IP boosts most people get. But don't hackers/technomancers get a little screwed, even though they're supposed to be so fast?

p145, Switching Initiative.
QUOTE
If the number of Initiative Passes available to a character increases,
that character does not gain the extra Initiative Passes for that turn.
So a magician with 1 IP who takes his frst action to astrally project
(+2 IP) does not gain any extra actions that turn, but he will have 3 IP
for the next turn.


So am I correct in assuming that in the first round of combat I have to find a place to hide and go into VR mode, and that's all I get to do? Meanwhile the street sams get 2-4 rounds of actions. And even when round two comes, I have to still trace the connection, or exploit the node, or whatever, before I even get to do anything useful? Aren't the enemies probably dead by then?

2. Just how intelligent are sprites, anyway? They have "dog-brain" Pilot ratings, but can you hold a conversation with them or expect them to behave intelligently while autonomous?

3. Issuing orders. If I'm issuing orders to a drone/sprite/drone-controlled-by-sprite, do I just do them once ("shoot at those guys!"), or do I have to repeat them each time I want the minion to take an action ("Fire a short burst")? Who actually controls the minion's actions: me or the GM? Who determines when my sprite uses a point of Edge?

4. How does a sprite (most likely a machine sprite) actually control a drone? Does it "issue commands", "remote control", "jump in", or something different? Do you use the sprite's Pilot rating or the drone's? What rolls are used to make the sprite-controlled drone, say, shoot a gun? If the drone has an autosoft (like Defense 3) that the sprite lacks, can the sprite make use of it?


5. If a sprite is controlling a drone I own and have subscribed to, is the sprite still in contact with the me? Does this count as a "remote task" and thus I lose all other tasks?

6. While we're on tasks, what exactly is a task? Can I string together orders, like "Command this drone, follow me, and protect me until the end of the mission?" or would each one of those be a separate task? What happens to the drone when the sprite runs out of tasks?

7. What if I roll no net hits on the compiling test? Does the sprite just disappear, since it owes me no tasks? Can I do a "pretty please" routine (Negotiation roll?) on a sprite to make it do things it doesn't have tasks for?

8. I don't see many drawbacks to re-registering a sprite. Are there any limitations, or can I just accumulate 100+ tasks during downtime?

9. The Diagnostics power. Wow. Limitations? Can I use this on a medkit? A vehicle? A gun? My commlink?

10. I'm having a hard time building a Technomancer with BPs. I took the Spoof complex form, but then I realized I would never actually be able to Spoof unless I first had Trace or Scan to acquire the enemy's access ID. I already spent 35 BP on complex forms, but he still feels extremely inadequate because he lacks important complex forms.

11. What type of action is Threading a complex form? Can I drop a sustained thread before I use another complex form, like how a mage can choose to drop a previously sustained spell before he casts a new spell?

12. Do I receive the hot sim bonus (+2 to all Matrix actions) on threading or fading?

13. Can I take Software (Threading +2) as a specialization?
Tiger Eyes
1. Hack in AR. You use your meat-world initative. Trust me, it won't make a difference.

2. Sprites are sentient. That means they are intelligent (unlike agents) but they don't have metahuman intelligence. Similiar to spirits.

3. Issue order once. Every time you issue a new order (stop shooting a long burst, shoot a short-burst) it is a new task. Don't micromanage your sprites. Micro-managing is for Drone Pilot dog-brains. I have my GM roll for my sprites (makes it more fun for me). He'd rather I rolled for them. He always asks me if I want the sprite to use a point of its edge. Your GM may do it differently.

4. egads.

5. Sprites in the same node as you are with you. If it goes into the drone's node, it's on a remote service. Yes, you loose all remaining tasks. A sprite can remote-control the drone from the same node as you if you are subscribed to it. Heck, the sprite can subscribe it to itself. Or use a registered sprite.

6. Depends on your GM. My GM would call this one task "Use this drone to protect me."

7. If you get no net hits, you get no sprite. There is no negotiation test with sprites; that's the Compiling Test. When your tasks are used up, they're used up.

8. Accumulate away. My GM loves the rating 7 sprites because I end up unconcious more often than not.

9. Limitations on Diagnostics is that the sprite can only add a maximum number of dice equal to your skill. If you have a Pistols skill of 1, even if it gets 8 hits on the Diagnostics Test, it only adds 1 dice to your dice pool. Medkit, yes. Vehicle, yes. Firearm with (internal or external) smartgun system, yes. Commlink - WTF? Why are you using a commlink??? You have two Computer skills?

10. Welcome to building a TM. Try begging your GM for more BPs. (My first TM started the game with her TM skills, and a Perception of 1. That was the only non-computer/compiling/hacking skill she had. Seriously.)

11. Threading is an immediate action; it is not a free, complex, or simple action. Yes, you can thread, drop, thread a new CF, etc. This becomes particularly fun with the Biowires Echo. (I thread unarmed combat. Oh! I drop Unarmed Combat and thread Dodge! Oh, I drop Dodge and thread Blades!). Way fun. Most groups agree that you should only thread 1 time per CF, otherwise you might become the most unpopular player at your table.

12. If you're in Hot Sim, yes.

13. Yes. This is a great specialization. Also consider the Analytical Quality from Runners Companion, which gives you a +2 to Software and a +2 to Data Searches. Nice bang for your buck.
BlueMax
I am wondering why 4 was answered the way it was. We have a Dronomancer in our group and now I am afraid we could have been running something incredibly wrong.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Wow... What Tiger Eyes Said, I guess... Great Answers...

As for AR... My Hacker generally ONLY hacks in AR... with 3 passes, he is just as fast as the VR hacker/technomancer without the specialized gear/echoes... and yes, it generally makes no difference... Unless, of course, you want to slow hack a system, then you gotta go VR.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 14 2009, 08:43 PM) *
I am wondering why 4 was answered the way it was. We have a Dronomancer in our group and now I am afraid we could have been running something incredibly wrong.


Because I didn't want to answer it. nyahnyah.gif (My GM is a big believer in 'handwaiving' those technical aspects. We put sprite in drone, tell sprite to do something, then it happens--and none of us want to think about how it happens, or roll dice for it. Kinda like some groups do with NPC hackers... Which means I'd have to actually look up the rules and stuff. I prefer our method. wink.gif )
Veggiesama
Thanks for all of your answers, but I have a few comments.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 14 2009, 08:27 PM) *
1. Hack in AR. You use your meat-world initative. Trust me, it won't make a difference.

Yes it would. My technomancer has 6 init, 1 pass in meat, but 11 init, 3 passes in VR. The only plausible way I know of getting around this "wasted round" would be to have someone cart me around in a wheelchair everywhere.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 14 2009, 08:27 PM) *
4. egads.

Hmm, I didn't really consider what rolls I had to make to be too technical. Street sams need to know where they're getting all these dice from, so I think my sprite/drone technomancer should too.

There's a table on p247 for different ways that riggers can, well, rig. Is it possible to mix and match?

Remote-controlling an attack is Command + Gunnery, while autonomous control is Pilot + Targeting. If I was a rigger, could I use Command + drone's Targeting instead, or drone's Pilot + my Gunnery skill?

I don't see any column that looks good for a sprite. Sprites don't get Gunnery or Melee skills, so jumped-in and remote-controlled seems out. But does a machine sprite have the know-how to override a drone's Pilot program? There's a mention somewhere of Pilot programs being incompatible between different devices.

I dunno, it might not seem like a big deal, but the amount of dice rolled will be way different depending on which way it goes. The drone by itself rolls Pilot 3 + Targeting 3. If I summon a rating 6 machine sprite, I could be rolling 6 dice (nothing's capatible, sprite is simply issuing commands to the drone), 9 dice (drone's Pilot 3 + sprite's Targeting autosoft 6), or 12 dice (sprite's Pilot 6 + Targeting 6). Rolling 6 dice is kinda wimpy, while 12 dice would be pretty good backup. Plus I don't even know how the Command program would figure in there.

So I'm just wondering how other people do this, since I'm guessing the rules just don't explicitly cover this situation.


QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 14 2009, 08:27 PM) *
5. Sprites in the same node as you are with you. If it goes into the drone's node, it's on a remote service. Yes, you loose all remaining tasks. A sprite can remote-control the drone from the same node as you if you are subscribed to it. Heck, the sprite can subscribe it to itself. Or use a registered sprite.

So let me get this straight. If I want to keep my sprite's services, I'd have to stay logged in to the drone's node? So if the drone gets blown up, I then suffer dumpshock and all that too (unless I guess I log out before it explodes, taking the sprite with me possibly).


QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 14 2009, 08:27 PM) *
9. Limitations on Diagnostics is that the sprite can only add a maximum number of dice equal to your skill. If you have a Pistols skill of 1, even if it gets 8 hits on the Diagnostics Test, it only adds 1 dice to your dice pool. Medkit, yes. Vehicle, yes. Firearm with (internal or external) smartgun system, yes. Commlink - WTF? Why are you using a commlink??? You have two Computer skills?

Oops, thanks. I missed that line. Still, my technomancer is already rolling 19 dice on First Aid tests... so this should be fun.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 14 2009, 08:27 PM) *
10. Welcome to building a TM. Try begging your GM for more BPs. (My first TM started the game with her TM skills, and a Perception of 1. That was the only non-computer/compiling/hacking skill she had. Seriously.)

Heh heh, fat chance. Curious, does anyone know if Technomancers are a little easier to make with karma character creation, or do they still get kicked in the teeth?
Backgammon
QUOTE
Yes it would. My technomancer has 6 init, 1 pass in meat, but 11 init, 3 passes in VR. The only plausible way I know of getting around this "wasted round" would be to have someone cart me around in a wheelchair everywhere.


In my opinion, if you don't have flesh reation/init boosters (and everyone else does), that maks you a NON combat hacker. So you shouldn't physically be anywhere near combat, and if you are, you aren't expected to do anything but duck and hide. So I think you should tag along on legwork, but probably be remote hacking on the more dangerous jobs.
Veggiesama
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Apr 14 2009, 10:05 PM) *
In my opinion, if you don't have flesh reation/init boosters (and everyone else does), that maks you a NON combat hacker. So you shouldn't physically be anywhere near combat, and if you are, you aren't expected to do anything but duck and hide. So I think you should tag along on legwork, but probably be remote hacking on the more dangerous jobs.


=\

That's a real disappointing answer... Technomancers *can't* get cyber/bioware boosts, unless they want to take a penalty to Resonance. And if technos don't make good combat hackers... why is everyone so scared of technomancers again?

And wasn't 4e trying to avoid splitting up the hacker from the rest of the group?

Hmm... I'm somewhat alleviated by the idea that I wouldn't have to issue a command to my drone to make him attack enemies, if I could order a general "defend me from threats" before combat starts.

But honestly, I didn't even want to obsess over sprites/drones, but a plain technomancer simply can't keep up unless he dabbles with them. At least, that's my impression so far.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Apr 14 2009, 09:58 PM) *
Thanks for all of your answers, but I have a few comments.


Yes it would. My technomancer has 6 init, 1 pass in meat, but 11 init, 3 passes in VR. The only plausible way I know of getting around this "wasted round" would be to have someone cart me around in a wheelchair everywhere.


Okay. Here's what my group did in this situation. Before we went into combat, my TM would hack. Find a hidey-hole and hack opponents commlinks, tacnets, cyberware, guns, whatever. Occasionally, in a face-to-face confrontation, our face would stall while I spend a few combat turns hacking, so that when the lead started flying, I could jam the bad-guy's guns, turn off cybereyes, blast out ear drums, screw with cyberware, etc. Or the team would lay down suppressive fire while I dropped into VR and did the hacking thing to tip things our way. However, when we got caught unprepared, it worked like this:

Street Sam, goes first: "I use my first action to push the TM behind cover."
everyone else goes.
TM's goes last: "I hide."

Frankly, after the first few combats where we all got used to what a TM could - and couldn't - do, combats were a lot of fun for all of us (and I spent less time hiding).

Of course, with multi-combat turn combats, that's not as big a deal. You go into VR from your nice hidey-hole, hack, and so be it. Or you have your sprite-controlled drones attack with their 3 IPs.

Now, with a few levels of Acceleration, that's not an issue. 3 IPs in AR. TMs are definately a long-term investment kinda character...
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Apr 14 2009, 10:15 PM) *
But honestly, I didn't even want to obsess over sprites/drones, but a plain technomancer simply can't keep up unless he dabbles with them. At least, that's my impression so far.


We've just now started using drones (surveillance drones only, still no weapon drones), and never had any problem with the TM contributing and pulling her weight. But when we created this team, we built the characters all together - so the others knew the TM would be weak in meat-combat (to start) and compensated for that. And we did *a lot* of combat. But if the combat is over in 3 seconds, then the 4 IP Combat Monsters are going to dominate the scene. If the combat lasts 4 turns, you'll be able to rock.
Jaid
4) you can't mix and match. a sprite should be able to control a drone any of the three separate ways a human can, provided the sprite has the appropriate abilities... this means that generally if you want to do anything other than just giving the drone orders and letting the dog brain act, you're probably gonna want to stick with machine sprites, which can get autosofts that give them appropriate skills for either remote control or rigging (though they don't get +2 hotsim bonus or control rig bonus).

in general, my advice is to use machines sprites remotely controlling the drones. they can then stay in your own node while controlling the drone.

as far as TMs being ineffective in the meatworld, well... as has been said, that's just how TMs are. the best advice i can give is to invest in a PMV of some kind (arsenal helps with that, of course), armor it up, and put a nice gun on it. just ride around in it, and you can stay in VR the whole time. (note: you don't need to directly control the PMV, but if you do, that can allow you to act as a somewhat limited street sam as well. there's all kinds of cheesy rigger-type things you can do to make a TM-rigger an extremely effective build, but i won't go into that unless you specifically want the TM-rigger build. for the record, you can't be a TM-rigger and a TM-hacker. it is very much either/or, at least at first (and probably continuing onwards).

as far as your lack of required CFs, my advice is to pick your top CFs that you expect to always need 100% of the time, and know those. the rest, thread as required, or use sprites (encrypt/decrypt for example are probably best left to a sprite. armor/shield, analyze, stealth, etc are good choices. attack/black hammer/blackout and command are also potentially good choices, because their rating does more than just add dice).

just my 0.002 nuyen.gif
Caadium
A couple of comments:

1. If you have access to Unwired take a look at the echoes in there. With the expenditure of somewhere near 30 karma you can have the equivalent of skillwires and 1 extra meat world Initiative Pass. Up that by about 15 more and you can have 2 extra real world IP. I believe that this is what Tiger Eyes is saying when he says to use AR. Technomancers are definitely characters you make for their long term potential as opposed to their ability to start out as a straight bad-ass.

2. You asked about Karma gen. The short answer is, yes they benefit from it. Most characters benefit from it (maybe all, I'm not totally sure). But technomancers especially get quite a bit out of it. Of course, this is using the numbers from SR4, not SR4A. I've yet to see how SR4A is adapting karma gen (if at all) given the changes in karma costs to attributes.

As I mentioned above, I highly recommend Unwired. I know there are a lot of people that will gripe about the book, and I'm not going to get into that, but I think that chapters that relate to technomancers (technomancer and free sprite specifically) really add a LOT to the characters. They still start out the same, struggling to survive and cover their basis, but the potential for a very interesting and useful character are there through development. Using these rules, I honestly see technomancers as something akin to a D&D mage (3rd or earlier, but especially 2nd and 1st editions); you start of feeling pretty gimpy, but your long term potential is something to behold.
Aaron
For #4, I'd think a sprite would control a drone via the Command program. They aren't Pilot programs in and of themselves (unless they have a power to that effect), so they can't act as the drone, although they could probably give the drone commands (though not as well as the TM could). Sprites don't have a motor cortex, so it would be pretty hard for them to jump into a drone (again, unless they have a power or something). So yeah, I'd call it remote control.
Caadium
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 14 2009, 08:45 PM) *
For #4, I'd think a sprite would control a drone via the Command program. They aren't Pilot programs in and of themselves (unless they have a power to that effect), so they can't act as the drone, although they could probably give the drone commands (though not as well as the TM could). Sprites don't have a motor cortex, so it would be pretty hard for them to jump into a drone (again, unless they have a power or something). So yeah, I'd call it remote control.


I'd think that a Tutor sprite with the appropriate pilot skill would be able to jump into a drone. By their nature of having that skill it is sort of the power that you are referring to as I read it.
Tycho
I don't think Threading is a valid specialisation for Software, because a hacker can't also take "programs" as spec for software and more important, a technomancer can only thread with software so it is a specialisation for 100% of the skills tests which is explicit forbidden by the game rules.

I would not allow Threading as specailisation, instead you have to specialize on a subset like "security CFs" just like a hacker.

cya
Tycho
Ryu
QUOTE
4. How does a sprite (most likely a machine sprite) actually control a drone? Does it "issue commands", "remote control", "jump in", or something different? Do you use the sprite's Pilot rating or the drone's? What rolls are used to make the sprite-controlled drone, say, shoot a gun? If the drone has an autosoft (like Defense 3) that the sprite lacks, can the sprite make use of it?


A sprite can use the Command mechanic, or support a drones autopilot via it´s powers and "enhanced decision-making capabilities". (It could also jump in (not entirely sure), but it is hard to mechanically benefit from that.)

Command: As per dp table. You use the sprites ratings.

Support: You give any orders to the sprite, the sprite micro-manages the drone pilot. Diagnostics is nice. Matrix defense of that drone is taken care of. If you want it simple, you let the drone act at the pilots initiative, and with the pilots ratings enhanced by the sprite.
Aaron
I dunno about the jumping in thing. People can't do it without simsense. AIs can't do it without a special quality. I mean, aren't rigger adapters designed for someone with a motor cortex (part of the organic brain)? Sprites don't exactly need a motor cortex to move their bodies, what with them not actually having bodies.
Malachi
QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 14 2009, 09:45 PM) *
For #4, I'd think a sprite would control a drone via the Command program. They aren't Pilot programs in and of themselves (unless they have a power to that effect), so they can't act as the drone, although they could probably give the drone commands (though not as well as the TM could). Sprites don't have a motor cortex, so it would be pretty hard for them to jump into a drone (again, unless they have a power or something). So yeah, I'd call it remote control.

I agree on the "jumping in" motor cortex thing, Aaron, but I do think that a Sprite can act "as" as drone. The Machine Sprite can have any Autosoft as a CF when you Compile it (optional power), and it also has Command as a CF. So, I see that and kind of "reverse logic" the fact that the only reason a Machine Sprite would have an Autosoft is if it could make rolls on behalf of a Drone as though it were the Pilot program. It can also use the Command CF to Remotely Control drones just as a Rigger does with a Command program, but the fact that it can have an Autosoft implies to me that it can act in place of the Pilot program.

To be my own devil's advocate, though... I suppose the reason a Machine Sprite can have an Autosoft is to allow a drone's Pilot program to use it if it doesn't already have that autosoft. OTOH, the autosoft is a CF and "normal" Matrix icons can't use CF's like a program, only "Resonance entities" can use CF's. Hmmmm....
Ryu
My reasoning was that sprites should have an easier time to adapt to a new body (what with simply loading new drivers). Ruleswise at least the old rules speak of riggers jumping in, so no luck for sprites (what´s it in SR4A?).

I would not give the pilot access to the sprites CFs, but permit the sprite to use Command+Autosoft for tests. Autosofts seem like skillsofts for machines.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Apr 14 2009, 08:15 PM) *
=\

That's a real disappointing answer... Technomancers *can't* get cyber/bioware boosts, unless they want to take a penalty to Resonance. And if technos don't make good combat hackers... why is everyone so scared of technomancers again?


Mages/Adepts tend to have the same problem... Yet most adept builds have Synaptic Accel (sometimes alpha) in them for the initiative. Paying the Magic point cost and living with it. Why don't Technomancers? Yah you lose one resonance but when you initia... err submerge, you're max submergence is your resonance rating, which means you scale up just like adepts and mages do.
Warlordtheft
The way I've been running it has been treating the machine sprites as jumping in rather than remote control. So all the piloting and gunner checks are based on the sprites.
Caadium
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Apr 15 2009, 08:48 AM) *
Mages/Adepts tend to have the same problem... Yet most adept builds have Synaptic Accel (sometimes alpha) in them for the initiative. Paying the Magic point cost and living with it. Why don't Technomancers? Yah you lose one resonance but when you initia... err submerge, you're max submergence is your resonance rating, which means you scale up just like adepts and mages do.


While there is some truth to this, don't overlook the high cost of that synaptic Accelerator. Considering how BP strapped a technomancer already, the bp to pay for that bio isn't as easy to come by.

Ryu
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Apr 15 2009, 04:15 AM) *
That's a real disappointing answer... Technomancers *can't* get cyber/bioware boosts, unless they want to take a penalty to Resonance. And if technos don't make good combat hackers... why is everyone so scared of technomancers again?

You can correct your specific weakness with Acceleration (echo from Unwired).

As for the scare, that would come from CFs amped to 12+ ratings for short amounts of time.
tricwebs
A quick question about Echoes and The Living Persona.
The living persona is limited by the Resonance rating of the technomancer. So, if a technomancer has a Resonance of 5 and an Intuition of 5, is his Response limited to 5 in VR, in effect losing the +1 bonus for VR? Along the same line, would taking the Overclocking echo (+1 to Response) be pointless until the technomancer raises his Resonance?
Dashifen
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 15 2009, 10:53 AM) *
The way I've been running it has been treating the machine sprites as jumping in rather than remote control. So all the piloting and gunner checks are based on the sprites.


That's the way I've run it, too.
Veggiesama
Here's a proposed house rule / clarification in the form of a new Sprite power:

Machine Gnome: Machine sprites may substitute Diagnostics for this power. While inside a vehicle or drone's node, the sprite may override the vehicle or drone's Pilot and autosofts with the its own Rating and optional complex forms. The sprite controls the actions of the drone or vehicle, as if the sprite was rigging it. As long as the sprite possesses the complex form for an autosoft, like Maneuvering, most rolls are equal to its Rating x 2. If not, the sprite can access and employ the autosofts of the vehicle or drone's programming.

CODE
SPRITE-CONTROLLED DRONE DICE POOL
Autosofts:      best autosoft rating available, either loaded into the drone or known by the sprite
Rating:         sprite's Rating, which is the same as the sprite's Pilot and Command programs

Initiative:     as sprite
Attack:         Rating + Targeting (autosoft)
Melee Def:      Rating + Defense (autosoft)
Ranged Def:     Rating
Full Defense:   as above + Defense (autosoft)
Damage Resist:  Body + Armor
Infiltration:   Rating + Covert Ops (autosoft)
Maneuvering:    Rating + Maneuver (autosoft)
Perception:     Sensor + Clearsight (autosoft)
Veggiesama
QUOTE (tricwebs @ Apr 15 2009, 02:21 PM) *
A quick question about Echoes and The Living Persona.
The living persona is limited by the Resonance rating of the technomancer. So, if a technomancer has a Resonance of 5 and an Intuition of 5, is his Response limited to 5 in VR, in effect losing the +1 bonus for VR? Along the same line, would taking the Overclocking echo (+1 to Response) be pointless until the technomancer raises his Resonance?


You know, I was going to say no, but I think this is true. Hackers get a +1 bonus to VR iniatitive, but Technos actually get a straight-up +1 Response (not just to Initiative): "When technomancers immerse themselves in full VR, they are always considered to be running with hot sim (p. 226); the speed bonus for hot sim is already calculated into their Response and Initiative."

The words "the speed bonus for hot sim is already calculated" are poorly chosen, because it implies that Technos work the same as Hackers, when in fact they don't. Technomancers get a +1 bonus to Initiative, two extra initiative passes, and a +2 to all Matrix actions (all the stuff that hot sims do), but they ALSO get +1 Response in VR on top of that.

I guess it could also be argued that they get a +1 bonus to Response tests, and not +1 Response, which means Resonance wouldn't limit it.

Hmmm... I think I just freed up 10 BP for my technomancer. =)
Jaid
QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 14 2009, 11:31 PM) *
I don't think Threading is a valid specialisation for Software, because a hacker can't also take "programs" as spec for software and more important, a technomancer can only thread with software so it is a specialisation for 100% of the skills tests which is explicit forbidden by the game rules.

I would not allow Threading as specailisation, instead you have to specialize on a subset like "security CFs" just like a hacker.

cya
Tycho

i hear this a lot, but haven't yet seen anyone provide solid support for this.

the TM version of a skill accomplishes the same thing as the normal skill, but in a different way. technomancers can program software. many of them won't care to, many of them won't have time to, but they can. they can code perfectly normal software using their technomancer skill, and that software will run just fine on a normal node, but not on a resonance entity. if you were to watch a technomancer coding software, you'd probably be thinking "wth is this guy doing?" but it would still result in a perfectly ordinary program at the end of it all.

now i can still see how you might feel threading is not a legitimate specialisation. it's really quite up in the air... it isn't an official one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an allowed one.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2009, 05:31 PM) *
now i can still see how you might feel threading is not a legitimate specialisation. it's really quite up in the air... it isn't an official one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an allowed one.


As officially as I can, I will say this is an allowed specialization. Don't be surprised to see it on NPCs in upcoming products. A GM can choose not to let a PC take Threading as a specialization of Software (GMs always have discretion to do what they want at their own table), but there will be NPCs in SR products that have it.
Tycho
The thing is, why should a technomancer write a normal program he could not even use himself. A Technomancer will use software foremost and in the most cases only to thread CFs, so this specialization is in my opinion far too powerful, because it generates 2 bonus dice on every relevant test. The official specializations are quite good anyway.

Moreover in official products only the legal specializations, which are listed by the skills, should be used, because anything else would be a houserule and these should not be part of any official products, even if the developers use them at home.

cya
Tycho
BlueMax
QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 15 2009, 03:33 PM) *
The thing is, why should a technomancer write a normal program he could not even use himself. A Technomancer will use software foremost and in the most cases only to thread CFs, so this specialization is in my opinion fare to powerful, because it generates 2 bonus dice on every relevant test. The official specializations are quite good anyway.

Moreover in official products only the legal specializations, which are listed by the skills, should be used, because anything else would be a houserule and these should not be part of any official products, even if the developers use them at home.

cya
Tycho


Why cant a TM enter his commlink and attack from his commlink using regular programs? Your first sentence has me missing something.

I know the color says its "auld schule" but its a great way to look just like a normal hacker.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2009, 03:31 PM) *
i hear this a lot, but haven't yet seen anyone provide solid support for this.

the TM version of a skill accomplishes the same thing as the normal skill, but in a different way. technomancers can program software. many of them won't care to, many of them won't have time to, but they can. they can code perfectly normal software using their technomancer skill, and that software will run just fine on a normal node, but not on a resonance entity. if you were to watch a technomancer coding software, you'd probably be thinking "wth is this guy doing?" but it would still result in a perfectly ordinary program at the end of it all.

now i can still see how you might feel threading is not a legitimate specialisation. it's really quite up in the air... it isn't an official one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an allowed one.



Actually, You should probably read Page 233 of the SR4 BBB (not sure the page in SR4A), Titled Technomancer Skills... They are most definitely NOT the same skills, and they cannot use their technomancer skills to code normal software, or operate normal (read Technological) applications of Hardware, Electronic Warefare, Cyber Combat, Data Search, Computer OR Hacking...

It is spelled out in detail... If technomancers want to be able to mimic the Old-Fashioned (to them anyway) methods of the classic Hacker, then they MUST TAKE THESE SKILLS AGAIN FOR MUNDANE USE (or use Activesofts)...

Also... I would definitely allow a Threading Specialization...

My Two Cents
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 15 2009, 05:33 PM) *
The thing is, why should a technomancer write a normal program he could not even use himself. A Technomancer will use software foremost and in the most cases only to thread CFs, so this specialization is in my opinion fare to powerful, because it generates 2 bonus dice on every relevant test. The official specializations are quite good anyway.

Moreover in official products only the legal specializations, which are listed by the skills, should be used, because anything else would be a houserule and these should not be part of any official products, even if the developers use them at home.

cya
Tycho



How can it be a houserule, if it is included in oficial product, that makes absolutely no sense...
The list of specializations given for the skills are EXAMPLES, and are not exausstive in any way, shape, or form...

Again, My Two Cents...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 15 2009, 05:36 PM) *
Why cant a TM enter his commlink and attack from his commlink using regular programs? Your first sentence has me missing something.

I know the color says its "auld schule" but its a great way to look just like a normal hacker.



He could appear to be using a comlink, but why should he limit his true capabilities through tech that is an outmoded thing for him?

Again, Technomancers CANNOT use standard programs without the use of the Mundane Hacking/Electronic skills to go along with them (See Page 233, SR4 BBB, Technomancer Skills)... why should he pay twice (Once for the CF and once for the Program) for things that he can just conjur in his mind (thread)? You are apparently choosing to ignore the differences that make Technomancers what they are...
Tycho
I looked in the book and could not find any text, that stated you can make up specializations as you wish, nor that the given specializations are only examples.

In my opinion its ok to make new specializations in your group, but official products should stick to the official rules, in which "threading" is not a specialization for Software.

cya
Tycho
BlueMax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2009, 04:44 PM) *
He could appear to be using a comlink, but why should he limit his true capabilities through tech that is an outmoded thing for him?

Again, Technomancers CANNOT use standard programs without the use of the Mundane Hacking/Electronic skills to go along with them (See Page 233, SR4 BBB, Technomancer Skills)... why should he pay twice (Once for the CF and once for the Program) for things that he can just conjur in his mind (thread)? You are apparently choosing to ignore the differences that make Technomancers what they are...


I won't answer the first section, as I would not want to limit anyone and disagree with the the tone.

The second section is correct and I would like to thank you for pointing out the section, page and name. Tiger Eyes, I just checked with my buddy who has SR4A and its on page 239 there. If the only purpose of TM Software is to thread, why should they specialize?

BlueMax
/ With the intent of Humor, Pistols(Shooting Stuff)
Bobfly
Lookit all dat TM discussion.

I have a few questions myself! This seems like an appropriate place to ask them.

- Can you seriously thread skillsoft CFs, that seems crazy. I suppose if you had a tutor sprite buddy with the CF then you could emulate his.

- If my dude takes the Macro echo, would you say he could do 2 extended actions at the same time at the -2 penalty?

- Since TMs use the software skill differently than hackers, would you all say they get the benefit from programming suites and environments like hackers do if they decide to code programs? Why would they want to you ask? Well, why not? (Okay, autosofts are pretty good candidates)

- What makes code sprites so awesome? They seem pretty limited to me. Sure, probability distribution is a fantastic ability, but the sprite has no stealth CF. If you run into IC, having that sprite along with you is going to set off alarms like WHOA. Or can they use it in nodes they aren't in? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

- Similarly, paladin sprites. Castling is cool, but then they'll be using all their actions taking your damage and not hitting anything back. And they can't use hardening along with it, can they?

- If I thread a complex form that creates a lasting effect (Encrypt, Data Bomb, etc.), do I have to keep sustaining it to get the benefit of the improved rating? Or can I just plant it and be happy?

- This one is only halfway connected to TMs, but if you want to discourage someone from hacking into your drones, where do you put that nasty, evil pavlov-databomb? In your commlink (brain (welp))? In the drone? oh god i am not good with fictional electronic warfare

(Oh, and Tycho, please please stop signing your posts. Your name is RIGHT THERE on the left. Pet peeve.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tycho @ Apr 15 2009, 05:57 PM) *
I looked in the book and could not find any text, that stated you can make up specializations as you wish, nor that the given specializations are only examples.

In my opinion its ok to make new specializations in your group, but official products should stick to the official rules, in which "threading" is not a specialization for Software.

cya
Tycho


Again... If it is included in official product, the intent is pretty clear... the examples of specializations are just that examples... obviously, the writers/devs think that they are examples, as specializations not listed are obviously going to be in published books...

Are you going to tell me that because a skill is not listed, that I cannot take it? See page 127 of the BBB for clarification (Special Active Skills)...

Also, in the Choosing Knowledge Skills section (page 127), it is explicitly stated that specializations should be a more focused sub-category of the broad skill... now, it does not explicitly state that this should apply to the active skills, but it is implied, so much so that developers and writers will be using specialties that are not explicitly listed under the skills in the book...

Ergo... the implication is that you can create sub-categories of specialization that are not listed for skillsthat you possess (and is obviously not a house-rule)...


Of course, you may not interpret it that way... but when the company that produces the product does, well, so will I...

My 1/2 Cent
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Bobfly @ Apr 15 2009, 08:20 PM) *
Lookit all dat TM discussion.

I have a few questions myself! This seems like an appropriate place to ask them.

- Can you seriously thread skillsoft CFs, that seems crazy. I suppose if you had a tutor sprite buddy with the CF then you could emulate his.


You can emulate a skillsoft if you take the biowire echo. You must have the skillsoft. It would be up to your GM if she'd allow you to emulate a Tutor sprite's skillsoft (but hey, cool loophole if your GM lets you!). The rules don't disallow it (that I see), but my common sense says no. Well, maybe with a resonance bond with the sprite....

QUOTE
- If my dude takes the Macro echo, would you say he could do 2 extended actions at the same time at the -2 penalty?


It specifically says 'with a single Complex Action'. Extended tests aren't normally one complex action... I'd say no.

QUOTE
- Since TMs use the software skill differently than hackers, would you all say they get the benefit from programming suites and environments like hackers do if they decide to code programs? Why would they want to you ask? Well, why not? (Okay, autosofts are pretty good candidates)


I'd say sure, if your GM will allow it. I believe a TM can code a software program for use by another user with their Software skill (one reason Singularity is doing so well, in fact, since the Matrix corp is headed by a technomancer, and is known for producing very unusual code that defies other corps attempts to reverse-engineer or crack it...

QUOTE
- What makes code sprites so awesome? They seem pretty limited to me. Sure, probability distribution is a fantastic ability, but the sprite has no stealth CF. If you run into IC, having that sprite along with you is going to set off alarms like WHOA. Or can they use it in nodes they aren't in? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


One word: Info Sortilage.

QUOTE
- Similarly, paladin sprites. Castling is cool, but then they'll be using all their actions taking your damage and not hitting anything back. And they can't use hardening along with it, can they?


Yes, they can do both Castling and Hardening at the same time. A rating 7 Paladin sprite rolls 35 dice in full defense.

Response 9 + Firewall 9 + Shield 7 + Expert Defense 3 + Rating 7 = 35 dice.

And blackhammer/blackout have no effect on sprites. That means that you can walk into Matrix combat, do your thing, and completely ignore everyone attacking you. What else do you want them to do? If you want one to attack, have 2 Paladins...

QUOTE
- If I thread a complex form that creates a lasting effect (Encrypt, Data Bomb, etc.), do I have to keep sustaining it to get the benefit of the improved rating? Or can I just plant it and be happy?


Once you place a databomb, it does not need to be sustained. Ditto with Encryption.

QUOTE
- This one is only halfway connected to TMs, but if you want to discourage someone from hacking into your drones, where do you put that nasty, evil pavlov-databomb? In your commlink (brain (welp))? In the drone? oh god i am not good with fictional electronic warfare


In the drone. Only another TM can hack your bio-node, and do you really want a databomb in it?
Caadium
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 15 2009, 08:04 PM) *
You can emulate a skillsoft if you take the biowire echo. You must have the skillsoft. It would be up to your GM if she'd allow you to emulate a Tutor sprite's skillsoft (but hey, cool loophole if your GM lets you!). The rules don't disallow it (that I see), but my common sense says no. Well, maybe with a resonance bond with the sprite....


I would say that if you had Biowires you could use the Proficiency ability of a tutor sprite to use it's skillsoft(s) at 1/2 sprite rating (as the sprite power details). Otherwise, I'd agree that you can't emulate the sprites version straight across. However, I'd be open to using a Tutor Sprite to teach you how to create/emulate a version of the program if you were taking the time to memorize it (along with the appropriate amount of course).


QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 15 2009, 08:04 PM) *
Yes, they can do both Castling and Hardening at the same time. A rating 7 Paladin sprite rolls 35 dice in full defense.

Response 9 + Firewall 9 + Shield 7 + Expert Defense 3 + Rating 7 = 35 dice.

And blackhammer/blackout have no effect on sprites. That means that you can walk into Matrix combat, do your thing, and completely ignore everyone attacking you. What else do you want them to do? If you want one to attack, have 2 Paladins...


I admit, this one confuses me. How can Paladin sprites both Castle and Harden at the same time? Both powers require a Complex action per their description. I could be reading it wrong, but the way I see it they are not sustained powers. At the very least, I'd say that is true of Hardening which specifically says:

QUOTE (Unwired, pg 156)
Using Hardening counts as a Complex Action, similar to going on Full Defense


That being said, I don't see how a Paladin sprite could go on Full Defense and Harden at the same time. They can simply choose to toughen up and ignore the wound instead of making an extra effort to get out of the way. At least thats how I read that. If I am wrong please correct me.
Jaid
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2009, 07:38 PM) *
Actually, You should probably read Page 233 of the SR4 BBB (not sure the page in SR4A), Titled Technomancer Skills... They are most definitely NOT the same skills, and they cannot use their technomancer skills to code normal software, or operate normal (read Technological) applications of Hardware, Electronic Warefare, Cyber Combat, Data Search, Computer OR Hacking...

It is spelled out in detail... If technomancers want to be able to mimic the Old-Fashioned (to them anyway) methods of the classic Hacker, then they MUST TAKE THESE SKILLS AGAIN FOR MUNDANE USE (or use Activesofts)...

Also... I would definitely allow a Threading Specialization...

My Two Cents

once again, yes the skill is different.

but if a technomancer uses data search and looks up "aztechnology" he doesn't get information about planting roses in subarctic temperatures using only 3 pennies and a pack of gum, he gets information about aztechnology.

if he uses cybercombat to attack, it doesn't put him into a simsense recording of his early childhood, it introduces faults into his opponent's programs.

if he uses hardware to put together a matrix device to store his personal data, it doesn't come out as a steel lynx drone, it comes out as a bloody storage server.

and when he uses software to code a program, it comes out as a bloody program. not as a mangled-up mess of random numbers and letters. it may not follow standard coding conventions, it may not be pretty, it may not have any comments in it, and if you were to watch him put it together, it probably wouldn't make sense how he came up with the finished product. but it is still a bloody program. it runs on a commlink, just like a normal program would. because while the means to the end change, the end result is still the same when a technomancer uses their skills. the program is not the means, it is the end, therefore even though the technomancer might use nonstandard means to arrive at the same end as what a hacker might do, it *still* comes up with the same end.

as far as why it might be useful, well, first off it means they can crack programs. like agents. secondly, it means they can design programs they can't thread. like agents. or worms, or viruses, or other malware. thirdly, it means they can design/crack programs for any agents, worms, virus, etc that they might happen to have made.
Bobfly
Thanks for answering my questions, Tiger Eyes. There are a few things I HAVE TO COMMENT ON GRAAAH though.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
It specifically says 'with a single Complex Action'. Extended tests aren't normally one complex action... I'd say no.


That's not what I meant. I meant doing an extended action, and then doing another extended action alongside it. They would still both be extended actions (dur nyahnyah.gif ). The rationale here being that Macro essentially lets you take your initiative pass twice (okay, apart from that extra free action), so you do that every turn until the extended action(s) is/are completed. I can see how this could be unbalancing though, even bearing in mind that it only applies to matrix actions.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
One word: Info Sortilege.


Two words! :V
But yeah. Excellent point... Though the same problem is still somewhat present - what if the trail leads you/it into a secure node? Oh, and I'd still like to see how someone would put Probability Distribution to good use.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
Yes, they can do both Castling and Hardening at the same time. A rating 7 Paladin sprite rolls 35 dice in full defense.

Response 9 + Firewall 9 + Shield 7 + Expert Defense 3 + Rating 7 = 35 dice.

And blackhammer/blackout have no effect on sprites. That means that you can walk into Matrix combat, do your thing, and completely ignore everyone attacking you. What else do you want them to do? If you want one to attack, have 2 Paladins...


I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling you here. Like Caadium said, aren't Castling and Hardening both complex actions? Also, as far as I understand Castling, the sprite doesn't take your defence roll for you, it just takes the damage if you get hit (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Being wrong here would be pretty awesome).

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Apr 16 2009, 05:04 AM) *
In the drone. Only another TM can hack your bio-node, and do you really want a databomb in it?

-Guys, I put a bomb in my brain!
-You put a BOMB in your BRAIN!? Are you NUTS!?

Heh.

So, because I'm slow, can you put it somewhere so anyone who accesses the drone gets bombed? If so, is there any way for intruders to detect the bomb without setting it off? And if they do get bombed, do they still have access to the drone?

EDIT: Oh! Oh! I have another one! If I have a resonance of 6 and get some cyberware to reduce it to 5, do I pay 18 or 21 karma to raise it back up to 6? Meaning, is my resonance now 5, or is it still 6, but with only 5 of the points 'functioning'?
Ryu
QUOTE (Bobfly @ Apr 16 2009, 12:35 PM) *
I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling you here. Like Caadium said, aren't Castling and Hardening both complex actions? Also, as far as I understand Castling, the sprite doesn't take your defence roll for you, it just takes the damage if you get hit (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Being wrong here would be pretty awesome).

Using a power on something is a complex action, sustaining that use isn´t. And there is no penalty for sustaining a power (but a limit to (res/mag) active powers).
Ard3
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 16 2009, 02:44 AM) *
Again, Technomancers CANNOT use standard programs without the use of the Mundane Hacking/Electronic skills to go along with them (See Page 233, SR4 BBB, Technomancer Skills).


Just to make thing clear, in 1.8 errata, this was changed. Link
About middle of the document.

p. 233 Technomancer Skills
The first line should read:
Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers use
to handle sprites (see p. 119), technomancers use the same
skills common to hackers—Computer, Cybercombat, Data
Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking, Hardware, and Software.

Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Bobfly @ Apr 16 2009, 06:35 AM) *
Thanks for answering my questions, Tiger Eyes. There are a few things I HAVE TO COMMENT ON GRAAAH though.

But yeah. Excellent point... Though the same problem is still somewhat present - what if the trail leads you/it into a secure node? Oh, and I'd still like to see how someone would put Probability Distribution to good use.

If the trail leads it to a secure node, it comes back to you and says, "I dunno what's in there, but I'm pretty sure it's relevant. Have fun storming the castle."

QUOTE
I'm not entirely sure I'm feeling you here. Like Caadium said, aren't Castling and Hardening both complex actions? Also, as far as I understand Castling, the sprite doesn't take your defence roll for you, it just takes the damage if you get hit (Please correct me if I'm wrong. Being wrong here would be pretty awesome).


No, the sprite redirects the attack. As for the rest, I agree with Jaid.

QUOTE
So, because I'm slow, can you put it somewhere so anyone who accesses the drone gets bombed? If so, is there any way for intruders to detect the bomb without setting it off? And if they do get bombed, do they still have access to the drone?

EDIT: Oh! Oh! I have another one! If I have a resonance of 6 and get some cyberware to reduce it to 5, do I pay 18 or 21 karma to raise it back up to 6? Meaning, is my resonance now 5, or is it still 6, but with only 5 of the points 'functioning'?


A Matrix Perception test can provide the info that there is a Data Bomb (p. 228, SR4A). You can set a databomb to trigger when someone logs into a node without the correct passcode. Read the Set Data Bomb action, p. 231, SR4A. Yes, they are nasty now. Aaron made them the bane of my TM's life (literally).

As for the resonance: if you start out with Resonance 6, and drop it to 5 because of 'ware, your maximum (until submersion) is 5. I believe you'd pay 6*5 = 30 karma to raise it back to 6 (I could be wrong. Maybe you'd have to pay 7*5=35? Anyone else find that in the book?). Mind, while it is 5, that limits all your CF, your compiling, fading damage from compiling & threading (will be Physical damage if you thread a CF over 5, ditto for sprites), your Living Persona... TMs get really screwed losing that point of resonance (more so than mages/adepts; TMs have more things that rely or link to Resonance).

Instead of paying that 30 karma to raise it back to 6, why not submerge twice, and get biowires & a level of acceleration. You'll be suddenly much improved in combat, and you won't have to suffer thru the dings from having a lower resonance.
Biokinetica
Do you roll your active skill plus resonance and complex form, or just resonance (ordered by SR4, then SR4A)? Ex: Res + Software + Edit vs. Res + edit.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Ard3 @ Apr 16 2009, 06:52 AM) *
Just to make thing clear, in 1.8 errata, this was changed. Link
About middle of the document.

p. 233 Technomancer Skills
The first line should read:
Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers use
to handle sprites (see p. 119), technomancers use the same
skills common to hackers—Computer, Cybercombat, Data
Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking, Hardware, and Software.



This may sound like a coincidence but I was up all night programming. Since I am going in late, I've had our guy with SR4A complete your quote from SR4A page 239.
QUOTE
Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers use to handle sprites (p. 240), technomancers use the same skills common to hackers:
Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking,Hardware, and Software. The way technomancers use these skills, however,
is vastly different from the way non-technomancers use them. Technomancers exercise these skills through mental gymnastics and
an intuitive feel for the functioning of the machine world; they do not learn to use electronics so much as they learn to make devices and
software do what they want.
As a result, the technomancer versions of these skills are fundamentally different from the standard versions. In game terms, technomancers
may never teach these skills to non-technomancers, nor are the technomancer skill versions available as skillsofts. Technomancers
may learn the “normal? versions of these skills separately (or use normal skillsofts), but they often find the normal way of doing things
to be hopelessly clumsy and backward.


So if what I was sent is correct, the skills are "fundamentally different". My question
"What would a TM do with TM Software besides threading?"
Can regular Hackers take Specialization (Non-Threading)?

Apologies if this misses the point, I am suffering some nasty fading.
Heath Robinson
Tiger Eyes,

RAW for raising attributes is still just based off New Rating. Even for Magic/Resonance/Edge. It would just be 30 karma, or 4 sessions at the new stated expection for karma/session.

BlueMax,

The skills function for all the same uses as for mundanes. You can use Technomancer Software to write a program. Whilst most Technomancers are of the "screw the world, I have my specialness" personality some will use Software to do things other than thread. Since Unwired also the need to acquire patches for programs that you want to use whilst 'running, and the Matrix Specialist of a long term team will be expected to fulfil this role, the Techno may be forced to use Software for purposes other than Threading.

Plus, it's not like it's the only specialisation that is rather inclusive in the expected use envelope. Consider Pistols (Semi-Automatics), Automatics (Submachine Guns) or Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled).
Malachi
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 16 2009, 09:40 AM) *
Plus, it's not like it's the only specialisation that is rather inclusive in the expected use envelope. Consider Pistols (Semi-Automatics), Automatics (Submachine Guns) or Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled).

Exactly, or Dodge (Ranged), or Perception (Visual). There are lots of places where you can specialize in the "most common use" of a skill. If you can spend the BP to do it, why not?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 16 2009, 08:40 AM) *
BlueMax,

The skills function for all the same uses as for mundanes. You can use Technomancer Software to write a program. Whilst most Technomancers are of the "screw the world, I have my specialness" personality some will use Software to do things other than thread. Since Unwired also the need to acquire patches for programs that you want to use whilst 'running, and the Matrix Specialist of a long term team will be expected to fulfil this role, the Techno may be forced to use Software for purposes other than Threading.

Plus, it's not like it's the only specialisation that is rather inclusive in the expected use envelope. Consider Pistols (Semi-Automatics), Automatics (Submachine Guns) or Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled).


The use envelope makes sense even to my rattled brain.

Thanks Heath. Sorry Tiger Eyes, and Jaid, for being stubborn.
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