Technomancer questions (SR4A) Options

[Veggiesama]

Various questions that came to my mind as I read the Combat chapter and newly rewritten Wireless World chapter (which is mucho awesome, thank you). I have a lot of questions so I'll bold the ones I really want answered.

1. I usually hear that combat is over in one or two combat rounds, thanks to all the IP boosts most people get. But don't hackers/technomancers get a little screwed, even though they're supposed to be so fast?

p145, Switching Initiative.

If the number of Initiative Passes available to a character increases,
that character does not gain the extra Initiative Passes for that turn.
So a magician with 1 IP who takes his frst action to astrally project
(+2 IP) does not gain any extra actions that turn, but he will have 3 IP
for the next turn.

So am I correct in assuming that in the first round of combat I have to find a place to hide and go into VR mode, and that's all I get to do? Meanwhile the street sams get 2-4 rounds of actions. And even when round two comes, I have to still trace the connection, or exploit the node, or whatever, before I even get to do anything useful? Aren't the enemies probably dead by then?

2. Just how intelligent are sprites, anyway? They have "dog-brain" Pilot ratings, but can you hold a conversation with them or expect them to behave intelligently while autonomous?

3. Issuing orders. If I'm issuing orders to a drone/sprite/drone-controlled-by-sprite, do I just do them once ("shoot at those guys!"), or do I have to repeat them each time I want the minion to take an action ("Fire a short burst")? Who actually controls the minion's actions: me or the GM? Who determines when my sprite uses a point of Edge?

4. How does a sprite (most likely a machine sprite) actually control a drone? Does it "issue commands", "remote control", "jump in", or something different? Do you use the sprite's Pilot rating or the drone's? What rolls are used to make the sprite-controlled drone, say, shoot a gun? If the drone has an autosoft (like Defense 3) that the sprite lacks, can the sprite make use of it?

5. If a sprite is controlling a drone I own and have subscribed to, is the sprite still in contact with the me? Does this count as a "remote task" and thus I lose all other tasks?

6. While we're on tasks, what exactly is a task? Can I string together orders, like "Command this drone, follow me, and protect me until the end of the mission?" or would each one of those be a separate task? What happens to the drone when the sprite runs out of tasks?

7. What if I roll no net hits on the compiling test? Does the sprite just disappear, since it owes me no tasks? Can I do a "pretty please" routine (Negotiation roll?) on a sprite to make it do things it doesn't have tasks for?

8. I don't see many drawbacks to re-registering a sprite. Are there any limitations, or can I just accumulate 100+ tasks during downtime?

9. The Diagnostics power. Wow. Limitations? Can I use this on a medkit? A vehicle? A gun? My commlink?

10. I'm having a hard time building a Technomancer with BPs. I took the Spoof complex form, but then I realized I would never actually be able to Spoof unless I first had Trace or Scan to acquire the enemy's access ID. I already spent 35 BP on complex forms, but he still feels extremely inadequate because he lacks important complex forms.

11. What type of action is Threading a complex form? Can I drop a sustained thread before I use another complex form, like how a mage can choose to drop a previously sustained spell before he casts a new spell?

12. Do I receive the hot sim bonus (+2 to all Matrix actions) on threading or fading?

13. Can I take Software (Threading +2) as a specialization?

[Tiger Eyes]

1. Hack in AR. You use your meat-world initative. Trust me, it won't make a difference.

2. Sprites are sentient. That means they are intelligent (unlike agents) but they don't have metahuman intelligence. Similiar to spirits.

3. Issue order once. Every time you issue a new order (stop shooting a long burst, shoot a short-burst) it is a new task. Don't micromanage your sprites. Micro-managing is for Drone Pilot dog-brains. I have my GM roll for my sprites (makes it more fun for me). He'd rather I rolled for them. He always asks me if I want the sprite to use a point of its edge. Your GM may do it differently.

4. egads.

5. Sprites in the same node as you are with you. If it goes into the drone's node, it's on a remote service. Yes, you loose all remaining tasks. A sprite can remote-control the drone from the same node as you if you are subscribed to it. Heck, the sprite can subscribe it to itself. Or use a registered sprite.

6. Depends on your GM. My GM would call this one task "Use this drone to protect me."

7. If you get no net hits, you get no sprite. There is no negotiation test with sprites; that's the Compiling Test. When your tasks are used up, they're used up.

8. Accumulate away. My GM loves the rating 7 sprites because I end up unconcious more often than not.

9. Limitations on Diagnostics is that the sprite can only add a maximum number of dice equal to your skill. If you have a Pistols skill of 1, even if it gets 8 hits on the Diagnostics Test, it only adds 1 dice to your dice pool. Medkit, yes. Vehicle, yes. Firearm with (internal or external) smartgun system, yes. Commlink - WTF? Why are you using a commlink??? You have two Computer skills?

10. Welcome to building a TM. Try begging your GM for more BPs. (My first TM started the game with her TM skills, and a Perception of 1. That was the only non-computer/compiling/hacking skill she had. Seriously.)

11. Threading is an immediate action; it is not a free, complex, or simple action. Yes, you can thread, drop, thread a new CF, etc. This becomes particularly fun with the Biowires Echo. (I thread unarmed combat. Oh! I drop Unarmed Combat and thread Dodge! Oh, I drop Dodge and thread Blades!). Way fun. Most groups agree that you should only thread 1 time per CF, otherwise you might become the most unpopular player at your table.

12. If you're in Hot Sim, yes.

13. Yes. This is a great specialization. Also consider the Analytical Quality from Runners Companion, which gives you a +2 to Software and a +2 to Data Searches. Nice bang for your buck.

[BlueMax]

I am wondering why 4 was answered the way it was. We have a Dronomancer in our group and now I am afraid we could have been running something incredibly wrong.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wow... What Tiger Eyes Said, I guess... Great Answers...

As for AR... My Hacker generally ONLY hacks in AR... with 3 passes, he is just as fast as the VR hacker/technomancer without the specialized gear/echoes... and yes, it generally makes no difference... Unless, of course, you want to slow hack a system, then you gotta go VR.

[Tiger Eyes]

I am wondering why 4 was answered the way it was. We have a Dronomancer in our group and now I am afraid we could have been running something incredibly wrong.

Because I didn't want to answer it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (My GM is a big believer in 'handwaiving' those technical aspects. We put sprite in drone, tell sprite to do something, then it happens--and none of us want to think about how it happens, or roll dice for it. Kinda like some groups do with NPC hackers... Which means I'd have to actually look up the rules and stuff. I prefer our method. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Veggiesama]

Thanks for all of your answers, but I have a few comments.

1. Hack in AR. You use your meat-world initative. Trust me, it won't make a difference.

Yes it would. My technomancer has 6 init, 1 pass in meat, but 11 init, 3 passes in VR. The only plausible way I know of getting around this "wasted round" would be to have someone cart me around in a wheelchair everywhere.

4. egads.

Hmm, I didn't really consider what rolls I had to make to be too technical. Street sams need to know where they're getting all these dice from, so I think my sprite/drone technomancer should too.

There's a table on p247 for different ways that riggers can, well, rig. Is it possible to mix and match?

Remote-controlling an attack is Command + Gunnery, while autonomous control is Pilot + Targeting. If I was a rigger, could I use Command + drone's Targeting instead, or drone's Pilot + my Gunnery skill?

I don't see any column that looks good for a sprite. Sprites don't get Gunnery or Melee skills, so jumped-in and remote-controlled seems out. But does a machine sprite have the know-how to override a drone's Pilot program? There's a mention somewhere of Pilot programs being incompatible between different devices.

I dunno, it might not seem like a big deal, but the amount of dice rolled will be way different depending on which way it goes. The drone by itself rolls Pilot 3 + Targeting 3. If I summon a rating 6 machine sprite, I could be rolling 6 dice (nothing's capatible, sprite is simply issuing commands to the drone), 9 dice (drone's Pilot 3 + sprite's Targeting autosoft 6), or 12 dice (sprite's Pilot 6 + Targeting 6). Rolling 6 dice is kinda wimpy, while 12 dice would be pretty good backup. Plus I don't even know how the Command program would figure in there.

So I'm just wondering how other people do this, since I'm guessing the rules just don't explicitly cover this situation.

5. Sprites in the same node as you are with you. If it goes into the drone's node, it's on a remote service. Yes, you loose all remaining tasks. A sprite can remote-control the drone from the same node as you if you are subscribed to it. Heck, the sprite can subscribe it to itself. Or use a registered sprite.

So let me get this straight. If I want to keep my sprite's services, I'd have to stay logged in to the drone's node? So if the drone gets blown up, I then suffer dumpshock and all that too (unless I guess I log out before it explodes, taking the sprite with me possibly).

9. Limitations on Diagnostics is that the sprite can only add a maximum number of dice equal to your skill. If you have a Pistols skill of 1, even if it gets 8 hits on the Diagnostics Test, it only adds 1 dice to your dice pool. Medkit, yes. Vehicle, yes. Firearm with (internal or external) smartgun system, yes. Commlink - WTF? Why are you using a commlink??? You have two Computer skills?

Oops, thanks. I missed that line. Still, my technomancer is already rolling 19 dice on First Aid tests... so this should be fun.

10. Welcome to building a TM. Try begging your GM for more BPs. (My first TM started the game with her TM skills, and a Perception of 1. That was the only non-computer/compiling/hacking skill she had. Seriously.)

Heh heh, fat chance. Curious, does anyone know if Technomancers are a little easier to make with karma character creation, or do they still get kicked in the teeth?

[Backgammon]

Yes it would. My technomancer has 6 init, 1 pass in meat, but 11 init, 3 passes in VR. The only plausible way I know of getting around this "wasted round" would be to have someone cart me around in a wheelchair everywhere.

In my opinion, if you don't have flesh reation/init boosters (and everyone else does), that maks you a NON combat hacker. So you shouldn't physically be anywhere near combat, and if you are, you aren't expected to do anything but duck and hide. So I think you should tag along on legwork, but probably be remote hacking on the more dangerous jobs.

[Veggiesama]

In my opinion, if you don't have flesh reation/init boosters (and everyone else does), that maks you a NON combat hacker. So you shouldn't physically be anywhere near combat, and if you are, you aren't expected to do anything but duck and hide. So I think you should tag along on legwork, but probably be remote hacking on the more dangerous jobs.

=\

That's a real disappointing answer... Technomancers *can't* get cyber/bioware boosts, unless they want to take a penalty to Resonance. And if technos don't make good combat hackers... why is everyone so scared of technomancers again?

And wasn't 4e trying to avoid splitting up the hacker from the rest of the group?

Hmm... I'm somewhat alleviated by the idea that I wouldn't have to issue a command to my drone to make him attack enemies, if I could order a general "defend me from threats" before combat starts.

But honestly, I didn't even want to obsess over sprites/drones, but a plain technomancer simply can't keep up unless he dabbles with them. At least, that's my impression so far.

[Tiger Eyes]

Thanks for all of your answers, but I have a few comments.


Yes it would. My technomancer has 6 init, 1 pass in meat, but 11 init, 3 passes in VR. The only plausible way I know of getting around this "wasted round" would be to have someone cart me around in a wheelchair everywhere.

Okay. Here's what my group did in this situation. Before we went into combat, my TM would hack. Find a hidey-hole and hack opponents commlinks, tacnets, cyberware, guns, whatever. Occasionally, in a face-to-face confrontation, our face would stall while I spend a few combat turns hacking, so that when the lead started flying, I could jam the bad-guy's guns, turn off cybereyes, blast out ear drums, screw with cyberware, etc. Or the team would lay down suppressive fire while I dropped into VR and did the hacking thing to tip things our way. However, when we got caught unprepared, it worked like this:

Street Sam, goes first: "I use my first action to push the TM behind cover."
everyone else goes.
TM's goes last: "I hide."

Frankly, after the first few combats where we all got used to what a TM could - and couldn't - do, combats were a lot of fun for all of us (and I spent less time hiding).

Of course, with multi-combat turn combats, that's not as big a deal. You go into VR from your nice hidey-hole, hack, and so be it. Or you have your sprite-controlled drones attack with their 3 IPs.

Now, with a few levels of Acceleration, that's not an issue. 3 IPs in AR. TMs are definately a long-term investment kinda character...

[Tiger Eyes]

But honestly, I didn't even want to obsess over sprites/drones, but a plain technomancer simply can't keep up unless he dabbles with them. At least, that's my impression so far.

We've just now started using drones (surveillance drones only, still no weapon drones), and never had any problem with the TM contributing and pulling her weight. But when we created this team, we built the characters all together - so the others knew the TM would be weak in meat-combat (to start) and compensated for that. And we did *a lot* of combat. But if the combat is over in 3 seconds, then the 4 IP Combat Monsters are going to dominate the scene. If the combat lasts 4 turns, you'll be able to rock.

[Jaid]

4) you can't mix and match. a sprite should be able to control a drone any of the three separate ways a human can, provided the sprite has the appropriate abilities... this means that generally if you want to do anything other than just giving the drone orders and letting the dog brain act, you're probably gonna want to stick with machine sprites, which can get autosofts that give them appropriate skills for either remote control or rigging (though they don't get +2 hotsim bonus or control rig bonus).

in general, my advice is to use machines sprites remotely controlling the drones. they can then stay in your own node while controlling the drone.

as far as TMs being ineffective in the meatworld, well... as has been said, that's just how TMs are. the best advice i can give is to invest in a PMV of some kind (arsenal helps with that, of course), armor it up, and put a nice gun on it. just ride around in it, and you can stay in VR the whole time. (note: you don't need to directly control the PMV, but if you do, that can allow you to act as a somewhat limited street sam as well. there's all kinds of cheesy rigger-type things you can do to make a TM-rigger an extremely effective build, but i won't go into that unless you specifically want the TM-rigger build. for the record, you can't be a TM-rigger and a TM-hacker. it is very much either/or, at least at first (and probably continuing onwards).

as far as your lack of required CFs, my advice is to pick your top CFs that you expect to always need 100% of the time, and know those. the rest, thread as required, or use sprites (encrypt/decrypt for example are probably best left to a sprite. armor/shield, analyze, stealth, etc are good choices. attack/black hammer/blackout and command are also potentially good choices, because their rating does more than just add dice).

just my 0.002 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Caadium]

A couple of comments:

1. If you have access to Unwired take a look at the echoes in there. With the expenditure of somewhere near 30 karma you can have the equivalent of skillwires and 1 extra meat world Initiative Pass. Up that by about 15 more and you can have 2 extra real world IP. I believe that this is what Tiger Eyes is saying when he says to use AR. Technomancers are definitely characters you make for their long term potential as opposed to their ability to start out as a straight bad-ass.

2. You asked about Karma gen. The short answer is, yes they benefit from it. Most characters benefit from it (maybe all, I'm not totally sure). But technomancers especially get quite a bit out of it. Of course, this is using the numbers from SR4, not SR4A. I've yet to see how SR4A is adapting karma gen (if at all) given the changes in karma costs to attributes.

As I mentioned above, I highly recommend Unwired. I know there are a lot of people that will gripe about the book, and I'm not going to get into that, but I think that chapters that relate to technomancers (technomancer and free sprite specifically) really add a LOT to the characters. They still start out the same, struggling to survive and cover their basis, but the potential for a very interesting and useful character are there through development. Using these rules, I honestly see technomancers as something akin to a D&D mage (3rd or earlier, but especially 2nd and 1st editions); you start of feeling pretty gimpy, but your long term potential is something to behold.

[Aaron]

For #4, I'd think a sprite would control a drone via the Command program. They aren't Pilot programs in and of themselves (unless they have a power to that effect), so they can't act as the drone, although they could probably give the drone commands (though not as well as the TM could). Sprites don't have a motor cortex, so it would be pretty hard for them to jump into a drone (again, unless they have a power or something). So yeah, I'd call it remote control.

[Caadium]

For #4, I'd think a sprite would control a drone via the Command program. They aren't Pilot programs in and of themselves (unless they have a power to that effect), so they can't act as the drone, although they could probably give the drone commands (though not as well as the TM could). Sprites don't have a motor cortex, so it would be pretty hard for them to jump into a drone (again, unless they have a power or something). So yeah, I'd call it remote control.

I'd think that a Tutor sprite with the appropriate pilot skill would be able to jump into a drone. By their nature of having that skill it is sort of the power that you are referring to as I read it.

[Tycho]

I don't think Threading is a valid specialisation for Software, because a hacker can't also take "programs" as spec for software and more important, a technomancer can only thread with software so it is a specialisation for 100% of the skills tests which is explicit forbidden by the game rules.

I would not allow Threading as specailisation, instead you have to specialize on a subset like "security CFs" just like a hacker.

cya
Tycho

[Ryu]

4. How does a sprite (most likely a machine sprite) actually control a drone? Does it "issue commands", "remote control", "jump in", or something different? Do you use the sprite's Pilot rating or the drone's? What rolls are used to make the sprite-controlled drone, say, shoot a gun? If the drone has an autosoft (like Defense 3) that the sprite lacks, can the sprite make use of it?

A sprite can use the Command mechanic, or support a drones autopilot via it´s powers and "enhanced decision-making capabilities". (It could also jump in (not entirely sure), but it is hard to mechanically benefit from that.)

Command: As per dp table. You use the sprites ratings.

Support: You give any orders to the sprite, the sprite micro-manages the drone pilot. Diagnostics is nice. Matrix defense of that drone is taken care of. If you want it simple, you let the drone act at the pilots initiative, and with the pilots ratings enhanced by the sprite.

[Aaron]

I dunno about the jumping in thing. People can't do it without simsense. AIs can't do it without a special quality. I mean, aren't rigger adapters designed for someone with a motor cortex (part of the organic brain)? Sprites don't exactly need a motor cortex to move their bodies, what with them not actually having bodies.

[Malachi]

For #4, I'd think a sprite would control a drone via the Command program. They aren't Pilot programs in and of themselves (unless they have a power to that effect), so they can't act as the drone, although they could probably give the drone commands (though not as well as the TM could). Sprites don't have a motor cortex, so it would be pretty hard for them to jump into a drone (again, unless they have a power or something). So yeah, I'd call it remote control.

I agree on the "jumping in" motor cortex thing, Aaron, but I do think that a Sprite can act "as" as drone. The Machine Sprite can have any Autosoft as a CF when you Compile it (optional power), and it also has Command as a CF. So, I see that and kind of "reverse logic" the fact that the only reason a Machine Sprite would have an Autosoft is if it could make rolls on behalf of a Drone as though it were the Pilot program. It can also use the Command CF to Remotely Control drones just as a Rigger does with a Command program, but the fact that it can have an Autosoft implies to me that it can act in place of the Pilot program.

To be my own devil's advocate, though... I suppose the reason a Machine Sprite can have an Autosoft is to allow a drone's Pilot program to use it if it doesn't already have that autosoft. OTOH, the autosoft is a CF and "normal" Matrix icons can't use CF's like a program, only "Resonance entities" can use CF's. Hmmmm....

[Ryu]

My reasoning was that sprites should have an easier time to adapt to a new body (what with simply loading new drivers). Ruleswise at least the old rules speak of riggers jumping in, so no luck for sprites (what´s it in SR4A?).

I would not give the pilot access to the sprites CFs, but permit the sprite to use Command+Autosoft for tests. Autosofts seem like skillsofts for machines.

[cryptoknight]

=\

That's a real disappointing answer... Technomancers *can't* get cyber/bioware boosts, unless they want to take a penalty to Resonance. And if technos don't make good combat hackers... why is everyone so scared of technomancers again?

Mages/Adepts tend to have the same problem... Yet most adept builds have Synaptic Accel (sometimes alpha) in them for the initiative. Paying the Magic point cost and living with it. Why don't Technomancers? Yah you lose one resonance but when you initia... err submerge, you're max submergence is your resonance rating, which means you scale up just like adepts and mages do.

[Warlordtheft]

The way I've been running it has been treating the machine sprites as jumping in rather than remote control. So all the piloting and gunner checks are based on the sprites.

[Caadium]

Mages/Adepts tend to have the same problem... Yet most adept builds have Synaptic Accel (sometimes alpha) in them for the initiative. Paying the Magic point cost and living with it. Why don't Technomancers? Yah you lose one resonance but when you initia... err submerge, you're max submergence is your resonance rating, which means you scale up just like adepts and mages do.

While there is some truth to this, don't overlook the high cost of that synaptic Accelerator. Considering how BP strapped a technomancer already, the bp to pay for that bio isn't as easy to come by.

[Ryu]

That's a real disappointing answer... Technomancers *can't* get cyber/bioware boosts, unless they want to take a penalty to Resonance. And if technos don't make good combat hackers... why is everyone so scared of technomancers again?

You can correct your specific weakness with Acceleration (echo from Unwired).

As for the scare, that would come from CFs amped to 12+ ratings for short amounts of time.

[tricwebs]

A quick question about Echoes and The Living Persona.
The living persona is limited by the Resonance rating of the technomancer. So, if a technomancer has a Resonance of 5 and an Intuition of 5, is his Response limited to 5 in VR, in effect losing the +1 bonus for VR? Along the same line, would taking the Overclocking echo (+1 to Response) be pointless until the technomancer raises his Resonance?

[Dashifen]

The way I've been running it has been treating the machine sprites as jumping in rather than remote control. So all the piloting and gunner checks are based on the sprites.

That's the way I've run it, too.