(Caveat: this is all IMO)

My biggest problem with SR4 has been the fact that starting characters are too powerful. Especially now, after the supplemental books are out (Runner's Companion being the biggest difference) there are enough qualities etc that a starting character can get pretty much whatever they want from the book, and be the BEST IN THE WORLD in their chosen specialty. This puts far too much emphasis on the character creation process and leads to a devaluing of actual "experienced" characters, that have completed actual game-session runs and earned karma. It can be deflating to have run a character through dozens of game sessions, only to be eclipsed by someone who could balance/twink/munch their starting BP better than you could. One of my favourite additions in SR4 was the Street Cred stat. Finally as a GM had a a Quantified Stat to point to and say, "No, your still a noob runner." Why do I need a stat? I wish I didn't have to, but those kind of players don't really respond to anything but stats on the sheet, so now I have a stat.

No, I don't like the kind of severe restrictions placed on started characters that D&D has, but I don't really like the total wide openness of SR. Star Wars D6 had started characters balanced just about perfect for my tastes. You were strong enough that you felt like you could do something, but you still had tons of room to grow, and you advanced at a pretty decent pace. When I game RPG's, I'm most interested in telling a story and seeing the characters grow through the telling of that story. Can anyone deny that gear acquired through in game events is more memorable/special than a starting character's backstory?

I think the Technomancer is the only SR character "type" that is balanced well off of character creation. When you're done with a TM from chargen you say, "wow, I have a long way to go" instead of "wow, look at how pure awesome-sauce my character is!" Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

Technically, being a Drone-Rigger would be aving your cake AND eating it too O.o
all the feelings of flying jets through streets without any of the danger to your body o.O

Except for that nasty dumpshock if you crash or get blown out of the sky. Stun if you're in Cold Sim, Physical for Hot Sim. Not as bad as being there yourself, but still not enjoyable.

-paws

Yeah, but eh, no fun without at least a little bit of risk ^^

grr... lost my earlier post.

well, to sum up, there's a few regular options that fall in under the chargen limit leaving you with some cash (most are 1-2 seaters, probable exception of the cessna plane in main rulebook).

there's also crazy ideas like applying the lighter-than air mod to various vehicles. you may not have had blimps in mind when you were talking about aircraft, but they are still aircraft (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

best options i could find are the bulldog step-van (lots of cargo space), GMC everglades (more maneuverable, cheaper, faster, and either a little less space or just not quite as tough, can also land/operate on water), the tata hotspur (should probably lose an extra +1 maneuver since it has those smart wheels. expensive, and fast, but not that impressive otherwise) and the shin-hyung (coming in at 21,000 with mod installed, very cheap, reasonable stats). there is also a more expensive hovercraft in arsenal, but it's probably smaller than the everglades. it is more maneuverable though.

just for your reference, as a flying vehicle, the everglades would have handling -1, accel 5/10, speed 60, bod 14/arm 6, cost 25,500 + 5,600 = 31,100, and have 13 slots remaining.

the shin-hyung would have handling 0, accel 10/22.5 speed 80 bod 10/arm 5, cost 21,000 and have 13 slots remaining also.

leaving 1 slot for armor, 2 for engine customisation (your choice of accel/max), probably 1 for nitrous injection, 1 for rigger adaptation, and the rest for stuff like signature masking, weapon mounts, etc. (also, if you have a really good con(fasttalk) skill, you may wish to try to convince your GM that your aircraft is eligible for unstable structural agility for the handling bonus. good luck)

so depending on how flexible your definition of 'flying vehicle' is, you can certainly have one at chargen and not break the bank...

Better a day at a hospital than a day at a funeral.

In earlier additions,I just went for the cheap helicopter and stole a better vehicle on the first couple of runs. Now our riggers usually skip most vehicle purchases alltogether and survive off drones until they find something suitable to steal.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. Especially the notes on used/stolen merch being discounted. That'll help.

There are a couple of reasons that I wanted an actual aircraft. The first one is so I can use it as a transport. With the prevalence of OMGTALL buildings in Shadowrun, I thought that giving the team the ability to get in from the roof or a balcony halfway up would be a significant advantage. At the very least, you bypass the cameras and other sensors on the ground floor entrances. Aerial team retrieval is also a bonus. So, for a pilot not being useful, I'd say they're easily as useful as a wheelman; way better if a non-standard entry/escape would help the run.

With this objective in mind, you can see why drones just wouldn't work. (and neither would the Wasp, as it's a 1-seater). On the other hand... Jaid, I really dig your "converta-blimp" idea. It might be just what I was looking for to solve THIS objective. The only solution I had been able to come up with was rigging a whole teams worth of Lockheed Sparrow jetpacks at once. (Obviously, one of these would need Big. Ass. Speakers. blaring out "Ride of the Valkyries")

The other objectiveis because flying planes, helicopters, and T-Birds and shit is, as Paws would say, Awesome!^TM Even though VR is the way of badassery, if all you can get is flying drones in VR, you ain't really flying, know-what-i'm-sayin? Feet planted while the brain runs free is something any lame script-kiddie can do. Don't get me wrong, drone rigging is sweet and I'd gladly add it to my repertoire. I just wouldn't sacrifice my ability to fly for it.

As for why I'd want to own me very own, and why at character creation? If I'm not running, our games don't generally go past 20-50 karma, and I'd like to be able to actually DO the thing I made my whole character concept. Also, "acquiring" an aircraft is all well and good, but it's not like I'm going to be able to just walk up and steal one, reliably, whenever I need to perform my primary function. I mean, yeah, keep tabs on where to go, and where I can score a heli on short notice, sure. But to COUNT on that working... especially longer-term, or more than once? That's asking for GM smackdown.

I can see how you'd think traffic laws would be a bear to deal with. The thing is, with all the air traffic in town, you'd be easy to overlook, especially after you take the same kinds of precautions smart riggers do before spoofing GridGuide. Also, have you considered that pretty much the same laws apply to flying drones as to aircraft?

The big reason it bugs me that the pilot isn't terribly viable at chargen is that it used to be. I was making a pilot rigger for SR2/SR3 (he was a backup, and we switched systems in the middle of the campaign), before deciding that a Riding Bean style guy would be better with the group. I went back to the concept in SR4... and this cool, useful, not overpowering (your bitches about the concept are kinda legit...) build is almost completely impossible to make happen.

I switched over to SR4 because I thought it was cool (and I was running, so my way rules... ha!) and I have enough players bitching about the new ruleset that going back to SR2 or SR3 so I can play my pilot feels like both giving in to (irrational, even they admit) player complaints and abandoning a good thing because of one part I don't like. Bah.

Wow, long post. "We now return you to your regulary-scheduled ranting, already in progress."

Yeah, if you were in my game and your concept was firmly grounded (ha) in "aerial wheelman," I'd just give you the helicopter. I might do some of the fun backgroundy stuff for story fodder (used, stolen, whatever), but that would run a close second to you actually, I dunno, getting to play your character.

Exactly... took me almost 100 Karma to earm our teams plane...

Totally agree.

As a Response to Malachis rant. It is my belief of two other concepts;

1: it's the GM's responsibility to challenge the character. if they're throwing a bucket of dice at a certain test, change the stakes. knock 'em down with modifers, (poor equipment, under stress, took stun damage), use numbers and the environment to make 'em not-so-shit-hot. it makes it more awesome that way.

2: if you're that specialized, and cannot do any other tasks, for example a pilot that can't be a regular wheelman, do some legworth/recon, and run-and-gun well enough to keep up in an urban firefight, that's a pretty terrible build in my opinion. that's the dark side of min/maxing.

and having to "earn" your wings is much better anyhow. player-instigated runs are far more fun that just stooging for the Man.

Just a note KZT... that yacht actually costs 170,000 Nuyen... they missed a zero in the table...

So they say... The Nightsky and the Sea Nymph vs ammo is the best examples of how the Devs have no idea what is a reasonable cost for anything in the game.

An option that has been missed, for very few starting BP. Stat up a contact who owns an aerial taxi business with ties to the shadows. Hell, give yourself a Day Job negative quality and work for him as well, it probably can be BP neutral or close to it. Anytime you need an aerial ride, hire one off him.... just don't break it. (In this day and age I'm sure his corporate taxi has a SOTA ECM system and extensive defensive mods).

Imp

Well used,stolen counterfeit Hughes Stallion only cos 90000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and if you willing to get one that was used in a crime it's only 67500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

If you want to use aircraft, you are playing a high-powered game. The GM should set starting BPs to 500 to account for that.

In addition / alternatively, see if you can get your fellow players to chip in. If everyone contributes X BP of their resources to a group vehicle, then you won't be unfairly burdened with the huge cost. This would even work in a 400 BP game.

Of course this requires the GM's OK. I think you and the GM need to work closely, or your idea just might fall flat.

Veggiesama, if the nuyen limits are extended to allow for a 500BP character (they appear to be BP/8) I'd have an extra 60-65k to spend. Rounding up, with Born Rich AND In Debt, the total resources available comes to 395k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . This might actually work, but it's still not going to buy much capability relative to the rest of the team.

I agree that sharing resources is probably the way to get this concept off the ground. So, how would you guys go about building a 2-man rigger team? The idea lets one rigger fly and shoot while the other hacks opposing networks and provides overwatch. With 500k base they'd have enough cred to actually get a decent chopper or go out on a limb for a "discount" LAV.

Hm, now to pitch this to one of the other runners... maybe as a backup character for some missions.

Of course, if anyone still wants to fight through the pain to produce a decent solo pilot rigger, I'd be really impressed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i'd try for a BIG cargo chopper or LAV with much storage capacity.
One rigger does the main flying, maybe some electronic warfare.
the other is the Mechanic/Gunner and steers drones which can be transported and launched in mid flight from the LAV.

Try asking your DM to base the campaign around your "mobile fortress." Maybe you can talk him into giving the group a free vehicle (possibly provided by a corporation or crime syndicate). Any upgrades would have to come out of your pocket, though. The vehicle has such a huge cost that it really cuts into the funds you can spend on your character, so IMHO that burden should be shared by the group or simply hand-waved by GM intervention.

If you are running a T-bird campaign, most likely the Gm will give the players a T-bird to play with.

I think it is reasonable that there are some things that cannot be bought at character generation. I think it is also reasonable that those things can be rented/bought/stolen if the need arises. Our group has a pilot in it, and he is flying us to Seoul in a rented Gulfair. It's a reward, and that is how it should be.

-Chrysalis

you have a weird idea of a reward chrys O.o

Funny, some of this discussion reminds me a lot of Traveller. You could earn credits towards different classes of Starship during Chargen and pool them all together as a team to make a roll on one of several tables to generate a group ship. The better the roll and the higher the bonus the more likely you were to own a decent, well maintained ship. Lower rolls left you in debt, gave you a crappier ship or one that was falling to bits.

A combination of sharing resources and allowing the second hand/damaged/hot options from Arsenal seems like the best way of running a t/bird or Airwolf kinda game.

I love the LTA mod personally. I was thinking reading this that it would be great for doing HALO jumps to land on a target buildings H-pad and then using 'squirrel suits' to get out again. Shame there are no SR stat's for 'squirrel suits' but you could just 'wing' it...

HMM . .LTA an LAV? O.o
Fastest Zeppelin in the World? ^^

What do you mean?