Okay, as I posted here, I realized that I had had a real rant about this topic brewing in my brain for quite a while.

For those who want the short version: I like pilots. I want to play one in Shadowrun, but... Making a starting¹ vehicle rigger that does planes/helicopters/t-birds seems to cripple the power of the character when it isn't entirely impossible. The aircraft are just too damned expensive².

So, being a faithful lurker here, and knowing the vast powers of twinkery and powergaming-fu that exist on dumpshock, I challenge you to make a build for a "pilot-type" starting rigger that wouldn't completely suck. I'd also accept a rigger with a way to GET TO a basic piloting build within 10-30 karma if you'd need to save up for your aircraft rather than buying one at campaign start. (If you go this route, how much /karma are you anticipating?)

Unfortunately, after looking through all the books, I just don't see it happening.

I'd love to be wrong on this one, though³.


¹Part of the reason is in the other post, but if you want, I'll gladly go on about why I want to be able to pilot at character creation or soon after.
²If I recall correctly, in SR2/SR3, a basic Hughes Stallion cost about 50% of the maximum you could get at character creation. In SR4/SR4A, the same helicopter costs upwards of 90% of your max⁴ (225k).
³Now I'm just having fun with endnotes.
⁴Unless you take Born Rich and/or In Debt, and that still doesn't leave much for other rigger gear.

I'm too tempted to make a Neuromancer reference. Yes, planes are expensive. However, how many riggers actually own planes? Most of the time the Johnson can supply one, or you can steal one. What matters is if you can fly the damn thing. Owning one comes later.

I have two Chars (Thunder & Lightning, a Norm and a Ork (Think Bud Spencer & Terence Hill )
that shared their Resources Pool to buy the Fiat Fokker Cloud 9
Both are Riggers, one being more Pilot,the other more Mechanic/Gunner
ask your GM and a Fellow Player to share the Resources

with a shared Dance
Medicineman

also don't forget that piloting aircraft also counts for airborne drones, as far as i know O.o
so even if you can not SIT in the plane, you can have your MIND in there. . and steer drones untill you can get your grubby paws on a real aeroplane.

Perhaps this was covered in the previous thread, but I'm wondering how actually owning your own full-size aircraft/vtol would be a benefit to the average team of urban shadowrunners. There are definitely campaign styles that it would work for (or even be essential), like a smuggling or wilderness setting. If that were the case, then I can't imagine why the PCs wouldn't pool resources to purchase a vehicle.

If you're playing in the bog standard SR urban setting, I'd see actually owning an aircraft as more of a liability than an asset. Owning an aircraft means you have to have someplace to keep it, you need to either have it registered and follow the "laws of the airspace" or risk flying it without authorization every single time you take it out. Even if it is registered and legit, how many times do you think you're going to use it for runs before ATC figures out something weird is going on? As was said by an earlier poster, much better to make it known that your team specializes in missions that involve aircraft and let the Johnsons provide one-use expendable aircraft. Owning your own seems like a quick way to lose most of your starting resources. Also, for a person that gets off on the thrill of piloting aircraft, I'd imagine that full-VR piloting of airborne drones through the close confines of urban settings would be just as much, or more, of a thrill than piloting a helicopter from point A to point B.

I hope this didn't sound dismissive. I think a piloting character would be really cool, I just don't think you need to own your own aircraft to make it cool. Besides, think of all the extra Build Points you'll have for the l33t skills and for Contacts that *can* get their hands on deniable aircraft assets for special circumstances.

If having an aircraft of some expensive anything is essential to the campaign, then, in my opinion, the GM should use his vast powers of handwavium and give the PCs the needed item(s). After that, its up to the players to keep it in good shape. If they lose the vehicle through neglect or combat, then they're out of luck.

Off-The-Cuff House Rule:

Alternatively, you could hack the rules a bit.

Perhaps the character needs to making lease payments (either to a legit retailer, fixer, or syndicate boss) on an expensive vehicle? Using the rules for buying permanent lifestyles as a guideline, you simply divide the cost of the vehicle by 100 to get the monthly lease payments.

Using this method, a MiG-67 LAV (panzer) would run you 9500 nuyen a month. Or you could opt for the cheaper, less combat worthy, Cascade Skraacha for a measly 4750 a month.

Of course, if the vehicle gets destroyed or otherwise goes missing, you're now in debt for the remaining amount to the leaser.

-paws

One of these days I'm going to get around to running my post-Crash 2.0 era smuggling game.

EDIT: I know this doesn't really answer the OP's challenge, but its an option if the GM really wants the runners to have an expensive vehicle.

If you absolutly must have an aircraft then discuss getting a used one with your gm. I don't have my books, but I recall Arsenal offered upto a 50% discount for used and damaged (and possibly hot) vehicles.

You can always buy a plane later. Renting or even a down payment are possible. Isn't there also a quality to get an item for free?

Yes yes, just don't ask about the Russian and Cascade Ork Collection Agents.

Hey, something in Shadowrun that you have to earn rather than just twinking a character build... wow!

Ouch. And here I was worried that my response would come off as harsh.

Ah ha!

You just reminded me of this chart from the core book:

street costs situation cost adjustment
Item counterfeit -20%
Item stolen -20%
Item used -20%
Item used in a crime under investigation -10%
Price war between rival dealers -10%
Market flooded -10%
Distribution channels monopolized +20%
Law enforcement crackdown on item +50%
Market dry +20%

So, a used, stolen Skraacha, used in a crime (smuggling, duh) would have a -50% cost modifier. That brings the cost down to 237500 nuyen, which is within the reach of a starting character (especially if you include Born Rich and/or In Debt)

Don't mind all the attached strings.

-paws

Or you can get the Chinese Knock-Off of the Cascade Skraacha and just have it "Gently Used".

Bwahahahahahaha!

That struck my as very, very funny.

At least in shadowrun, you can get a linguisoft to help you translate.
What would be better though is if the manual was translated from Chinese to (butchered) English.

Rigger: It says to put the wax asparagus on the radiator.
Sami: Don't do that or I will shoot you.

-paws

Northup Yellowjacket PRC-44T = 122,000 and is Avail = 12F

Max out on Money and you should even be able to buy a drone or 2.

This is only standard one you can get in game start without using the Used Vehicle rule.

Or Page 104 Arsenal



You'll need to buy the Positive quality Restricted Gear Cost: 5 BP (max Avail 20 and get a damaged one for 50% cost that you have to repair in Game. Cost some cred after to fix it up during game.

Renault-Fiat Fokker Tundra-9 (Amphibious Jet) = 325,000*.5 = 162,500 and Avail 18.

or

Hughes Stallion (Utility Helicopter) = 225,000*.5 = 112,500 and Avail 16

or

Fed Boeing Commuter (Tilt-Wing Airplane) = 320,000*.5 = 160,000 and Avail 16R

All these are within the limits of the rules and the GM gets to give your cool toy problems in the beginning which you can get fixed during game or just keep it as a fun quirk for the character.

Or full of advertisements for other knock-off products.

Rigger: "This airframe brought to you by 'Bite the Wax Tadpole'? Jeeze this Asians are weird."
Sami: "OK, that's it, chose a knee you won't be needing, the last straw was insulting my culture!"
Rigger: "But you said you weren't Chinese or Japanese, you were Lice or something..."
Sami: "Laotian! And we're still an Asian people!"
Rigger: "But... You're not Chinese or Japanese..."

Why is it listed if I can't have it at chargen!!!!!!!

I mean, I could look young and live forever (Insert desired Results) if I could get all those age rejuvenation treatments (Insert desirable expensive item of choice) off the bat!

No really, I'm serious, I'm not whining!

A drone aircraft rigger though has definite possibilities. Though I would shoot for an above grade Electronic Warfare suite, and make sure that all your drones have the right autosofts and decent firewalls.

You can later, should the campaign warrant it, buy or steal or otherwise aquire a full blown aircraft. Though I would stick to the civillian craft, milspec and sec vehicles that are unauthorized will draw attention in most locales.

Helicopters are a huge pain to own and maintain. You need an actual hanger for them, because every x hundreds of hours you have to cover the entire hanger floor with helicopter parts when you disassemble the entire helicopter for inspection and service. So I hope you have lots of Aeronautics Mechanic skill too. And the ability to take a month off every x hundreds of hours to take apart and inspect the bird.

I think they are actually far too cheap in SR. Mostly because I have some idea what a real helicopter costs. The SR price is as absurd as the 17,000 price of the "opulent luxury yacht for
those who like to sail in style."

If you want to own the helo it makes sense that that is what your team does. You are the guys who get called when someone needs a helicopter to deliver someone or pull someone out. Which also means you get paid an absurd amount of cash per mission, but you need to be putting a lot aside to replace the helo that gets shot down.

This means the GM gives you the gear up front, with strings....

Agreed.



Agreed.



Agreed.



Agreed.



Agreed, lol'd, agreed, made of win.

Man, you guys managed to say everything I was thinking. Now what am I supposed to do?

Thank you, King of the Hill.

tell us to play nice, no racism, no politics, no religions, no group attacks . .
only things admins are needed for *runs for cover* ^^

But...but, we're people too!

BANHAMMER!

Nah, I figured out what to do.

I went and made coffee and got a cup.

Lots of good suggestions here about how to get an aircraft without breaking the bank. In the past, we've often gone the "GM says you can have it cause it fits your character and the game" route, but the possibilities you get when you start applying things like "stolen, used, etc." are pretty cool. I can just imagine a team coming out onto the roof of a building to get on their transport and finding the rigger propped up against a vent unconscious with a note taped to his goggles that says "We found it, thanks."

I think I'm going to have to back the "Get light drones to start, have a secondary focus on infiltration (or Con or whatever your preferance is for "steal freaking huge aircraft") and Grand Theft OMG! what you need or want during play." It has the hilarious bonus that you really don't have to care what happens to the $$$$ piece of legality=NO hardware.

Does this tick off the huge and powerful "The Man", heck yes. But when you took up this job did you plan to live forever or live awesome?

For referance I'm visualising a "Special Ops wash-out/ drop-out" build character with a good chunk of points dusted in and around some piloting skills. Can't fix the things though. I think I'm going to build her later and use it in the next run I'm tossing at my group... there will be parachutes and a total disregard for crashing a now abandoned helicopter into the ocean... ya!

I'm sorry, but there's seems to be a grammatical error here. How could there be an option other than Awesome?

-paws

(Caveat: this is all IMO)

My biggest problem with SR4 has been the fact that starting characters are too powerful. Especially now, after the supplemental books are out (Runner's Companion being the biggest difference) there are enough qualities etc that a starting character can get pretty much whatever they want from the book, and be the BEST IN THE WORLD in their chosen specialty. This puts far too much emphasis on the character creation process and leads to a devaluing of actual "experienced" characters, that have completed actual game-session runs and earned karma. It can be deflating to have run a character through dozens of game sessions, only to be eclipsed by someone who could balance/twink/munch their starting BP better than you could. One of my favourite additions in SR4 was the Street Cred stat. Finally as a GM had a a Quantified Stat to point to and say, "No, your still a noob runner." Why do I need a stat? I wish I didn't have to, but those kind of players don't really respond to anything but stats on the sheet, so now I have a stat.

No, I don't like the kind of severe restrictions placed on started characters that D&D has, but I don't really like the total wide openness of SR. Star Wars D6 had started characters balanced just about perfect for my tastes. You were strong enough that you felt like you could do something, but you still had tons of room to grow, and you advanced at a pretty decent pace. When I game RPG's, I'm most interested in telling a story and seeing the characters grow through the telling of that story. Can anyone deny that gear acquired through in game events is more memorable/special than a starting character's backstory?

I think the Technomancer is the only SR character "type" that is balanced well off of character creation. When you're done with a TM from chargen you say, "wow, I have a long way to go" instead of "wow, look at how pure awesome-sauce my character is!" Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

Technically, being a Drone-Rigger would be aving your cake AND eating it too O.o
all the feelings of flying jets through streets without any of the danger to your body o.O

Except for that nasty dumpshock if you crash or get blown out of the sky. Stun if you're in Cold Sim, Physical for Hot Sim. Not as bad as being there yourself, but still not enjoyable.

-paws

Yeah, but eh, no fun without at least a little bit of risk ^^

grr... lost my earlier post.

well, to sum up, there's a few regular options that fall in under the chargen limit leaving you with some cash (most are 1-2 seaters, probable exception of the cessna plane in main rulebook).

there's also crazy ideas like applying the lighter-than air mod to various vehicles. you may not have had blimps in mind when you were talking about aircraft, but they are still aircraft

best options i could find are the bulldog step-van (lots of cargo space), GMC everglades (more maneuverable, cheaper, faster, and either a little less space or just not quite as tough, can also land/operate on water), the tata hotspur (should probably lose an extra +1 maneuver since it has those smart wheels. expensive, and fast, but not that impressive otherwise) and the shin-hyung (coming in at 21,000 with mod installed, very cheap, reasonable stats). there is also a more expensive hovercraft in arsenal, but it's probably smaller than the everglades. it is more maneuverable though.

just for your reference, as a flying vehicle, the everglades would have handling -1, accel 5/10, speed 60, bod 14/arm 6, cost 25,500 + 5,600 = 31,100, and have 13 slots remaining.

the shin-hyung would have handling 0, accel 10/22.5 speed 80 bod 10/arm 5, cost 21,000 and have 13 slots remaining also.

leaving 1 slot for armor, 2 for engine customisation (your choice of accel/max), probably 1 for nitrous injection, 1 for rigger adaptation, and the rest for stuff like signature masking, weapon mounts, etc. (also, if you have a really good con(fasttalk) skill, you may wish to try to convince your GM that your aircraft is eligible for unstable structural agility for the handling bonus. good luck)

so depending on how flexible your definition of 'flying vehicle' is, you can certainly have one at chargen and not break the bank...

Better a day at a hospital than a day at a funeral.

In earlier additions,I just went for the cheap helicopter and stole a better vehicle on the first couple of runs. Now our riggers usually skip most vehicle purchases alltogether and survive off drones until they find something suitable to steal.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. Especially the notes on used/stolen merch being discounted. That'll help.

There are a couple of reasons that I wanted an actual aircraft. The first one is so I can use it as a transport. With the prevalence of OMGTALL buildings in Shadowrun, I thought that giving the team the ability to get in from the roof or a balcony halfway up would be a significant advantage. At the very least, you bypass the cameras and other sensors on the ground floor entrances. Aerial team retrieval is also a bonus. So, for a pilot not being useful, I'd say they're easily as useful as a wheelman; way better if a non-standard entry/escape would help the run.

With this objective in mind, you can see why drones just wouldn't work. (and neither would the Wasp, as it's a 1-seater). On the other hand... Jaid, I really dig your "converta-blimp" idea. It might be just what I was looking for to solve THIS objective. The only solution I had been able to come up with was rigging a whole teams worth of Lockheed Sparrow jetpacks at once. (Obviously, one of these would need Big. Ass. Speakers. blaring out "Ride of the Valkyries")

The other objectiveis because flying planes, helicopters, and T-Birds and shit is, as Paws would say, Awesome!^TM Even though VR is the way of badassery, if all you can get is flying drones in VR, you ain't really flying, know-what-i'm-sayin? Feet planted while the brain runs free is something any lame script-kiddie can do. Don't get me wrong, drone rigging is sweet and I'd gladly add it to my repertoire. I just wouldn't sacrifice my ability to fly for it.

As for why I'd want to own me very own, and why at character creation? If I'm not running, our games don't generally go past 20-50 karma, and I'd like to be able to actually DO the thing I made my whole character concept. Also, "acquiring" an aircraft is all well and good, but it's not like I'm going to be able to just walk up and steal one, reliably, whenever I need to perform my primary function. I mean, yeah, keep tabs on where to go, and where I can score a heli on short notice, sure. But to COUNT on that working... especially longer-term, or more than once? That's asking for GM smackdown.

I can see how you'd think traffic laws would be a bear to deal with. The thing is, with all the air traffic in town, you'd be easy to overlook, especially after you take the same kinds of precautions smart riggers do before spoofing GridGuide. Also, have you considered that pretty much the same laws apply to flying drones as to aircraft?

The big reason it bugs me that the pilot isn't terribly viable at chargen is that it used to be. I was making a pilot rigger for SR2/SR3 (he was a backup, and we switched systems in the middle of the campaign), before deciding that a Riding Bean style guy would be better with the group. I went back to the concept in SR4... and this cool, useful, not overpowering (your bitches about the concept are kinda legit...) build is almost completely impossible to make happen.

I switched over to SR4 because I thought it was cool (and I was running, so my way rules... ha!) and I have enough players bitching about the new ruleset that going back to SR2 or SR3 so I can play my pilot feels like both giving in to (irrational, even they admit) player complaints and abandoning a good thing because of one part I don't like. Bah.

Wow, long post. "We now return you to your regulary-scheduled ranting, already in progress."

Yeah, if you were in my game and your concept was firmly grounded (ha) in "aerial wheelman," I'd just give you the helicopter. I might do some of the fun backgroundy stuff for story fodder (used, stolen, whatever), but that would run a close second to you actually, I dunno, getting to play your character.

Exactly... took me almost 100 Karma to earm our teams plane...

Totally agree.

As a Response to Malachis rant. It is my belief of two other concepts;

1: it's the GM's responsibility to challenge the character. if they're throwing a bucket of dice at a certain test, change the stakes. knock 'em down with modifers, (poor equipment, under stress, took stun damage), use numbers and the environment to make 'em not-so-shit-hot. it makes it more awesome that way.

2: if you're that specialized, and cannot do any other tasks, for example a pilot that can't be a regular wheelman, do some legworth/recon, and run-and-gun well enough to keep up in an urban firefight, that's a pretty terrible build in my opinion. that's the dark side of min/maxing.

and having to "earn" your wings is much better anyhow. player-instigated runs are far more fun that just stooging for the Man.

Just a note KZT... that yacht actually costs 170,000 Nuyen... they missed a zero in the table...

So they say... The Nightsky and the Sea Nymph vs ammo is the best examples of how the Devs have no idea what is a reasonable cost for anything in the game.

An option that has been missed, for very few starting BP. Stat up a contact who owns an aerial taxi business with ties to the shadows. Hell, give yourself a Day Job negative quality and work for him as well, it probably can be BP neutral or close to it. Anytime you need an aerial ride, hire one off him.... just don't break it. (In this day and age I'm sure his corporate taxi has a SOTA ECM system and extensive defensive mods).

Imp

Well used,stolen counterfeit Hughes Stallion only cos 90000 and if you willing to get one that was used in a crime it's only 67500

If you want to use aircraft, you are playing a high-powered game. The GM should set starting BPs to 500 to account for that.

In addition / alternatively, see if you can get your fellow players to chip in. If everyone contributes X BP of their resources to a group vehicle, then you won't be unfairly burdened with the huge cost. This would even work in a 400 BP game.

Of course this requires the GM's OK. I think you and the GM need to work closely, or your idea just might fall flat.

Veggiesama, if the nuyen limits are extended to allow for a 500BP character (they appear to be BP/8) I'd have an extra 60-65k to spend. Rounding up, with Born Rich AND In Debt, the total resources available comes to 395k . This might actually work, but it's still not going to buy much capability relative to the rest of the team.

I agree that sharing resources is probably the way to get this concept off the ground. So, how would you guys go about building a 2-man rigger team? The idea lets one rigger fly and shoot while the other hacks opposing networks and provides overwatch. With 500k base they'd have enough cred to actually get a decent chopper or go out on a limb for a "discount" LAV.

Hm, now to pitch this to one of the other runners... maybe as a backup character for some missions.

Of course, if anyone still wants to fight through the pain to produce a decent solo pilot rigger, I'd be really impressed.

i'd try for a BIG cargo chopper or LAV with much storage capacity.
One rigger does the main flying, maybe some electronic warfare.
the other is the Mechanic/Gunner and steers drones which can be transported and launched in mid flight from the LAV.

Try asking your DM to base the campaign around your "mobile fortress." Maybe you can talk him into giving the group a free vehicle (possibly provided by a corporation or crime syndicate). Any upgrades would have to come out of your pocket, though. The vehicle has such a huge cost that it really cuts into the funds you can spend on your character, so IMHO that burden should be shared by the group or simply hand-waved by GM intervention.

If you are running a T-bird campaign, most likely the Gm will give the players a T-bird to play with.

I think it is reasonable that there are some things that cannot be bought at character generation. I think it is also reasonable that those things can be rented/bought/stolen if the need arises. Our group has a pilot in it, and he is flying us to Seoul in a rented Gulfair. It's a reward, and that is how it should be.

-Chrysalis

you have a weird idea of a reward chrys O.o

Funny, some of this discussion reminds me a lot of Traveller. You could earn credits towards different classes of Starship during Chargen and pool them all together as a team to make a roll on one of several tables to generate a group ship. The better the roll and the higher the bonus the more likely you were to own a decent, well maintained ship. Lower rolls left you in debt, gave you a crappier ship or one that was falling to bits.

A combination of sharing resources and allowing the second hand/damaged/hot options from Arsenal seems like the best way of running a t/bird or Airwolf kinda game.

I love the LTA mod personally. I was thinking reading this that it would be great for doing HALO jumps to land on a target buildings H-pad and then using 'squirrel suits' to get out again. Shame there are no SR stat's for 'squirrel suits' but you could just 'wing' it...

HMM . .LTA an LAV? O.o
Fastest Zeppelin in the World? ^^

What do you mean?