Aircraft riggers suck. PLEASE prove me wrong. Options

[Falanin]

Okay, as I posted here, I realized that I had had a real rant about this topic brewing in my brain for quite a while.

For those who want the short version: I like pilots. I want to play one in Shadowrun, but... Making a starting¹ vehicle rigger that does planes/helicopters/t-birds seems to cripple the power of the character when it isn't entirely impossible. The aircraft are just too damned expensive².

So, being a faithful lurker here, and knowing the vast powers of twinkery and powergaming-fu that exist on dumpshock, I challenge you to make a build for a "pilot-type" starting rigger that wouldn't completely suck. I'd also accept a rigger with a way to GET TO a basic piloting build within 10-30 karma if you'd need to save up for your aircraft rather than buying one at campaign start. (If you go this route, how much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /karma are you anticipating?)

Unfortunately, after looking through all the books, I just don't see it happening.

I'd love to be wrong on this one, though³.


¹Part of the reason is in the other post, but if you want, I'll gladly go on about why I want to be able to pilot at character creation or soon after.
²If I recall correctly, in SR2/SR3, a basic Hughes Stallion cost about 50% of the maximum (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you could get at character creation. In SR4/SR4A, the same helicopter costs upwards of 90% of your max⁴ (225k).
³Now I'm just having fun with endnotes.
⁴Unless you take Born Rich and/or In Debt, and that still doesn't leave much for other rigger gear.

[Ancient History]

I'm too tempted to make a Neuromancer reference. Yes, planes are expensive. However, how many riggers actually own planes? Most of the time the Johnson can supply one, or you can steal one. What matters is if you can fly the damn thing. Owning one comes later.

[Medicineman]

I have two Chars (Thunder & Lightning, a Norm and a Ork (Think Bud Spencer & Terence Hill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
that shared their Resources Pool to buy the Fiat Fokker Cloud 9
Both are Riggers, one being more Pilot,the other more Mechanic/Gunner
ask your GM and a Fellow Player to share the Resources

with a shared Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

also don't forget that piloting aircraft also counts for airborne drones, as far as i know O.o
so even if you can not SIT in the plane, you can have your MIND in there. . and steer drones untill you can get your grubby paws on a real aeroplane.

[Semerkhet]

Perhaps this was covered in the previous thread, but I'm wondering how actually owning your own full-size aircraft/vtol would be a benefit to the average team of urban shadowrunners. There are definitely campaign styles that it would work for (or even be essential), like a smuggling or wilderness setting. If that were the case, then I can't imagine why the PCs wouldn't pool resources to purchase a vehicle.

If you're playing in the bog standard SR urban setting, I'd see actually owning an aircraft as more of a liability than an asset. Owning an aircraft means you have to have someplace to keep it, you need to either have it registered and follow the "laws of the airspace" or risk flying it without authorization every single time you take it out. Even if it is registered and legit, how many times do you think you're going to use it for runs before ATC figures out something weird is going on? As was said by an earlier poster, much better to make it known that your team specializes in missions that involve aircraft and let the Johnsons provide one-use expendable aircraft. Owning your own seems like a quick way to lose most of your starting resources. Also, for a person that gets off on the thrill of piloting aircraft, I'd imagine that full-VR piloting of airborne drones through the close confines of urban settings would be just as much, or more, of a thrill than piloting a helicopter from point A to point B.

I hope this didn't sound dismissive. I think a piloting character would be really cool, I just don't think you need to own your own aircraft to make it cool. Besides, think of all the extra Build Points you'll have for the l33t skills and for Contacts that *can* get their hands on deniable aircraft assets for special circumstances.

[paws2sky]

If having an aircraft of some expensive anything is essential to the campaign, then, in my opinion, the GM should use his vast powers of handwavium and give the PCs the needed item(s). After that, its up to the players to keep it in good shape. If they lose the vehicle through neglect or combat, then they're out of luck.

Off-The-Cuff House Rule:

Alternatively, you could hack the rules a bit.

Perhaps the character needs to making lease payments (either to a legit retailer, fixer, or syndicate boss) on an expensive vehicle? Using the rules for buying permanent lifestyles as a guideline, you simply divide the cost of the vehicle by 100 to get the monthly lease payments.

Using this method, a MiG-67 LAV (panzer) would run you 9500 nuyen a month. Or you could opt for the cheaper, less combat worthy, Cascade Skraacha for a measly 4750 a month.

Of course, if the vehicle gets destroyed or otherwise goes missing, you're now in debt for the remaining amount to the leaser.

-paws

One of these days I'm going to get around to running my post-Crash 2.0 era smuggling game.

EDIT: I know this doesn't really answer the OP's challenge, but its an option if the GM really wants the runners to have an expensive vehicle.

[ornot]

If you absolutly must have an aircraft then discuss getting a used one with your gm. I don't have my books, but I recall Arsenal offered upto a 50% discount for used and damaged (and possibly hot) vehicles.

[Chrysalis]

You can always buy a plane later. Renting or even a down payment are possible. Isn't there also a quality to get an item for free?

[CanRay]

Off-The-Cuff House Rule:

Alternatively, you could hack the rules a bit.

Perhaps the character needs to making lease payments (either to a legit retailer, fixer, or syndicate boss) on an expensive vehicle? Using the rules for buying permanent lifestyles as a guideline, you simply divide the cost of the vehicle by 100 to get the monthly lease payments.

Using this method, a MiG-67 LAV (panzer) would run you 9500 nuyen a month. Or you could opt for the cheaper, less combat worthy, Cascade Skraacha for a measly 4750 a month.

-paws

Yes yes, just don't ask about the Russian and Cascade Ork Collection Agents. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Malachi]

Hey, something in Shadowrun that you have to earn rather than just twinking a character build... wow!

[Semerkhet]

Hey, something in Shadowrun that you have to earn rather than just twinking a character build... wow!

Ouch. And here I was worried that my response would come off as harsh.

[paws2sky]

If you absolutly must have an aircraft then discuss getting a used one with your gm. I don't have my books, but I recall Arsenal offered upto a 50% discount for used and damaged (and possibly hot) vehicles.

Ah ha!

You just reminded me of this chart from the core book:

street costs situation cost adjustment
Item counterfeit -20%
Item stolen -20%
Item used -20%
Item used in a crime under investigation -10%
Price war between rival dealers -10%
Market flooded -10%
Distribution channels monopolized +20%
Law enforcement crackdown on item +50%
Market dry +20%

So, a used, stolen Skraacha, used in a crime (smuggling, duh) would have a -50% cost modifier. That brings the cost down to 237500 nuyen, which is within the reach of a starting character (especially if you include Born Rich and/or In Debt)

Don't mind all the attached strings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-paws

[CanRay]

Or you can get the Chinese Knock-Off of the Cascade Skraacha and just have it "Gently Used". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Rigger: "OK, good news, bad news."
Sami: "Bad news."
Rigger: "The Help Files are in Chinese."
Sami: "Good news?"
Rigger: "The controls look identical to my MicroDeck GameStation, and I've racked up hundreds of flight hours on 'Combat Rigger 5000'!"
Sami: "I'm going to shoot him, I'm so going to shoot him!"

[paws2sky]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif) Bwahahahahahaha!

That struck my as very, very funny.

At least in shadowrun, you can get a linguisoft to help you translate.
What would be better though is if the manual was translated from Chinese to (butchered) English.

Rigger: It says to put the wax asparagus on the radiator.
Sami: Don't do that or I will shoot you.

-paws

[Night Jackal]

Northup Yellowjacket PRC-44T = 122,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and is Avail = 12F

Max out on Money and you should even be able to buy a drone or 2.

This is only standard one you can get in game start without using the Used Vehicle rule.

Or Page 104 Arsenal

Apply a +4 Availability modifier and a cost reduction between 20% and 50%, depending on how “used� the vehicle is.

You'll need to buy the Positive quality Restricted Gear Cost: 5 BP (max Avail 20 and get a damaged one for 50% cost that you have to repair in Game. Cost some cred after to fix it up during game.

Renault-Fiat Fokker Tundra-9 (Amphibious Jet) = 325,000*.5 = 162,500 and Avail 18.

or

Hughes Stallion (Utility Helicopter) = 225,000*.5 = 112,500 and Avail 16

or

Fed Boeing Commuter (Tilt-Wing Airplane) = 320,000*.5 = 160,000 and Avail 16R

All these are within the limits of the rules and the GM gets to give your cool toy problems in the beginning which you can get fixed during game or just keep it as a fun quirk for the character.

[CanRay]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif) Bwahahahahahaha!

That struck my as very, very funny.

At least in shadowrun, you can get a linguisoft to help you translate.
What would be better though is if the manual was translated from Chinese to (butchered) English.

Rigger: It says to put the wax asparagus on the radiator.
Sami: Don't do that or I will shoot you.

-paws

Or full of advertisements for other knock-off products.

Rigger: "This airframe brought to you by 'Bite the Wax Tadpole'? Jeeze this Asians are weird."
Sami: "OK, that's it, chose a knee you won't be needing, the last straw was insulting my culture!"
Rigger: "But you said you weren't Chinese or Japanese, you were Lice or something..."
Sami: "Laotian! And we're still an Asian people!"
Rigger: "But... You're not Chinese or Japanese..."

[DireRadiant]

Why is it listed if I can't have it at chargen!!!!!!!

I mean, I could look young and live forever (Insert desired Results) if I could get all those age rejuvenation treatments (Insert desirable expensive item of choice) off the bat!

No really, I'm serious, I'm not whining!

[Warlordtheft]

A drone aircraft rigger though has definite possibilities. Though I would shoot for an above grade Electronic Warfare suite, and make sure that all your drones have the right autosofts and decent firewalls.

You can later, should the campaign warrant it, buy or steal or otherwise aquire a full blown aircraft. Though I would stick to the civillian craft, milspec and sec vehicles that are unauthorized will draw attention in most locales.

[kzt]

Helicopters are a huge pain to own and maintain. You need an actual hanger for them, because every x hundreds of hours you have to cover the entire hanger floor with helicopter parts when you disassemble the entire helicopter for inspection and service. So I hope you have lots of Aeronautics Mechanic skill too. And the ability to take a month off every x hundreds of hours to take apart and inspect the bird.

I think they are actually far too cheap in SR. Mostly because I have some idea what a real helicopter costs. The SR price is as absurd as the 17,000 price of the "opulent luxury yacht for
those who like to sail in style."

If you want to own the helo it makes sense that that is what your team does. You are the guys who get called when someone needs a helicopter to deliver someone or pull someone out. Which also means you get paid an absurd amount of cash per mission, but you need to be putting a lot aside to replace the helo that gets shot down.

This means the GM gives you the gear up front, with strings....

[eidolon]

I'm too tempted to make a Neuromancer reference. Yes, planes are expensive. However, how many riggers actually own planes? Most of the time the Johnson can supply one, or you can steal one. What matters is if you can fly the damn thing. Owning one comes later.

Agreed.

also don't forget that piloting aircraft also counts for airborne drones, as far as i know O.o
so even if you can not SIT in the plane, you can have your MIND in there. . and steer drones untill you can get your grubby paws on a real aeroplane.

Agreed.

I hope this didn't sound dismissive. I think a piloting character would be really cool, I just don't think you need to own your own aircraft to make it cool. Besides, think of all the extra Build Points you'll have for the l33t skills and for Contacts that *can* get their hands on deniable aircraft assets for special circumstances.

Agreed.

If having an aircraft of some expensive anything is essential to the campaign, then, in my opinion, the GM should use his vast powers of handwavium and give the PCs the needed item(s). After that, its up to the players to keep it in good shape. If they lose the vehicle through neglect or combat, then they're out of luck.

Agreed.

Hey, something in Shadowrun that you have to earn rather than just twinking a character build... wow!

Agreed, lol'd, agreed, made of win.

Man, you guys managed to say everything I was thinking. Now what am I supposed to do?

[paws2sky]

Or full of advertisements for other knock-off products.

Rigger: "This airframe brought to you by 'Bite the Wax Tadpole'? Jeeze this Asians are weird."
Sami: "OK, that's it, chose a knee you won't be needing, the last straw was insulting my culture!"
Rigger: "But you said you weren't Chinese or Japanese, you were Lice or something..."
Sami: "Laotian! And we're still an Asian people!"
Rigger: "But... You're not Chinese or Japanese..."

Thank you, King of the Hill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Agreed.



Agreed.



Agreed.



Agreed.



Agreed, lol'd, agreed, made of win.

Man, you guys managed to say everything I was thinking. Now what am I supposed to do?

tell us to play nice, no racism, no politics, no religions, no group attacks . .
only things admins are needed for *runs for cover* ^^

[eidolon]

tell us to play nice, no racism, no politics, no religions, no group attacks . .
only things admins are needed for *runs for cover* ^^

But...but, we're people too!

BANHAMMER!

Nah, I figured out what to do.

I went and made coffee and got a cup.

Lots of good suggestions here about how to get an aircraft without breaking the bank. In the past, we've often gone the "GM says you can have it cause it fits your character and the game" route, but the possibilities you get when you start applying things like "stolen, used, etc." are pretty cool. I can just imagine a team coming out onto the roof of a building to get on their transport and finding the rigger propped up against a vent unconscious with a note taped to his goggles that says "We found it, thanks."

[Screaming Eagle]

I think I'm going to have to back the "Get light drones to start, have a secondary focus on infiltration (or Con or whatever your preferance is for "steal freaking huge aircraft") and Grand Theft OMG! what you need or want during play." It has the hilarious bonus that you really don't have to care what happens to the $$$$ piece of legality=NO hardware.

Does this tick off the huge and powerful "The Man", heck yes. But when you took up this job did you plan to live forever or live awesome?

For referance I'm visualising a "Special Ops wash-out/ drop-out" build character with a good chunk of points dusted in and around some piloting skills. Can't fix the things though. I think I'm going to build her later and use it in the next run I'm tossing at my group... there will be parachutes and a total disregard for crashing a now abandoned helicopter into the ocean... ya!

[paws2sky]

But when you took up this job did you plan to live forever or live awesome?

I'm sorry, but there's seems to be a grammatical error here. How could there be an option other than Awesome? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

-paws