Well, that might be the rank of skill you expect your gangers and other common criminals to have. The thing is, if you have to survive out there by yourself, you're going to have to be significantly better. The more of them the are, the more precipitously your odds of survival drop. And common criminals tend to make up for low skills with numbers.

Very true, for active skills a SF guy would mostly be highest in Instruction, Perception, Stealth SG, Wilderness SG, and Influence SG (Talking 5s or 6s). He would have around 4s in Firearm SG (or a single one at 6 for a specialist) and Close Combat SG. They will also all have a specialty area. Sniping, Commo, Demo, Medicine, etc that they will have a very high skill rating in, with a secondary specialty that they have a high rating in.

Knowledges would be History, Military Tactics, Gurillia Tactics, Security, Local Culture & Area in their primary area of focus, Languages in their primary area of focus, Military Weapons & Equipment, Country Knowledge, etc.

Since I don't know too much about the actual military and their training-where would these ''Special Forces Combat Super Monsters'' fall into that tend to be popular in fiction? If a real to life SF fellow has higher skills in the former, with very good(but not SuperUber) in things like firearms, etc(unless, like you said, that awesome sniper might well have that 6)-where are those ''Supar Soliders'' located...or in real militaries, do people like this just not really exist, and is that more of a work of fiction? (Of course genetically/cybernetically enhanced super soldiers are a work of fiction, but I think you know what I mean. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

Funny thing is, I've seen some guys who do stunts with guns that I don't know how they hell they do that. I've seen some old footage of a guy doing things with an old-school shotgun that I think even some military guys might be jealous of, and this guy had nothing to do with the military.

The unstoppable killing machine super soldier is a hollywood'ism. Don't get me wrong, an SF team combat specialist (CQC, Sniper, Weapons) will be better then 4 (5 or 6 in their area), but they will not be the guy who just walks through and kills everyone instantly. SF teams depend on three things to win fights: Shock & Awe, Speed, and Surprise. They are small groups, so if they get in a stand up fight things normally don't go very well for them. The times you see in the news were an SF team held out against crazy numbers, well, lets just say that normal military combat arms guys would do nearly as well.

So basically, an SF team will attack with surprise or from ambush, then fade back. If being chased they will setup ambushes and traps, hit the guys chasing them hard and fast, then pull back again before the enemy has a chance to fully engage them. Hit and run, hit and run, hit and run, the final goal being to escape.

Against hostage takers or during a snatch/grab, they will go in like SWAT. Attack suddenly when the tangos do not expect it (surprise), move in with maximum force (shock & awe), and rapidly grab people before they have a chance to react then get the heck out (speed). Their skills at dealing with locals, language, culture, and blending in allow them to get on target without being spotted. That or they come in on birds really fast. The fireworks should be over and them ready to move out in less than a minute.

You have the Influence skill which is of almost zero relevance to your character and you do not have Dodge.

Pickup Dodge, drop Influence, save some points there.

Also I'd pick up Covert Operations and Small Unit Tactics as knowledge skills. Apart from that, I like the idea of a grizzled vet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

I used to know a former GB and I can assure you Influence isn't high on the list of skills there... I'd love to hear from military personnel who disagree with my assessment...

- J.

I work with them daily The Jake. Granted, not all of them will have all the Influence SG at 5 or 6, but without social skills they can not effectively do a large chunk of their job (training and intelligence gathering).

Hell, I would say most SF guys are 4's in their skills with the best ones hitting higher in their main areas.

Having operated with a few over the years I was in the Corps, I would agree with InfinityzeN that Social Skills are a necessity to accompolish their goals... Not everyone is as socially adept as James Bond, but a minimal level of competence (say 3's) is quite necessary

Well, we can debate the necessity of Influence. But Dodge is a pretty big omission (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

How so? If you mostly attack by ambush and then lay down covering fires as you retreat, you don't have to dodge much. Hell, my ork ganger has the dodge skill but I've used it maybe...2-3 times in the timeframe he's earned 62 karma?

What do you mean, how so? "Never get into a situation where you need to dodge" is not a good strategy. It's basically saying like you plan to win combat by always rolling high numbers. You can't depend on Dodge being unecessary, whether based on your own lack of forsesight, or biffing up a roll, or the opposition being stronger than usual. I mean, maybe it works for your own particular game. But if that's so, it's because your GM is too soft on you, IMO.

I'd say the necessity of the Dodge skill has less to do with what SF operators do, and more to do with the way the combat system is set up in Shadowrun -- certain skills are just "must haves" for combat characters in Shadowrun, and some way to not get your ass shot off is high on the list. Real life operators don't cartwheel around and Neo-dodge bullets, it's true, but in Shadowrun there are just some system-oriented necessities, and defensive skills are one of them.

On the other hand, I've heard military people on this thread talk about tactical movement, or something. There's an acronym for it that I forget, but the strategy they teach is to always keep moving to make yourself a hard target. That's pretty much the Dodge skill right there. An untrained guy will stand in the street and get shot to pieces, while a trained soldier will make sure that it's hard to shoot him. You could say that the Dodge skill is probably the primary reason why enemy casualties are always so disproportionate when we fight against civilian insurgent types. It's not an out and out dodge of the bullets, but then again, it's not really that in Shadowrun either, it's still about moving to make yourself a hard target. I don't even think a Wires III person can see a bullet in time to dodge it -- at best, they can anticipate where the bullet will go based on the angle of the gun. But really, someone with amped reflexes is just doing the same thing you'd do IRL, only in triple-time.

Well, I've parried and blocked like a mo-fo plenty of times. I just haven't bothered with Dodging really because it's really hard to Dodge being magically thrown through a cinder block wall and dropped 15 meters. It's also hard to Dodge the new spell "Napalm Strike" that almost roasts you and the 30 or so gangers who didn't roll as well. How about opening an elevator door to 5 guys with ARs loaded with APDS?

So, no. I ain't exactly had it easy...

My issue with the Dodge skill is that it's really only good against ranged attacks that you're aware of. Unarmed you can Block. Melee you can Parry or Block. I also have the Athletics SG so I could use Gymnastics instead anyway. I've just always been in the situation where I get gatted out of the blue or I'm too damn busy, oh...killing people to waste an Initiative Pass on the ol' Deft Sidestep.

You're not showing that dodge isn't useful. Like you said, it's useful against ranged attacks of which you're aware. If someone is shooting you with an ExEx shotgun slug, and they have enough dice to hit you if you don't Full Defense, then you'd better use Full Defense. Getting 'gatted out of the blue' is rectified by that other can't-live-without-it skill, Perception. And if you're too busy killing the enemies to need full defense, it must be that the enemies suck pretty hard or you always have good cover to use. It's quite possible to kill your enemies from cover and not need full defense, that's how to win in combat. But if you're out of cover and your enemies can't hurt you, even when you don't full defense, then your enemies are teh suck. The difference between a trained soldier and a non-combatant is that the trained soldier has the Dodge skill and can survive being caught in the open by dangerous enemies. The non-combatant, on the other hand, just gets gunned down the first time that happens.

I was under the impression that the entire purpose of an ambush was to leave a target unable to effectively defend against it. With that in mind, dodging seems to be working as intended.

This is why the Perception skill, and associated sense mods, are requisite not only for SOF personnel, but anyone in a line of fire who doesn't wanna get lit up bad enough their limbs are in another time zone.

My issue is the fact that if you're aware of the attack, you're either firing back while moving to cover or already behind it and hosing them with just your smartgun poking out. If you're shooting back while moving to cover, you can't use the Full Defense action. If you're behind cover and firing back with your smartgun barely poking out, you don't need to Dodge anyway.

Yes, different styles of play, but my way has worked for me so far...

Sounds to me like your character goes first much of the time, that's the only way you'd already be moving into cover before you got attacked. This joker, however, has a big ol' 8 initiative, and only 2 passes. He needs Dodge, or he's going to die, because he's definitely not going to be acting first most of the time. And your character would need Dodge as much as the next man when faced with someone who has higher initiative, someone who has the RC edge that lets them always go first in the first round of combat, someone who spends Edge to go first, or even when he just glitches his own initiative roll.

Please keep in mind that you can not enlist in the Army and go directly to Special Forces school (any longer, I know that this was not the strict rule in the past). Prior service with other units is required. In practical terms this usually means service with an infantry (e.g. 10th mountain) or airborne (e.g. 101st) and/or Ranger School/a hitch with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

So before you even start the six (or more depending on your specialty) months of Special Forces school, your character would have substantial infantry training. In addition to the basic skills taught to every Special Forces soldier, you character would also receive specialty (you can look up what those are if you really care) training before being assigned to a unit. Finally, as part of the normal time he’s spent in the service, when not deployed in the field, your character would have undergone constant training to bring his supplementary (not specialty skills) up to snuff.

Therefore, you would be proficient with the three main types of combat/weapons: close quarters battle (unarmed combat, pistol, sub-machine gun, shotgun, breaching, and room clearing), infantry combat (assault riffle, grenade launcher, light machine gun, and mortar), and long combat (sniper rifle and fire direction). Reconnaissance, infiltration, maneuver and escape. Survival and basic first aid and demolitions. Tactical communication (and now, that things have changed because of shortages to something that the various operator groups have been arguing for a long time, Forward Air Control as well), and general operational security for insurgency and counter insurgency. And language skills and cultural skills, etc…

I don’t mean to belabor the point by going on and on. What I think you should do is a little research and put together a skills list (a lot of this you can get on the various Army Web sites). And then talk to your GM about the character you want to play/the story you want to be part of. And then adjust the character creation process to make it work for you and the rest of the party (or play a different type of character).

AFE (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Really? Granted I know fairly little about how the US military operates except through friends that have been in and from a quick two minute search of the internet on this but I thought programs like the SEAL Challenge contract, the Option 40 contract or the 18X Special Forces enlistment program the whole point of which was allowing you to try out for the SEALs, Rangers or Green Beret respectively straight out of basic training? Now granted you've got to pass the course and if you fail you seem to get shunted sideways into a regular unit but it looks as though you can try for them almost straight away.

Something to keep in mind is that corporate armies probably won't operate the same way as today's government services. Maybe the corporate military that you enlisted with hand picks troops for specific roles in their special forces. They could easily bypass broad training and go for specializations. It may not be the best training, but if accountants are deciding the training, rather than experienced veterans, you can come up with limited skill sets. An accountant might not think pistol training is worth the effort for a sniper. Or a demolitions man would only need Longarms (Shotguns) and Pistols training for some reason. While we can argue what skill sets actual Green Berets have, future corporate types don't always think in terms of field operations, but in board room operations. I would say, go with what you want. Maybe the reason you left the corporate military is because of the poor training. You made too many requests about cross training and they figured you were just too expensive to keep. So, they send you on an expendable mission, and somehow you survived. They wrote you off as dead, but here you are in the shadows.

SEALs are different, as we've already established. BUDS weeds out all those who are not mature and crazy enough to be a functional member of a team.

to use a metaphor;
the Navy and army use two different methods to cook up their SF units. the Navy turns up the heat for a short period of time, while the Army lets them simmer for longer.

18x is definitely no longer available. the amount of people who signed up for it VS the amount who graduated didn't justify giving them slots in SFAS.

plus, in order to go through that pipeline, you basically got insta-promoted to E-4, which didn't sit well with those who actually earned it.

the "Quickest" way into SOCOM is supposedly Air Force Para-Rescue. but it won't be any easier than any of the other options.

Lots of wanta-SEALs get weeded up in the pre-BUDS training too. Then they continue to weed them out during the next several months of training. You don't get the Trident until you get done with all the post BUDS training iirc.

PJ school is supposed to be about as difficult to get through as BUDS. Rangers is the easiest, though it isn't a cakewalk either to be successful in a battalion. Ranger school is a bear according to the various people I know who did it, but you don't normally go there up front.

Essentially SEALs, and PJs want all guys who could be varsity athletes at a division one school, are completely unable to ever give up, won't let their group down and also are significantly brighter then the average bear. SF seems to not be so hugely focused on physical condition (though it's still very, very important) but also have the ability to learn languages as well as teach and work effectively with crazy people.

i was just thinking we may be looking at this build the wrong way.
apparently several of us here do have military experience, and seem to be thinking about the combat side of the job

now I agree spanish instead of arabic

and I like the comment about a good mind & plan better then a panther cannon

now I am done rambling...
why not think of this Former GB as a military advisor like the ones who helped train the Vietnam soldiers
need a good social set of skills to teach
good combat skill set to prove his training
and survival skills, both survival itself and dodge to get behind that tree

depending on what skills you finally choose, longarms (Shotguns) may be a good one. seems the North VietCon hated the guy with the shotgun
good perception
good people skills (as in you try not piss off the people you are trying help)
Knowledge about tactics and current events in area serving/ may be serving in

several movies come to mind that may help your thinking:
Good Morning Vietnam--Robin Williams befriends a kid who turns out to work for the north & saves Robins butt couple times
Glory--Matt Boderick training the black union soldiers for the horrors of war
We were Soldiers--real life story, played by Mel Gibson, of the creation of the modern Army AirCav
Last Samurai--Tom Cruise training the Japanese in modern warfare, before his capture

inflitraion & shadowing may be handy, if you end leaning towards the guys in Somalia, aka Black Hawk Down (I would love to use some of the 1st aid scenes for training people but they won't let me)

another help (and I just spent an hour trying to find the link) was a website that had shadowrun military writeups. not sure which ED.
but I did find:
http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/note.htm
http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/Shadowrun/specfor/index.html

hope those help some

I did this once for an SF type character. My skill list worked to be about over 12+ Active skills. This was more for a groundpounder/grunt too - not a specialist.

To do it any justice you wind up with next to zero cash for starting gear and minimalist cyberware, if any. I realise that having those skills would be more important but when you consider how much time/energy the armed forces spend training these guys, it is hard to reconcile that they wouldn't have some cyber/bioware and perhaps the odd cutting edge implant.

- J.