Dumpshock Forums > Former Green Beret

crash2029

May 3 2009, 10:54 PM

SSgt. Grady Simmons alias Grendel

Point Breakdown:
Metatype- 0
Attributes- 220
Skills- 138
Contacts- 9
Qualities- 0
Gear- 33
Total- 400

[ Spoiler ]

"Let's get something straight, I'm a professional. I'm a soldier. As long as the contract lasts I'll do what you say. I do reserve the right to refuse to follow an order that is stupid, unduly dangerous, or egregious. I will follow orders but I won't endanger civilians. If you want wanton destruction I suggest you go hire some street punks. I will however make your problem go away in an efficient and timely manner. If you need judicious applications of violence or accurate intel, then you have found the right merc. Now that we have that out of the way why don't you tell me about the nature of your problem and we can discuss compensation."

A battle hardened warrior who has seen action in every hellhole from Tehran to the Yucatan, Grendel is driven to keep fighting, hoping to outrun his nightmares. As a Green Beret his job was to interface and negotiate with the locals. He was good at his job. Unfortunately his sterling career took a nosedive during an op in the Yucatan. His A-team was sent in to help train locals in guerilla warefare against Aztlan troops. During a LRRP he was taken prisoner by Aztlan troops. He broke under interrogation, and as a result his team was killed. He escaped detainment with aid from the locals only to courtmartialed upon return to the 'states. The courtmartial was unable to convict him but the damage was done. His career was over in short order. He took to the shadows, hoping to find redemption, or at least solace in the mercenary life.

wylie

May 4 2009, 12:05 AM

hmm, just off the top...
this going along with basic character build..
you spent 220 BP on attributes, when allowed 200 BP

if you got augmentation, look at SWAT cyber suite. drops both nuyen cost & essence cost, pg 48

if you take those 20 points, put them into skills.
either bump up firearms and/or clsoe combat
maybe pick pilot ground or aircraft, boat even
what about outdoors group, instead of just survival?
on 1st aid, spec. on combat wounds

the quote is real good, and the background great

InfinityzeN

May 4 2009, 01:05 AM

Actually, he is fine on stats since the 20 points are in Edge.

* Consider dropping Infiltration and Survival. Take Stealth SG and Wilderness SG at 1 each.
* Think about dropping Wired Reflexes and Skill wires, replace with Move-by-Wire 1. Granted it cost 33k more, but it would free up 0.6 essence, give you one more point of Reaction, and a bonus to dodge.
* Why do you have the partial cyberarm with Commlink and Sim module with no computer skills besides datasearch? There are lots of other possible uses for the money/essence or even the cyberlimb.

psychophipps

May 4 2009, 02:12 AM

I would swap the Military Procedures knowledge skill for Insurgency Tactics. The Special Forces are mostly force multipliers and hearts and minds so they need this skill to help stop insurgents and to teach people how to be insurgents.

I don't see a bunch of Logic skills here so I would drop that by a point and increase Agility or Reaction. The Charisma + Influence SG works really well. Kudos as you're probably the first person I've seen on here to realize that SF is about people, not just lighting fires and blowing stuff up.

First Aid(Combat Wounds) - 1(+2)
Armorer(Firearms) - 1(+2)
Remove Data Search
Demolitions(IED) - 1(+2) because anything not directly manufactured is an IED, technically.
Survival(Desert) - 2(+2)
are the skill list changes I would make. Gives you a few more points and I would try to milk for a Close Combat SG of 3 if I could get it.

Larme

May 4 2009, 02:29 AM

I dunno, I envision 2070's Special Forces to be more like The Major from Ghost in the Shell. What you've made is more of a grunt, someone who's got a well rounded skill set but no real special deadliness. I see Special Forces as being stuffed to the gills with cyberware, nasty guys who kill you without making a sound. Which is not your guy, because he only has 10 dice to kill you with smartlink, and he only has 7 dice to not make a sound, i.e. he makes lots of sounds.

The problem is that a Green Beret is trained in a broad set of skills, they can do stuff all by themselves because they're just that good. But if you make a build like that, you're nowhere near strong enough to be considered elite ex special forces because your points are spread too thin. The fact is, your normal level of BPs is just not enough to create an accurate ex special forces guy. I think this guy works great as a former G.I. Or maybe even one of your less terrifying special forces. But he's just too blah to be one of the elite IMO. The average streetsam would carve him like a turkey just because he's not anywhere near as cybered. Now, given your back story, the fact that he's a Green Beret who sucks at combat might make a bit of sense. Though I have no idea if they actually have population talker peoples, I sorta thought they were all dangerous stealth operatives, but I don't know much about it...

EDIT: SR4A has a list of sample grunts that would give you a great idea of power levels. Your guy is more on the level of a cop. The elite special forces guy (a Red Samurai) is a lot better. Just the basic grunt in the Red Samurai has Agility 5(7) and Firearms 5, or 14 attack dice with his smartlink. If you're not close to that power level, I don't think you can be special forces.

InfinityzeN

May 4 2009, 02:33 AM

Oh, and one thing. SSgt is an Airforce rank, not an Army rank. If you want him to be a true 'Green Beret' then his rank would be SSG (Staff Sergeant) or SFC (Sergeant First Class). Larme is right though, he doesn't have the dice to back up being a Special Forces Operator.

Critias

May 4 2009, 02:35 AM

QUOTE (Larme @ May 3 2009, 09:29 PM)

The fact is, your normal level of BPs is just not enough to create an accurate ex special forces guy.

This.

Take a look at the NPC section in one of the core books, and you'll see stats for some SpecOps types (Tir Ghosts are in the main book, IIRC). They're just out of scope with starting stats, as they should be.

Why not be a Special Forces trainee who washed out for some reason, or something like that? That would be a lot more possible with starting points, would still give you some military training, etc. The only thing to take a hit would be your cool factor.

Daishi

May 4 2009, 03:43 AM

QUOTE (Larme @ May 3 2009, 08:29 PM)

I dunno, I envision 2070's Special Forces to be more like The Major from Ghost in the Shell.

Special Forces covers an umbrella of operations and I suspect you'd see greater specialization by 2070. The guys who are counter-terrorism or direct action oriented will probably be loaded the gills with augmentation and have crazy combat skills for that maximum impact in the shortest amount of time. The guys who are about deep reconnaissance or unconventional warfare probably keep a pretty simple augmentation layout to maximize reliability while in the middle of nowhere, and they would focus more on the social and survival aspects than sheer personal combat power. That being said, neither could probably be built properly at 400 BP. At least, not for special forces of AAA megacorps or first world governments. Special forces from the mercenary community or from a lesser power could be done reasonably well at 400 BP.

I would suggest switching from a background in the Green Berets to a similar SOF community in your choice of small time power. (A-level megacorp, run-of-the-mill merc outfit, or developing/third world military.) They would need the broad skill sets you have on your character, but wouldn't have the assets to produce operators as effective as the major powers.

crash2029

May 4 2009, 04:36 AM

InfinityzeN- I went with the commlink and sim module because there are so many things that those can help with. Especially when the team hacker does all their information warfare stuff. The reason for the limb itself is story related. I meant staff sergeant, I probably abbreviated it wrong.

psychophipps- I like the insurgency tactics idea, thanks. Thanks for the compliment as well. I took the docwagon skillsoft cluster for EMT work. It is useful to be able to do a data search when the hacker is occupied. As far as the IED specialization, I went with EOD because he is not really focused on setting them.

Larme- It is true that Green Berets have a diverse skillset, however they do not do everything themselves. They are on a team for a reason. I was basically going for a social/combat build with the ability to step in elsewhere as necessary. As far as low dicepools go, he does have edge for a reason. Additionally my group uses cinematic rules. Also I do not have SR4A.

What I was going for was a generalist team player type. Someone who is decent in a wide variety of scenarios. In a team situation he would probably be leader, interfacing with the public, leading negotiations, and backing up the sammy/adept/combat jock.

kzt

May 4 2009, 07:10 AM

Guys who are supposed to be low profile types able to blend in probably shouldn't have obvious cyberware. Other then that this looks OK. I might put more point in Spanish than Arabic, as the Spanish is part of the explicit backstory.

SF guys are not commandos or "operators". That role is filled in the US by Rangers at the low end, SEALs at the mid-tier and Delta/DevGrp at the high end. SF does training/building of foreign militaries, or creates foreign militaries. They are typically very skilled and determined guys, but they don't do direct action missions on a regular basis.

You can't build a reasonable ex-SF guy given normal starting SR BPs and rules, so this looks ok.

ElFenrir

May 4 2009, 10:46 AM

Actually, I made a rather believable Spec Ops person under 400 BP before. It is *possible*, though it is a bit difficult. But yeah, this particular guy is spread a bit thin skillwise. I mean, he's not a bad character at all; and since you want him as more of the ''backup fellow'', he can indeed do this with little problem.

750 Karma though(well, under the old x3 attribute system-might be more Karma now in the eratta to equal it out to the old 750)? No problem. (I'm wondering what the new Karma count will be to make up for the fact it's Attribute x 5 in SR4A, but then again, we play under the old rules anyhow so it's more of a curiosity than anything.)

psychophipps

May 4 2009, 01:02 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that a DP of 6 is pretty solidly in the "professional" category. You're not an expert or anything, but you can do the job without screwing up too often. 3 is a "typical stat" and 3 skill rating is "professional".

This is one area where the RAW and the descriptors don't hash out too well and RAW for wounding and other negative modifiers fall flat, IMO. If 13 DP makes you a Tir Ghost/Delta Force at a given skill, why is it sooo daaamn eeaasy to make a 15+ DP in (insert just about any concept you want here) at character gen?

ElFenrir

May 4 2009, 02:04 PM

I've kind of wondered that myself. I Mean, you can get these DP's without even going overboard with ubertwinkage.

Agility 4(6.) 2 levels of Muscle Toner. Nothing out there.
Pistols 4(+2). Not considered twinkage, IMO. I mean, it's a 'veteran' score but it's nothing out of the ordinary.
Smartlink. Enjoy 14 DP and this was ''anti'' twinkage. If they were both softmaxed scores(which, having one 5 in a stat and one 5 in a skill does not constitute powergaming in my book), that's 16 dice, and it's amazingly easy to get.

IMO, i would have redone some of the descriptors.

InfinityzeN

May 4 2009, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (kzt @ May 4 2009, 02:10 AM)

SF guys are not commandos or "operators". That role is filled in the US by Rangers at the low end, SEALs at the mid-tier and Delta/DevGrp at the high end. SF does training/building of foreign militaries, or creates foreign militaries. They are typically very skilled and determined guys, but they don't do direct action missions on a regular basis.

Ummmm.... NO. I work in the SOF community and I can tell you for a fact that SF guys are operators. As for Delta, they are just SF guys! Seriously, they are 1st Special Forces Group, Detachment Delta. And as for SF not going on missions much, BAHAHAHAHAHAH! Those guys are doing a heck of a lot more direct action missions right now then anything else.

Rangers are not "operators" in the slightest sense of the word. They are commandos (or more accurately shock troops).

As for SEALs, they are the exact same thing as Army Special Forces except that they work for the Navy. Guess what, the Special Forces has dive teams.

Please, please, please stop giving out information that is totally wrong.

psychophipps

May 4 2009, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ May 4 2009, 08:07 AM)

As for SEALs, they are the exact same thing as Army Special Forces except that they work for the Navy.

I strongly suggest that you don't repeat this to your SOF cohorts, my friend.

kzt

May 4 2009, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ May 4 2009, 09:07 AM)

As for SEALs, they are the exact same thing as Army Special Forces except that they work for the Navy. Guess what, the Special Forces has dive teams.

Please, please, please stop giving out information that is totally wrong.

Um, so where in SEAL training do they do the whole Robin Sage bit? No, SEALs are pretty much trained as classic commandos. They, like much of SOCOM, get misused a lot. Which is why we have Marines doing their best to provide military training of the ANA while SF A teams are doing door kicking.

InfinityzeN

May 4 2009, 06:31 PM

Correct, MARSOC is the main standard military/irregular military training group in SOCOM at this time.

And you are also correct in that we at SOCOM are misused a lot. Our problem is that we are task organized down to regular military forces in theater. Since regular forces do not properly understand SOF missions, it is very common that SO Forces are tasked to do things outside of their mission range. The problem is that everyone thinks SOF does the stuff in movies. What SOF actually mostly does is training, recon, observation, and intelligence gathering (with some snatch/grab thrown in).

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 4 2009, 10:24 AM)

I strongly suggest that you don't repeat this to your SOF cohorts, my friend. biggrin.gif

That didn't come out exactly right. What I was trying to say is that SEALs fill much the same slot in the Navy that SF fills in the Army.

SEALs actually do FSF training and that is part of their mission. In fact, if I remember my list properly, SEALs do everything SF does *except* standard military/irregular military training. Working for a 4 star Navy SEAL is... interesting.

Fix-it

May 4 2009, 06:55 PM

ahhh joy. the eternal "who does what" debate. GWOT threw any semblance of task-specific units completely out the window. good thing there's a war on, or the bickering would probably ensure no work ever got done

the funny thing is, even Big Army is now encroaching on SF territory, what with the proliferation of Embedded Training Teams and Cav Scout squadrons.

Writer

May 4 2009, 06:59 PM

I put together a former Special Forces type. His "design" by the military was for demolitions, and they gave him Increased Bone Density and Orthoskin, as well as cyber eyes and ears. He can survive near misses, unless he is taking down a bridge or building. His skills are all in the moderate range, though. I account for this with the fact that he has a Criminal SIN, spent time in prison, and has been on probation for five years. He hasn't been practicing, has been distracted by other concerns, and only recently has gotten back into the game as a shadowrunner.

The reason why special forces types of any kind are special is because of their intense training. 400BP isn't enough to create an active Green Beret, but what if he left because of some Big Regret, or was falsely accused of a crime and now has a Criminal SIN. He spends time away from his work, and now money is tight, and someone found out what he used to do for a living. They recruit him for a shadowrunning team. He isn't as good as his reputation, which creates some opportunities for role playing, but at the very least, he knows he can get back to where he once was, so he still carries the confidence of a man on the rise.

Larme

May 4 2009, 07:11 PM

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 4 2009, 08:02 AM)

This is one area where the RAW and the descriptors don't hash out too well and RAW for wounding and other negative modifiers fall flat, IMO. If 13 DP makes you a Tir Ghost/Delta Force at a given skill, why is it sooo daaamn eeaasy to make a 15+ DP in (insert just about any concept you want here) at character gen?

Most military types work in a team. You really don't need 15 dice to shoot someone when you've got 4 buddies who have them caught in a crossfire. They're going to get shot. Streetsams, on the other hand, are largely solo operators. They might have other combat jocks on the team, but the way most teams are set up, the sammy needs to have what it takes to handle the combat specialty all on her own.

Also, there's the fact that Ghosts are grunts. Basically, each one of them is nobody special. They're people who joined the special forces, got all that fancy training, and stuck with it. I'm not saying that ghosts couldn't be better than that, but you're never going to find a large group where every soldier is better than a Tir Ghost. The Ghosts might have super special solo operatives that are just as good as the best streetsams, but those rise to the level of Prime Runners, they're no longer grunts. By definition, a PC or Prime Runner is someone who's special, someone who might have exceptional abilities that are very rare and valuable. And by definition, grunts aren't that, even if they're part of one of the world's most elite units.

ElFenrir

May 4 2009, 08:01 PM

Our team has an ex SPec. Ops fellow-some demolitions and long-range gunning. Well, he's more specialized, but he's really good at what he does.

My sam is the team's muscle and heavy-hitter; he is also ex spec. ops, but he's actually not quite as good with guns as the other gun specialist(he's an unarmed/blades style sam.) The guy in the book is a decent example of a sam, but I wouldn't call him special ops-good street guy, but not special ops(the sam I have would take him apart, but he was also built with 750 Karma. Hell, I built a 400 BP sam that could take him apart but that's neither here nor there. That's called ''gee, how insane can I make this?'' for fun.

)

Also, in the teams Ive seen there is more than one combat jock. Oftentimes the sam doesn't have to handle it on his own.

Adarael

May 4 2009, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ May 4 2009, 10:31 AM)

And you are also correct in that we at SOCOM are misused a lot. Our problem is that we are task organized down to regular military forces in theater. Since regular forces do not properly understand SOF missions, it is very common that SO Forces are tasked to do things outside of their mission range. The problem is that everyone thinks SOF does the stuff in movies. What SOF actually mostly does is training, recon, observation, and intelligence gathering (with some snatch/grab thrown in).

This is why I am always amused when people question why my ex-SOF mercenary character has high skill ratings in Instruction, History, Stealth, Wilderness, and Influence.

Larme

May 4 2009, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (ElFenrir @ May 4 2009, 04:01 PM)

Also, in the teams Ive seen there is more than one combat jock. Oftentimes the sam doesn't have to handle it on his own.

I don't mean it's always like that. But the mystique of the streetsam, at least, is that he can survive the mean streets on his own when he has to.

psychophipps

May 4 2009, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ May 4 2009, 12:49 PM)

I don't mean it's always like that. But the mystique of the streetsam, at least, is that he can survive the mean streets on his own when he has to.

Of course, those aforementioned "Mean Streets" tends to max out at a 4 stat and a 3-4 skill total for about 99% of the situations you might get into. Just to keep things in the correct perspective.

crash2029

May 4 2009, 10:50 PM

Wow. I didn't realize this was such a can of worms. I built this character trying to walk the line between a realistic team member and a cinematic special forces. I went with green beret because as far as I know their primary role is the training of indigenous peoples in unconventional warfare. This suited my concept of a face/soldier, and also makes allowance for a broad array of other skills. I like generalist characters. I like having a tool for almost every situation. I am not especially bothered by the fact that my dice pools are smaller. When a situation arises that requires more dice than I have, that is where edge and planning come in. I find a good plan and a flexible mind are far more deadly than a Panther XXL.

Larme

May 4 2009, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 4 2009, 04:41 PM)

Of course, those aforementioned "Mean Streets" tends to max out at a 4 stat and a 3-4 skill total for about 99% of the situations you might get into. Just to keep things in the correct perspective.

Well, that might be the rank of skill you expect your gangers and other common criminals to have. The thing is, if you have to survive out there by yourself, you're going to have to be significantly better. The more of them the are, the more precipitously your odds of survival drop. And common criminals tend to make up for low skills with numbers.

InfinityzeN

May 4 2009, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (Adarael @ May 4 2009, 03:35 PM)

This is why I am always amused when people question why my ex-SOF mercenary character has high skill ratings in Instruction, History, Stealth, Wilderness, and Influence.

Very true, for active skills a SF guy would mostly be highest in Instruction, Perception, Stealth SG, Wilderness SG, and Influence SG (Talking 5s or 6s). He would have around 4s in Firearm SG (or a single one at 6 for a specialist) and Close Combat SG. They will also all have a specialty area. Sniping, Commo, Demo, Medicine, etc that they will have a very high skill rating in, with a secondary specialty that they have a high rating in.

Knowledges would be History, Military Tactics, Gurillia Tactics, Security, Local Culture & Area in their primary area of focus, Languages in their primary area of focus, Military Weapons & Equipment, Country Knowledge, etc.

ElFenrir

May 5 2009, 12:00 AM

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ May 4 2009, 07:51 PM)

Very true, for active skills a SF guy would mostly be highest in Instruction, Perception, Stealth SG, Wilderness SG, and Influence SG (Talking 5s or 6s). He would have around 4s in Firearm SG (or a single one at 6 for a specialist) and Close Combat SG. They will also all have a specialty area. Sniping, Commo, Demo, Medicine, etc that they will have a very high skill rating in, with a secondary specialty that they have a high rating in.

Knowledges would be History, Military Tactics, Gurillia Tactics, Security, Local Culture & Area in their primary area of focus, Languages in their primary area of focus, Military Weapons & Equipment, Country Knowledge, etc.

Since I don't know too much about the actual military and their training-where would these ''Special Forces Combat Super Monsters'' fall into that tend to be popular in fiction? If a real to life SF fellow has higher skills in the former, with very good(but not SuperUber) in things like firearms, etc(unless, like you said, that awesome sniper might well have that 6)-where are those ''Supar Soliders'' located...or in real militaries, do people like this just not really exist, and is that more of a work of fiction? (Of course genetically/cybernetically enhanced super soldiers are a work of fiction, but I think you know what I mean.

)

Funny thing is, I've seen some guys who do stunts with guns that I don't know how they hell they do that. I've seen some old footage of a guy doing things with an old-school shotgun that I think even some military guys might be jealous of, and this guy had nothing to do with the military.

InfinityzeN

May 5 2009, 01:18 AM

The unstoppable killing machine super soldier is a hollywood'ism. Don't get me wrong, an SF team combat specialist (CQC, Sniper, Weapons) will be better then 4 (5 or 6 in their area), but they will not be the guy who just walks through and kills everyone instantly. SF teams depend on three things to win fights: Shock & Awe, Speed, and Surprise. They are small groups, so if they get in a stand up fight things normally don't go very well for them. The times you see in the news were an SF team held out against crazy numbers, well, lets just say that normal military combat arms guys would do nearly as well.

So basically, an SF team will attack with surprise or from ambush, then fade back. If being chased they will setup ambushes and traps, hit the guys chasing them hard and fast, then pull back again before the enemy has a chance to fully engage them. Hit and run, hit and run, hit and run, the final goal being to escape.

Against hostage takers or during a snatch/grab, they will go in like SWAT. Attack suddenly when the tangos do not expect it (surprise), move in with maximum force (shock & awe), and rapidly grab people before they have a chance to react then get the heck out (speed). Their skills at dealing with locals, language, culture, and blending in allow them to get on target without being spotted. That or they come in on birds really fast. The fireworks should be over and them ready to move out in less than a minute.

The Jake

May 5 2009, 01:53 AM

You have the Influence skill which is of almost zero relevance to your character and you do not have Dodge.

Pickup Dodge, drop Influence, save some points there.

Also I'd pick up Covert Operations and Small Unit Tactics as knowledge skills. Apart from that, I like the idea of a grizzled vet.

- J.

The Jake

May 5 2009, 01:58 AM

QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ May 5 2009, 12:51 AM)

Very true, for active skills a SF guy would mostly be highest in Instruction, Perception, Stealth SG, Wilderness SG, and Influence SG (Talking 5s or 6s). He would have around 4s in Firearm SG (or a single one at 6 for a specialist) and Close Combat SG. They will also all have a specialty area. Sniping, Commo, Demo, Medicine, etc that they will have a very high skill rating in, with a secondary specialty that they have a high rating in.

Knowledges would be History, Military Tactics, Gurillia Tactics, Security, Local Culture & Area in their primary area of focus, Languages in their primary area of focus, Military Weapons & Equipment, Country Knowledge, etc.

I used to know a former GB and I can assure you Influence isn't high on the list of skills there... I'd love to hear from military personnel who disagree with my assessment...

- J.

InfinityzeN

May 5 2009, 02:12 AM

I work with them daily The Jake. Granted, not all of them will have all the Influence SG at 5 or 6, but without social skills they can not effectively do a large chunk of their job (training and intelligence gathering).

Hell, I would say most SF guys are 4's in their skills with the best ones hitting higher in their main areas.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

May 5 2009, 02:25 AM

Having operated with a few over the years I was in the Corps, I would agree with InfinityzeN that Social Skills are a necessity to accompolish their goals... Not everyone is as socially adept as James Bond, but a minimal level of competence (say 3's) is quite necessary

Larme

May 5 2009, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (The Jake @ May 4 2009, 08:53 PM)

You have the Influence skill which is of almost zero relevance to your character and you do not have Dodge.

Pickup Dodge, drop Influence, save some points there.

Also I'd pick up Covert Operations and Small Unit Tactics as knowledge skills. Apart from that, I like the idea of a grizzled vet.

- J.

Well, we can debate the necessity of Influence. But Dodge is a pretty big omission

psychophipps

May 5 2009, 04:40 AM

QUOTE (Larme @ May 4 2009, 07:30 PM)

Well, we can debate the necessity of Influence. But Dodge is a pretty big omission

How so? If you mostly attack by ambush and then lay down covering fires as you retreat, you don't have to dodge much. Hell, my ork ganger has the dodge skill but I've used it maybe...2-3 times in the timeframe he's earned 62 karma?

Larme

May 5 2009, 04:55 AM

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 5 2009, 12:40 AM)

How so? If you mostly attack by ambush and then lay down covering fires as you retreat, you don't have to dodge much. Hell, my ork ganger has the dodge skill but I've used it maybe...2-3 times in the timeframe he's earned 62 karma?

What do you mean, how so? "Never get into a situation where you need to dodge" is not a good strategy. It's basically saying like you plan to win combat by always rolling high numbers. You can't depend on Dodge being unecessary, whether based on your own lack of forsesight, or biffing up a roll, or the opposition being stronger than usual. I mean, maybe it works for your own particular game. But if that's so, it's because your GM is too soft on you, IMO.

Critias

May 5 2009, 03:37 PM

I'd say the necessity of the Dodge skill has less to do with what SF operators do, and more to do with the way the combat system is set up in Shadowrun -- certain skills are just "must haves" for combat characters in Shadowrun, and some way to not get your ass shot off is high on the list. Real life operators don't cartwheel around and Neo-dodge bullets, it's true, but in Shadowrun there are just some system-oriented necessities, and defensive skills are one of them.

Larme

May 5 2009, 05:28 PM

On the other hand, I've heard military people on this thread talk about tactical movement, or something. There's an acronym for it that I forget, but the strategy they teach is to always keep moving to make yourself a hard target. That's pretty much the Dodge skill right there. An untrained guy will stand in the street and get shot to pieces, while a trained soldier will make sure that it's hard to shoot him. You could say that the Dodge skill is probably the primary reason why enemy casualties are always so disproportionate when we fight against civilian insurgent types. It's not an out and out dodge of the bullets, but then again, it's not really that in Shadowrun either, it's still about moving to make yourself a hard target. I don't even think a Wires III person can see a bullet in time to dodge it -- at best, they can anticipate where the bullet will go based on the angle of the gun. But really, someone with amped reflexes is just doing the same thing you'd do IRL, only in triple-time.

psychophipps

May 5 2009, 05:57 PM

Well, I've parried and blocked like a mo-fo plenty of times. I just haven't bothered with Dodging really because it's really hard to Dodge being magically thrown through a cinder block wall and dropped 15 meters. It's also hard to Dodge the new spell "Napalm Strike" that almost roasts you and the 30 or so gangers who didn't roll as well. How about opening an elevator door to 5 guys with ARs loaded with APDS?

So, no. I ain't exactly had it easy...

My issue with the Dodge skill is that it's really only good against ranged attacks that you're aware of. Unarmed you can Block. Melee you can Parry or Block. I also have the Athletics SG so I could use Gymnastics instead anyway. I've just always been in the situation where I get gatted out of the blue or I'm too damn busy, oh...killing people to waste an Initiative Pass on the ol' Deft Sidestep.

Larme

May 5 2009, 06:27 PM

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 5 2009, 12:57 PM)

My issue with the Dodge skill is that it's really only good against ranged attacks that you're aware of. Unarmed you can Block. Melee you can Parry or Block. I also have the Athletics SG so I could use Gymnastics instead anyway. I've just always been in the situation where I get gatted out of the blue or I'm too damn busy, oh...killing people to waste an Initiative Pass on the ol' Deft Sidestep.

You're not showing that dodge isn't useful. Like you said, it's useful against ranged attacks of which you're aware. If someone is shooting you with an ExEx shotgun slug, and they have enough dice to hit you if you don't Full Defense, then you'd better use Full Defense. Getting 'gatted out of the blue' is rectified by that other can't-live-without-it skill, Perception. And if you're too busy killing the enemies to need full defense, it must be that the enemies suck pretty hard or you always have good cover to use. It's quite possible to kill your enemies from cover and not need full defense, that's how to win in combat. But if you're out of cover and your enemies can't hurt you, even when you don't full defense, then your enemies are teh suck. The difference between a trained soldier and a non-combatant is that the trained soldier has the Dodge skill and can survive being caught in the open by dangerous enemies. The non-combatant, on the other hand, just gets gunned down the first time that happens.

Adarael

May 5 2009, 07:12 PM

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 5 2009, 10:57 AM)

My issue with the Dodge skill is that it's really only good against ranged attacks that you're aware of.

I was under the impression that the entire purpose of an ambush was to leave a target unable to effectively defend against it. With that in mind, dodging seems to be working as intended.

This is why the Perception skill, and associated sense mods, are requisite not only for SOF personnel, but anyone in a line of fire who doesn't wanna get lit up bad enough their limbs are in another time zone.

psychophipps

May 5 2009, 07:50 PM

My issue is the fact that if you're aware of the attack, you're either firing back while moving to cover or already behind it and hosing them with just your smartgun poking out. If you're shooting back while moving to cover, you can't use the Full Defense action. If you're behind cover and firing back with your smartgun barely poking out, you don't need to Dodge anyway.

Yes, different styles of play, but my way has worked for me so far...

Larme

May 5 2009, 07:53 PM

QUOTE (psychophipps @ May 5 2009, 03:50 PM)

My issue is the fact that if you're aware of the attack, you're either firing back while moving to cover or already behind it and hosing them with just your smartgun poking out. If you're shooting back while moving to cover, you can't use the Full Defense action. If you're behind cover and firing back with your smartgun barely poking out, you don't need to Dodge anyway.

Yes, different styles of play, but my way has worked for me so far...

Sounds to me like your character goes first much of the time, that's the only way you'd already be moving into cover before you got attacked. This joker, however, has a big ol' 8 initiative, and only 2 passes. He needs Dodge, or he's going to die, because he's definitely not going to be acting first most of the time. And your character would need Dodge as much as the next man when faced with someone who has higher initiative, someone who has the RC edge that lets them always go first in the first round of combat, someone who spends Edge to go first, or even when he just glitches his own initiative roll.

Anythingforenoughnuyen

May 5 2009, 08:41 PM

Please keep in mind that you can not enlist in the Army and go directly to Special Forces school (any longer, I know that this was not the strict rule in the past). Prior service with other units is required. In practical terms this usually means service with an infantry (e.g. 10th mountain) or airborne (e.g. 101st) and/or Ranger School/a hitch with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

So before you even start the six (or more depending on your specialty) months of Special Forces school, your character would have substantial infantry training. In addition to the basic skills taught to every Special Forces soldier, you character would also receive specialty (you can look up what those are if you really care) training before being assigned to a unit. Finally, as part of the normal time he’s spent in the service, when not deployed in the field, your character would have undergone constant training to bring his supplementary (not specialty skills) up to snuff.

Therefore, you would be proficient with the three main types of combat/weapons: close quarters battle (unarmed combat, pistol, sub-machine gun, shotgun, breaching, and room clearing), infantry combat (assault riffle, grenade launcher, light machine gun, and mortar), and long combat (sniper rifle and fire direction). Reconnaissance, infiltration, maneuver and escape. Survival and basic first aid and demolitions. Tactical communication (and now, that things have changed because of shortages to something that the various operator groups have been arguing for a long time, Forward Air Control as well), and general operational security for insurgency and counter insurgency. And language skills and cultural skills, etc…

I don’t mean to belabor the point by going on and on. What I think you should do is a little research and put together a skills list (a lot of this you can get on the various Army Web sites). And then talk to your GM about the character you want to play/the story you want to be part of. And then adjust the character creation process to make it work for you and the rest of the party (or play a different type of character).

AFE

FlakJacket

May 5 2009, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (Anythingforenoughnuyen @ May 5 2009, 09:41 PM)

Please keep in mind that you can not enlist in the Army and go directly to Special Forces school (any longer, I know that this was not the strict rule in the past). Prior service with other units is required. In practical terms this usually means service with an infantry (e.g. 10th mountain) or airborne (e.g. 101st) and/or Ranger School/a hitch with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

Really? Granted I know fairly little about how the US military operates except through friends that have been in and from a quick two minute search of the internet on this but I thought programs like the SEAL Challenge contract, the Option 40 contract or the 18X Special Forces enlistment program the whole point of which was allowing you to try out for the SEALs, Rangers or Green Beret respectively straight out of basic training? Now granted you've got to pass the course and if you fail you seem to get shunted sideways into a regular unit but it looks as though you can try for them almost straight away.

Writer

May 5 2009, 10:23 PM

Something to keep in mind is that corporate armies probably won't operate the same way as today's government services. Maybe the corporate military that you enlisted with hand picks troops for specific roles in their special forces. They could easily bypass broad training and go for specializations. It may not be the best training, but if accountants are deciding the training, rather than experienced veterans, you can come up with limited skill sets. An accountant might not think pistol training is worth the effort for a sniper. Or a demolitions man would only need Longarms (Shotguns) and Pistols training for some reason. While we can argue what skill sets actual Green Berets have, future corporate types don't always think in terms of field operations, but in board room operations. I would say, go with what you want. Maybe the reason you left the corporate military is because of the poor training. You made too many requests about cross training and they figured you were just too expensive to keep. So, they send you on an expendable mission, and somehow you survived. They wrote you off as dead, but here you are in the shadows.

Fix-it

May 5 2009, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (FlakJacket @ May 5 2009, 03:32 PM)

Really? Granted I know fairly little about how the US military operates except through friends that have been in and from a quick two minute search of the internet on this but I thought programs like the SEAL Challenge contract, the Option 40 contract or the 18X Special Forces enlistment program the whole point of which was allowing you to try out for the SEALs, Rangers or Green Beret respectively straight out of basic training? Now granted you've got to pass the course and if you fail you seem to get shunted sideways into a regular unit but it looks as though you can try for them almost straight away.

SEALs are different, as we've already established. BUDS weeds out all those who are not mature and crazy enough to be a functional member of a team.

to use a metaphor;
the Navy and army use two different methods to cook up their SF units. the Navy turns up the heat for a short period of time, while the Army lets them simmer for longer.

18x is definitely no longer available. the amount of people who signed up for it VS the amount who graduated didn't justify giving them slots in SFAS.

plus, in order to go through that pipeline, you basically got insta-promoted to E-4, which didn't sit well with those who actually earned it.

the "Quickest" way into SOCOM is supposedly Air Force Para-Rescue. but it won't be any easier than any of the other options.

kzt

May 5 2009, 11:42 PM

Lots of wanta-SEALs get weeded up in the pre-BUDS training too. Then they continue to weed them out during the next several months of training. You don't get the Trident until you get done with all the post BUDS training iirc.

PJ school is supposed to be about as difficult to get through as BUDS. Rangers is the easiest, though it isn't a cakewalk either to be successful in a battalion. Ranger school is a bear according to the various people I know who did it, but you don't normally go there up front.

Essentially SEALs, and PJs want all guys who could be varsity athletes at a division one school, are completely unable to ever give up, won't let their group down and also are significantly brighter then the average bear. SF seems to not be so hugely focused on physical condition (though it's still very, very important) but also have the ability to learn languages as well as teach and work effectively with crazy people.

wylie

May 6 2009, 02:28 AM

i was just thinking we may be looking at this build the wrong way.
apparently several of us here do have military experience, and seem to be thinking about the combat side of the job

now I agree spanish instead of arabic

and I like the comment about a good mind & plan better then a panther cannon

now I am done rambling...
why not think of this Former GB as a military advisor like the ones who helped train the Vietnam soldiers
need a good social set of skills to teach
good combat skill set to prove his training
and survival skills, both survival itself and dodge to get behind that tree

depending on what skills you finally choose, longarms (Shotguns) may be a good one. seems the North VietCon hated the guy with the shotgun
good perception
good people skills (as in you try not piss off the people you are trying help)
Knowledge about tactics and current events in area serving/ may be serving in

several movies come to mind that may help your thinking:
Good Morning Vietnam--Robin Williams befriends a kid who turns out to work for the north & saves Robins butt couple times
Glory--Matt Boderick training the black union soldiers for the horrors of war
We were Soldiers--real life story, played by Mel Gibson, of the creation of the modern Army AirCav
Last Samurai--Tom Cruise training the Japanese in modern warfare, before his capture

inflitraion & shadowing may be handy, if you end leaning towards the guys in Somalia, aka Black Hawk Down (I would love to use some of the 1st aid scenes for training people but they won't let me)

another help (and I just spent an hour trying to find the link) was a website that had shadowrun military writeups. not sure which ED.
but I did find:
http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/note.htm
http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/Shadowrun/specfor/index.html

hope those help some

The Jake

May 6 2009, 04:44 AM

QUOTE (Anythingforenoughnuyen @ May 5 2009, 09:41 PM)

I don’t mean to belabor the point by going on and on. What I think you should do is a little research and put together a skills list (a lot of this you can get on the various Army Web sites). And then talk to your GM about the character you want to play/the story you want to be part of. And then adjust the character creation process to make it work for you and the rest of the party (or play a different type of character).

AFE

I did this once for an SF type character. My skill list worked to be about over 12+ Active skills. This was more for a groundpounder/grunt too - not a specialist.

To do it any justice you wind up with next to zero cash for starting gear and minimalist cyberware, if any. I realise that having those skills would be more important but when you consider how much time/energy the armed forces spend training these guys, it is hard to reconcile that they wouldn't have some cyber/bioware and perhaps the odd cutting edge implant.

- J.