Exactly why i researched a bit and made a list of things we should say and use instead of the RL counterparts.
Ebay --> The Bazaar
Livejournal/Wordpress (Blogs), Facebook, Youtube & Co --> Connections! or MetaMatrix
Wikipedia --> Data Havens fit that role

Its only roughly the same stuff, but yes, it should be emphasized that the Shadowrun world didn't run another course than our world since 2011 but much earlier (earliest would be '99, the Shiawase incident, but i know that some things come earlier)

So while the Matrix is similar to the internet, it is not the same and it works different, so it doesn't need that much suspension of disbelief as many think.

'91. The USSR (the real one) broke up. In SR canon that doesn't happen until 2030.

Of course, in 1991, the internet as we know it didn't quite exist, as the World Wide Web was officially founded on August the 6th (the USSR broke up in December). 1993 saw the rise of AOL and the utter degradation of the online world (see: Eternal September). The World Wide Web Consortium was founded in October 1994, which is the organization that sets the standards of web protocol. However, it took until 1997 for the developed world to reach 11 internet users per 100 residents.

So while in SR canon the W3 could have been killed off in its infancy (the WWW and the internet are not one and the same! The W3 runs on top of the internet!), I don't see why it would have been a threat. It was used to store and navigate information about research projects among universities, initially. Yahoo! started as a yellow pages of the internet, it was merely a collection of links to other places organized (by hand!) by category, no searching what so ever.

Good:

Hacking is dramatically easier to integrate with real world events than decking ever was. As someone who used to feel bad about playing a time-hogging decker, this is fantastic.

The huge reduction in cost of electronics between SR4 and previous editions is also amazingly cool. (I lost a tricked out cyberdeck in a SR2 game and ended up becoming a rigger because it was cheaper and faster than trying to re-buy or re-build the deck.)

General accessibility of the matrix is a good thing, overall. I do miss needing to physically jack into systems though.

Bad:

Technomancers rely too much on sprites. Sure, you can play a TM without sprites, but you're kneecapping yourself so bad it isn't even funny. (I have a similar complaint about the power of Spirits in this edition, but that's for another thread.)

I consider it a very low priority issue, but the Skill + Program roll seems to bother a lot of people.

Encryption is funky. Its be nice if there some some sort of progressive time interval with it. Like, your first test takes 1 Combat Turn, the second test takes 1 Minute, etc.

There needs to be a clearer distinction between Riggers and Hackers.

-paws

Ain't that the truth. I tried to play a game with a TM that didn't know he was a TM and had lost himself in the matrix (mind that the original concept was for a space opera game with AIs taking over...well...everything and the team didn't have a hacker of any kind). Given the background and history of the character I neglected (de)compiling, threading, and Stealth ("run away from the AI! Run away!").

Guess what?

Completely and utterly unplayable. Flat out, down right, worthless.

This is something I don't know if I agree with in practice. Being from the school of old, I agree in theory. The issue is
Is there enough game to go around?

We can fit hacker/riggers in at my table every session. They get to fully contribute. Both of them, the difference at our table being that Riggers have more points in pilot skills. However, there may be many tables that can't fit that much into their game.

BlueMax

Except that it is presented as similar, but it isn't. This isn't a helpful level of similarity. It means the more you know about the internet and computers the more crazy the rules are. You can't say "it works like blah in Real life", because it doesn't. And you are typically without anything in RL to show to someone to show how it works, because it's mostly so darned stupid that nobody would actually do that. And if you do read the rules and figure out how it works nobody who hasn't spent two weeks parsing the text and resolving the various inconsistencies will believe you when you tell them how the rules work, because they are just too darn stupid to be believed.

I feel better now.

I would say it depends on what level of detail one compare it on.

For someone that see the home pc as a magic box that spits out all kinds of stuff one want, and a lot one do not, a general comparison between services provided should work fine.

But get someone with knowledge in tcp/ip, html, and all the other itty bitty details then yes it falls flat as the person attempts to apply real life knowledge to the game and ends up frustrating both himself and the group he plays with.

That depends as much on player wants then as anything else.

While it may not be clearly spelled out, from what i gather the TM look upon sprites as his or her little matrix friends and companions.

Approach TM's like a pokemon game and it may make more sense. Your not just patching together some random paladin sprite, its the same sprite over and over. Its not a tool your commanding, its a friend your asking for help.

Once again tying sprites to spirits, as many mages I know name their commonly summoned spirits.

BlueMax

I don't mind that sprites exist. They're interesting, in concept, and add a bit of flavor to the TMs. However...

I do mind that TMs who choose not to use them are severely handicapping themselves. High rating sprites can do quite a lot of a TM's work for him, from combat to information gathering to hacking. Skipping on sprites is like a street samurai without a reflex boost or, perhaps more accurately, a full magician who can't or won't summon spirits.



That's fair, I suppose. Not every table will be able to cover all the roles with specialists. But with those roles so easily absorbed by other characters, why even bother to mention them as distinct specialists? Anyone with some skills and a solid 'link can hack. Any one with some skills and a high reaction can rig. They might not get buckets of dice, but they can still perform the role well enough in most situations.

Anecdote:


-paws

Paws,
I wish there were levels of VCR, like the olden days. And I wish that mortals weren't so easily outdone by godlike TMs after a = echos.

BlueMax
/its my fault
// I told them to play TMs

Doesn't that exactly match the "more you know about computers, the less the matrix makes sense" thing we've posted like 4 times now?

Or did I miss something?

The Matrix suffers from the inherent problem of the fuzziness of the interface between the Matrix and the Real World.

Contrast with the Magic and Mundane interface. In Magic and Mundane there is a barrier between Astral Space and Mundane space that you shall not cross except in unusual circumstances. Be an Awakened. Pay your 15 BP, and you get move in this other world. The interactions in one world or another with magic are clearly defined by Spells and Powers. Pure mechanics.

Now look at the Matrix. You have Matric devices that interact with everyone through speakers, vid screens and sensors, AR modes, VR Modes, and DNI, all of which offer options and limitations to interact with the Matrix. Then you have interaction within the Matrix, sprites, personas, icons, and whatever else. It's all a big fuzzy mess.

A high level model for design consistency for all the elements to fit into would be very useful to assist people in resolving all those situations that are bound to turn up that aren't covered by specific rules.

e.g.

RW <--> Matrix
Meat IP <--> Device (Typing on keyboard, oral commands etc)
AR <--> Device (Simsense)
DNI <--> Device (Implanted Cyberware)
VR <--> Matrix (Simsense+)

Matrix <--> Matrix (Hacker excel at this area)
Data Search
Cybercombat
IC
When no program or software applies, use Computer Skill + Logic, or a way to "Program on the Fly"

Matrix <--> RW (Rigger excel in this area)
Command Program is used to make any device that is made to act in the RW work.
Black IC
ECCM
When no program or software applies use Hardware Skill + Logic

And not least, possibly

RW <--> RW
Scan
ECM/ECCM
Sniffer


And then you always need concrete examples of common expected tasks.

How do I hack Cyberware/Device to turn it off|fool it|do something else nasty.
How do I defend my cyberware/Device
How do Perception tests work and what can I see in RW <--> Matrix, Matrix <--> Matrix, Matrix <--> RW
How do I damage RW or Matrix items?
How do I fix RW and Matrix items?

Welcome to the Matrix, I am agent Smith.

There are too many Skills. The Matrix is supposedly everywhere, your average joe schmo has a fairly sophisticated (to us) knowledge of the wireless world, yet there are 8 skills involved in the process, and most archetypes ignore them completely. They should be condensed, so that everyone has the ability to do decent Matrix actions by picking up one or two skills. That would eliminate a good deal of the "well, they're not as time consuming as deckers, but it's still something they do on their own" problem and make it easier for hackers to take on other roles (and other roles to take on hacking).

Electronic Warfare only does a few useful things. You use it to find nodes, and discover wireless signals, and decrypt. It should be folded into Hacking.

Having a specific skill for finding information (Data Search) is kind of silly. It should be under Computer. If you understand how to code and how commands work, then you should understand how to to conduct a search online.

Software is either useless or powerful, depending if you are a Hacker or a TM. The coding times for programs are insane, and I'm not sure what else a Hacker needs Software for: in the future, we are all script kiddies. TM's, OTOH, abuse the hell out this skill. Drop Software and make it a TM only skill with a more appropriate name (Scripting?). Programming is now under the Computer skill.

Rigging is a mess. Drop the Remote Control mechanic altogether (along with the Command program). Remote Operations are now just a simple action done either with authority (from a hacked node) or spoofed. The device uses its own dicepool.

Computer and Hacking are now more powerful skills, but dedicated hackers still have their niche in the form of Nuyen spent to be good at what they do and the Cybercombat skill. Other archetypes now have the ability to be decent at wireless actions for far less of a resource outlay, bringing the matrix to everyone. TM's are now a little less crucified to build using BP. Riggers are no longer confused on what their dicepool is. Everyone has a reason to take at least a little bit of the Computer skill, which is how it should be.

Amen to that one. I've never made a character who had Sotfware, there just aren't enough uses for it, and there aren't enough BP to take it. There are certain other uses in Unwired, like patching your pirated progs and stuff, but IMO that's all one big waste of time, a layer of detail we didn't need. But I think it's a problem that comes out in more than just hacking -- it seems to happen whenever they make more books. For instance, magic. It wasn't enough that they had to learn spellcasting, counterspelling, ritual spellcasting, summoning, binding, and banishing. They had to go ahead and add Enchanting and Arcana. Those could have been subsets of other skills, like ritual spellcasting (it would have made ritual spellcasting useful for a change) but instead they added on two more skills that no mage would ever have points to take. The one positive thing for hackers though, is that if you make a pure hacker you have more than enough BP to take software and hardware. It's a lot of skills, but as long as you don't have a dual specialty you've got nowhere else to put the points.



Can't say I get this one. It's sort of more than we need, I guess, but it mirrors how you can hack via AR or VR. If you can hack via AR, why not rig that way? You're controlling the drone with your own skills + the power and effectiveness of your Command program. Seems ok to me...



I don't know if I agree with a general condensing. Everyone can perform matrix actions just fine by grabbing an agent and all the common use programs, doesn't cost very much at all. And basic matrix actions, like searching basic data that anyone could find (i.e. google) don't really require a roll, since nobody could fail unless they're Untrained (i.e. they took the Uneducated flaw). Just like you don't need a test to drive down the highway, or merge during heavy traffic. You can do quite a bit without a roll, the fact that you don't have a skill trained doesn't mean you can never use the skill.

Yes, there are 8 skills, but only 2 skillgroups. 10 BP gets you a 1 in Computers (I think it's called; the legal one), and see again about how there is no roll required for everyday things. You only need a skill when you need to do things out of the ordinary.

It should be noted that as of Unwired all commlinks (either the link itself or the OS) come with a built-in R1 Browse program (comparable to Internet Explorer). Not to mention all the freeware available (comparable to Mozzila or the other free browsers).

I also like the Princess Bride reference in the thread name.

Yeah, when I first picked up SR4 and saw the VCR had been condensed into a single .5 Ess item, I thought it was a good idea. But now that I have some experience with the system, I'm on the fence about whether or not it was a bad move.



I lol'd. I really did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-paws

Passcode system has always seemed abit odd to me. Almost seems to work backwords with more powerful systems taking longer to check for intruders and admin access being able to change logs to avoid it entirely. (This is one case were leaving security tally optional rule would fit nicely.)

Program ratings, with Technomancers able to boost there ratings above hacker max fairly easily I always thought hackers should have better access then that described in Unwired.

Edit: On the other side this has been the most playable version of the matrix rules in last 4 editions and we've had more hacker/technomancers then in any past edition at the table. The only drawback being the team seems to just sit back and let the matrix guy do all legwork due to his near infinite access to resources in AR.

I suppose I just don't understand, from a fluff perspective, how it's supposed to work. You want a drone to fire a gun; instead of giving it a command to do so, you instead use a special program interface and manually input information and require the drone to follow that: trajectory calculations and range computations. Somehow, by doing this manually, you also make the drone act faster than it normally would. After the fight, you want to remotely operate a medkit. Instead of using the interface from inside the medkit's node, you use the exact same program interface you used with your drone, and manually input the information for the medkit to use: dosage levels and where to cut, what to bandage, and what to ignore. Later, you need to bring your van to your location in a hurry, but there's nasty traffic in the way. You pull up your trusty program interface, and manually input how the van is supposed to drive: velocity, when to brake, when to swerve, and when to reverse. You've used one program to do all of this, and at lightening speeds. So the command program is a virtual C:\ prompt that works with every single device?



Yes, but grabbing an agent penalizes the people who didn't understand the Matrix chapter in the first place to realize that "Hey! I don't need to sink a bunch of bp just to be able to do legwork! I can get an Agent to do that nearly as well and for much cheaper! Yay for saving BP!" or "Hey! I can get an Agent to scan for nodes! I save an action!" The idea is to make the whole thing more intuitive - if you want to do legal things with the matrix, it's the Computer skill. Illicit things are Hacking. Matrix Combat is Cybercombat. Manual interaction is Hardware.

So much for avoiding topic drift. Yer all puds. =i)

I hear folks wondering why programs replace attributes in the Matrix. There are, of course, fluff reasons given on page naked blue elf¹ in WWLOMTRAPT.² Personally, I think the real reason is for better integration of Matrix specialists into a team. The fact that you just need a program rather than an attribute means that it's that much easier to be a samurai/hacker or an infiltrator/hacker or a magician/hacker. Shadowrunners go a lot of places, and there are a lot more places with no Matrix than there are with no magic or no fighting.

And since my data's getting corrupted with all the drift, let me ask another question that will help me clarify the data I've gleaned so far. Of those who find the Matrix rules confusing, how many are basing this feeling off of a reading of SR4 alone, how many off a reading of SR4A alone, and how many off of a reading of both?

¹p. 226.
²SR4A, if you haven't heard.

No, I don't think you manually input trajectory equations. It's more like you use your own skills to control a drone. Like say you were doing Gunnery. You aim and fire the turret just as if you were doing it manually, except you're doing it with an AR remote control -- a virtual joystick? A virtual touchpad? Whatever you want. The point is, it's like having an RC truck or car, but with much more complex controls.



A drone's speed is not limited first and foremost by how fast its servos go. It is limited by how fast its computer can react to situations and decide how best to follow orders. If you pilot the drone on manual, that's out of the equation. Now, it acts just as fast as you input commands.



You could use the medkit's interface if you wanted, but it also requires hands to do what it says. Subscribe to the medkit's node, bring it up in a window in your link. The medkit gives advice on what to do, and you manually manipulate the drone's arms to do it. Your own first aid skills are important, because it helps you know where to stick the needles, how to wrap a good bandage, and all that stuff that you're doing with the drone's arms.



No, you don't just send general instructions through Command. That's not the remote control feature, that's the captain's chair. If you give commands to the drone and tell it to act on its own, then it uses its Pilot rating, not your skills. With Command, you take hold of the virtual wheel, push the virtual pedals, and drive the van through boring traffic just as if you were sitting in it.

The Command program is universal because it links electronic functions to virtual controls. A good command program has an intuitive interface which gives you fine control over throttle, steering, weapons, and all of that. It's like a radio transmitter pad you'd use for an RC car, but it's infinitely more complicated, and also virtual.




So you're saying basically to fold Data Search and Software into Computer. I think that would probably make sense. I don't think it's absolutely required, because again, agents can do all that grunt work. I'm not sure what's unintuitive about Agents. It's like if you did your computing through the paper clip guy on MS Office, only if the paper clip wasn't stupid and worthless, but actually just did whatever you typed into that little box with no fuss.

As oneof theh old outs against 4th ed (and gee laready they want you to buy new books? 4.0 is already passee?) I really do like the new hacking rules introduced in 4th ed. decking has always been a problem in SR from day one. The fact that it was so involved that the rest of the players could go out for pizza while the decker ran his or her little demi adventure. It was so bad our house rules banned deckers, they were all NPC's.

The new system is soo much fasdter and cleaner. It also seems rather more like the system from Ghost in the Shell instead of Tron.

Overall it is faster, cleaner and cheaper to deck now...oops sorry hack. For rule books I'll wait for 5th ed before I buy in. that should be march of 2010 the way they're going now.

That raises the question of how using Command is better than just sitting behind the wheel.

Is it though?

Though I guess that you Could program a rating 7+ Command Program... Of course, you lose out on your high rating Reaction in that case, substituting in your Program Rating... could be a wash, but probably not...