I'm looking for a giant list of Good Things and Bad Things about the Matrix in SR4 and SR4A. Specific items only, please; neither propaganda or whining will be useful to me (make your own topic if you feel so inclined). Also, please just talk about the rules as written; house rules are also unhelpful. All I'm looking for is a specific rule or set of rules along with what it is about that rule or set of rules that you like or dislike (e.g. it's elegant, you like rolling that many dice, it's too complex, you don't understand it, etc.).

This is me doing research for my own project. It's not affiliated in any way with CGL or any of the devs.

Thanks.

For SR4 rules, that it's script kiddies and agents all the way. (Don't have 4A)

In terms of overall feel, I hate that the more you understand about how computers, cryptography and network security work the harder it is to comprehend what they are trying to do with the rules and the more the rules seem stupid and counterproductive when you do understand them.

The way encryption is used in SR is totally backwards. File encryption seems to be the only thing that the designers ever thought about when they considered encryption. And then they do it in a silly way. Nobody carries around a 300 page book of passwords, it's all done by the OS. Once you own the box you own the files whether they are encrypted or not.

QFT.

Like, who owns their own Browse program? It's either part of the OS (file searching) or on the internet (Google).

Im pretty much with kzt here. The more you know about computers, system architecture, and programming in general, the LESS sense the Sr decking/hacking rules make.

That's true of every sub-system in Shadowrun.

I have always encouraged having a Decker/Hacker in my game, and have had the most success in having players fill that role in 4th ed. Here is a couple of observations I have:
1. I don't really care about the realism, and neither do my players. One of my players is a professional hacker in real life (Sorry Security Analyst) and two of the others are fairly immersed in aspects of system architecture and security as they work for a large payroll company, and they never gripe to me about the "silliness" of it all. (I mean come on, we are talking about a game here, one with elves and dragons, right?)
2. The rules (especially after Unwired came out) are comprehensive enough to allow a wide array of scenerios for me as a GM that each and every hack is somewhat unique for my hackers, so I really like that.
3. I feel that for new GM's (especially ones that don't have a background in other editions) the lack of "clear" explanations and good sample hacking scripts can make for very frustrating gaming as they fumble through rule books when the hacker is let loose. I would say that even for a vet like myself I find myself reading something and re thinking how I should set things up in a node or run things during a hack.
4. I will say that integrating the Matrix action with the rest of the players has worked really well, but a challenging hack can still be time consuming, but not nearly as much as before.
5. Overall I have not ran across a rule that I hated, except for the "Hard Encryption" rules and it's merely a game thing for me. For hackers to be challenged in an exciting way, on the fly is where it's at, and if they have to spend hours decrypting the node it sort of defeats the purpose of that, especially as the (optional) rule as written does not really give any limitation on what sort of minimum hardware requirements would be required.
In Short
Good: Overall rules, explanation of wireless world and its prevalence.
Bad: Implementation left up to too much interpretation, resulting in confusion for some, and the lack of shared challenge and experience.

Once again, I'm asking for specifics, please. Kindly save the generalities and the me-toos for a thread with a poll. I'd like to avoid topic drift. Thanks. =i)

Specifically, I like how the rules are simple. Hackers can be incredibly useful to a team without sucking up all the game time. I also like how the costs of computers and programs make more sense -- in SR3, a cyberdeck and a full suite of progs could eat up a million yen, and a powerful server? 30 million. Not even a supercomputer, just a regular host. In SR4, you can afford to be a hacker and also have other gear, i.e. be useful outside the matrix and play with everyone else.

What I don't like is how the rules are vague. For instance, when you do a Trace, do you leave your access ID fingerprint all over everything as you follow the other user's datatrail? It never says. You have to infer it from the fact that it never says you do leave that fingerprint. Now, that's pretty much a drawback of streamlined rules -- in order for them to be short and sweet, the rules avoid trying to specify what doesn't happen, it's the epitome of a permissive ruleset, which can make it confusing when your minds strays out of the permissive ruleset box.

As far as the realism goes, I couldn't care less. The purpose of the rules is to be fast and useful. The rules allow a hacker to penetrate almost anything, given enough time, but still give the GM plenty of tricks to make it difficult if they choose to.

I think one of the things that really bugged me was that you could read all the text you wanted to on the Matrix, but if you wanted to save it you had to spend time downloading it.
Or even weirder: that the simsense data is trivially small compared to the amount of data in an eBook.

The subscription limit seems like a clumsy and artificial attempt to limit the amount of drones and agents. Or maybe it's a leftover from the previous editions. I don't really see the purpose of this rule, it just makes everything more complicated than it should. If a rigger has enough nuyen for 1000 drones, then let him connect to all those drones with his one commlink.

The fact that agents that are on their own cannot connect to a node like a hacker does, i.e. without "moving" to that node and consume its resources and be limited by its matrix ratings. Again, it seems like the wrong way to limit agents and leads to weird attempts to circumvent this limitation.

I'm in IT Security. Yep the rules are silly but so are Van Damme films. I don't decry those as being unrealistic either. I just laugh and go along with it.

- J.

My main character is a Technomancer good ONLY for hacking so I study the matrix rules a good bit. I'm also in IT Security IRL.
Overall I think the rules are solid and have some counterintuitive points (listed below) as well as a sad use of presentation (and not instruction!) on how it works. The latter is what a radically unique system needs in order to be comprehended by a player with average enthusiasm. Since most GM's in my experience DON'T love the hacking rules this need to instruct those with little-to-moderate motivation majorly impacts matrix comprehension and thus matrix-viability. These points are expanded on below:

=====
GOOD THINGS
Subscriptions are an effective limiter and simple to verify

Hackers and Technomancers complement each better than doubling up on one or the other

The common use and hacking programs make sense. With the SR4A changes even moreso.

Exploiting into a node is straightforward


=====
BAD THINGS [or "How to make it more intuitive"]
Common use programs should be listed as they are now, and considered to be on ALL commlinks as part of the commlink cost. This is a slightly "Apple" way of looking at things but in my mind more intuitive than "You cant Google without buying a program."

Learning curve! Walkthrough needed! The matrix should be approached like chargen. In chargen you build up your character in delineated stages. The matrix would use much more page-space with lengthy walkthroughs but folks need it! GM's need it so they can understand a part of the game they potentially aren't interested in and players need it so they can evaluate if they wish to play a hacker.

The choice of what to do when hacking doesn't strike me as getting equal coverage. Exploit is well defined, cybercombat is well defined, but uh... sniffing a transmission, spoofing an access id, disarming a firewall, nuking a node [as in the program] these are all equally potent tactics that few consider when they ask themselves "Do I think a hacker would be fun to play"

I think that programs don't come included because you don't actually need them. Simple tasks do not require a roll -- surfing the net to find a trid starlet's home page, for instance, is something that everyone can do, whether they have 1 Computer/data search or none. It's just like driving, people who lack the Pilot Ground Craft skill can still drive, they just get into big trouble when they have to avoid crashing. Same with computers -- your commlink has a browser and a word processor and everything right out of the box, and you can do easy things even if you have no actual skills. The programs you buy aren't just everyday consumer things, they're powerful commercial level applications. Browse isn't just google, Browse is a semantic data crawler that's sensitive to context, and can connect the dots between related information in ways that google can't. And Edit isn't just video editing software, you can use it to literally add or delete people from a high res video sim. We're not talking Apple iLife, we're talking about the professional grade stuff (at least at higher ratings, anyway).

But I definitely agree that a walkthrough would help a ton. The matrix section is short and sweet, but it takes a lot of effort to figure out how to be a hacker. Unwired provides some good general overview, but a lengthy example where the mechanics are actually used to explain the system would be very useful.

Actually, it's written down somewhere, or possibly from a dev's mouth, that you can't do anything on the matrix without the program/Complex Form. NOTHING.

I'm willing to ignore the unrealistic aspect of hacking for a better gaming experience. What drives me nuts are the internal inconsistencies and logical weaknesses in the system. I really think the designers need to acquire two or three powergamers to use their twinking powers for good by highlighting systemic issues long before the play test phase.


GOOD:
doesn't have the old CPU/SPU/SAN schema

Doesn't require a ton of skills to set up decently secured PAN

The wireless network is very useful and the imagery is something most players can understand

Hacking cyberware (like in Ghost in the Shell) is both cool and useful




BAD:
doesn't follow the normal stat+skill+gear or stat+skill capped by rating mechanisms.

Many devices/programs don't get any advantage from skills (e.g. ECM/jammers, ECCM)

Signal ranges are incredibly short and not internally consistent (cheap comms have signal 2 but a cell tower has signal 5)

Too many devices have pathetic defenses while being always online, mainly cyberware

Standard vehicle AIs are nearly incompetent with most vehicles rolling 1 or 2 dice, which are likely to have accidents.

The "Sensor" stat of drones reflects both the quality of the sensing devices as well as the AI's perceptive abilities but the only way to upgrade the system is to replace the sensing devices. Plus the Sensor stat is used by drones for Gunnery, which is otherwise an Agility-based skill.

I'm surprised no one's gotten into Otaku yet.

The very best starting ones are roughly equal to a middling decker. In fact, there's almost nothing they can do that a decker can't do better. The exception here are sprites, who are effectively cooler than their summoners.

Generally, otaku make for inferior deckers, until they sink enough karma into Submersions and learn the Echoes they need to become overpowering.

I second Cain here as a bad point.

But the good points are, in 4A at least, that the Matrix chapter is understandable and easy to read. You get a idea of how a hacker should work and can work out the specific points yourselves (Spoofing a device is an alternate way to start hacking a node and there are more to gain access)

I like the feel of the technomancers

Like the setup of the wireless matrix, i can understand it and use it and think of similar setups in real life.

----

Now some bad Points

Technomancers feel, streamlining aside, a bit too magey for me.

Sensor rules are a too unintuitive to calculate

Software Treshholds are a joke. They should be lower so no hacker is forced to be a Script Kiddie because he spends months to program his own software.

Thing is that with the ability to use programs and agents stored on a different node, it could very well be that google of SR4 runs a big nexi where people can log in with their response 1 comlink and have the resident search agent, or just the browse program and their own finely honed skill, pull up likely things to look at.

That in combo with the data request connection introduced in unwired allows for a very every day type usage scenario for rating 1 comlinks.

Or maybe the MSP provides access to search agents of their own?

My take on the matrix rules is that there are not enough hard examples. And i fear that even a book the thickness of the SR4 BBB, housing only examples of every day and hacker level matrix use, would be enough. Basically, its the third rewrite of the rules in as many editions...

The newer rules are ten times better than the versions before it now that you don't need a separate session for matrix activities.

As for how it runs, I guess we're new to 4th ed and still trying to find our feet in a lot of ways, I like my hacker and I think I threw it together very well for that purpose of being the primary info finder, matrix security and busting into all things with a network connection. But its kind of frustrating at the same time to have to keep track of how much is running out of the comlink, everything needs to have something running before you can begin an action and its a little complicated.

I'm sort of getting to the point where I think life would be much easier just being the grunt or magical unit in the group, they see something, they blow it up and life's fairly easy for them and much less dice hurling and note keeping involved. They seem to throw out 8-9 dice and get some kind of acceptable result with 3-4 hits, any time I go to hack something it always seems to have firewall out the arse on even the most mediocre targets and an extended action that needs 27 hits to achieve some kind of control... (maybe that's us though) and I've all but given up hacking on the fly for that reason.

Kind of glad we're not doing software degradation at the moment, to keep my two dozen current programs to-spec it would take years and by the time you started re-writing, they'd literally be years out of date, most app devs I'm used to working with tend to come back to me in a matter of hours with a bug fix or upgrade and maybe a week or so for a new program that's been completely overhauled... and thats just tapping away on a keyboard.

Think if the hacker gets ganked, which is eminently possible as it cant fight worth a damn I'll punish them with a banshee phys-ad that can punch holes in tanks...

No reason to make them any more powerful. As you stated, the sprites are already bad azz.
From my experience of having three TMs in a group, sprites need to be toned down long before TMs are beefed up. On their own, they each are meh. Compile a few sprites and they can do anything.

BlueMax

I like the current rules just fine for "solo runs" involving hacking. In group play, I usually just condense them down to a few single rolls to just speed things up.

I don´t have SR4A so far. I´m also a bit unsure about the detail level you want.

Good

• Everything is accessible via the matrix and can be hacked, individual hacking attempts can be resolved fast if you know a few rules.
• The device rating. One single node stat can do everything, while optional detail is available.
• True matrix security is active -> There is action in dangerous systems, instead of unreachable target numbers.
• Spoof is great. Everyone can help with the required legwork, and it is fast enough to be used in combat. (Yes, I noticed that hacking is faster now, too.)
• Technomancers. The GF plays one, the fantasy-approach to the matrix works tons better for her than the "technical" hacker approach.

Bad

• The exploit mechanic has too many contributing factors for what it does with them. It can also be pretty arbitrarily influenced by the owner of the target node - account types setup and analyse are important decisions.
• I´m a bit undecided if I like the complexity offered by individual programs. It is a fun part of the game for any hacker characters, yet any completed setup tends to be reducible to a single program rating used for almost all tests. The results of my groups matrix introduction project suggest that simple is better, as everyone being able to follow grants more room for matrix action.
• Technomancer balance
  
  • Resonance does too much for tasking to be used as a limit for both living node stats and complex forms. A carrot/stick combo like this leads to minmaxing.
  • Support Operation services. Given how important program ratings are, these make CFs too good compared to programs (Stealth/Attack come to mind). The aid spell mechanic could have been used instead. Apart from the beauty of streamlined mechanics, it would be easier to keep TMs and hackers on the same level of effectiveness.
• Command device/jumping in and Command/Pilot. Pilot should, as device-specific OS, come with all required control modules, and jumping in is IMO not sufficiently distinct from VR command device to justify two sets of rules.

Lots of stuff I'm sure, I'll post back later....

The first thing that springs to mind that I don't like is dynamic encryption. The caveat that you have to be aware of the decryption attempt seems crazed.

It's only realistic use is encrypting signals traffic, anything else would use strong encryption, and I can't think of any way you would ever be 'aware' of someone attempting to decrypt your signal.

Which gets me to another thing, Intercept Wireless Traffic, you can't perform this action until you have decrypted the signal which is completely topsy turvy. There shouldn't be any reason you can't intercept encrypted signals. You can't make any sense of them until they are decrypted but you should always be able to record them and decrypt them at your leisure.

In SR4 (I don't know about SR4A but it seems like it was rewritten a lot better) the hacking rules are, at first glance, simple and efficient with the only problem being that they don't use the same mechanics (skill+program instead of attribute+skill which means that the attributes are nearly useless and the defaulting mechanics a little difficult to deal with).

But once you start playing, it's a lot more difficult and you realize that there's a lot the rules don't explain. There are also a few important things that aren't in the SR4 BBB (for example you don't know if agents need to be loaded on a node to act on it on or if they can be loaded in one node and act in another). It's still possible to play the Matrix but you either don't go very far or develop your own rules and/or fluff.

Unwired clears things up and also adds a lot of details that are important if you want to go deeper. It has the side-effect of making the complete Matrix a bit complex but no more than the whole Magic rules and fluff are.

I'm currently playing with the SR4 rules+Unwired+a few houserules and it runs well with a player who knows the rules, what he's doing and what he can do. Both he and me have a heavy computer background (he's a sys-admin, I'm a mobile software engineer) but we don't have so many troubles with the rules or fluff. Sure there are a few odd things, but nothing that really bothers us and generally speaking there are a lot of concepts that are actually quite close to real world hacking.

The biggest issues I have with the Matrix rules is that they don't have a system to handle quick and dirty hacks. For example, if the hacker wants to quickly hack a camera he'll have to look for the node, hack an account inside it, which means at least 3 dice roll and probably a lot more and several IPs or even combat turns.
I'd also have liked it if they stressed a bit more the fact that the Matrix is not the Internet, that people born in a world with the Matrix aren't as clueless with computers as people born in a world without computers and so on.

Which reminds me.

More emphasis needs to be placed on the differences between SR canon and RL.

Having extensively perused all the Denver Nexus stuff recently it is apparent to me what a stark contrast there exists between what we are used to and the SR Matrix.

This needs to be more strongly emphasized in the main rulebook.

What your looking at right now never existed in SR canon. The internet and world wide web were still-born, murdered in the womb by the Corp's that saw it as a threat. No Google, no Yahoo, no Facebook or Twitter. No Freedom.

Net Neutrality? Never existed.

Wikipedia, Youtube? Dream on chummer.

So, yes Browse does make sense as a standalone program because there is no central repository like Google or Wikipedia to go to when you want information. Information is worth money, you can't just set a spider lose on the Matrix and cross-reference everything. Instead you pay software companies for access to their propriety 'Browse' database and for the software tools to search it effectively.

Trouble is that the history of the Matrix is spread around too many sourcebooks, most of which are out of print.

Exactly why i researched a bit and made a list of things we should say and use instead of the RL counterparts.
Ebay --> The Bazaar
Livejournal/Wordpress (Blogs), Facebook, Youtube & Co --> Connections! or MetaMatrix
Wikipedia --> Data Havens fit that role

Its only roughly the same stuff, but yes, it should be emphasized that the Shadowrun world didn't run another course than our world since 2011 but much earlier (earliest would be '99, the Shiawase incident, but i know that some things come earlier)

So while the Matrix is similar to the internet, it is not the same and it works different, so it doesn't need that much suspension of disbelief as many think.

'91. The USSR (the real one) broke up. In SR canon that doesn't happen until 2030.

Of course, in 1991, the internet as we know it didn't quite exist, as the World Wide Web was officially founded on August the 6th (the USSR broke up in December). 1993 saw the rise of AOL and the utter degradation of the online world (see: Eternal September). The World Wide Web Consortium was founded in October 1994, which is the organization that sets the standards of web protocol. However, it took until 1997 for the developed world to reach 11 internet users per 100 residents.

So while in SR canon the W3 could have been killed off in its infancy (the WWW and the internet are not one and the same! The W3 runs on top of the internet!), I don't see why it would have been a threat. It was used to store and navigate information about research projects among universities, initially. Yahoo! started as a yellow pages of the internet, it was merely a collection of links to other places organized (by hand!) by category, no searching what so ever.

Good:

Hacking is dramatically easier to integrate with real world events than decking ever was. As someone who used to feel bad about playing a time-hogging decker, this is fantastic.

The huge reduction in cost of electronics between SR4 and previous editions is also amazingly cool. (I lost a tricked out cyberdeck in a SR2 game and ended up becoming a rigger because it was cheaper and faster than trying to re-buy or re-build the deck.)

General accessibility of the matrix is a good thing, overall. I do miss needing to physically jack into systems though.

Bad:

Technomancers rely too much on sprites. Sure, you can play a TM without sprites, but you're kneecapping yourself so bad it isn't even funny. (I have a similar complaint about the power of Spirits in this edition, but that's for another thread.)

I consider it a very low priority issue, but the Skill + Program roll seems to bother a lot of people.

Encryption is funky. Its be nice if there some some sort of progressive time interval with it. Like, your first test takes 1 Combat Turn, the second test takes 1 Minute, etc.

There needs to be a clearer distinction between Riggers and Hackers.

-paws

Ain't that the truth. I tried to play a game with a TM that didn't know he was a TM and had lost himself in the matrix (mind that the original concept was for a space opera game with AIs taking over...well...everything and the team didn't have a hacker of any kind). Given the background and history of the character I neglected (de)compiling, threading, and Stealth ("run away from the AI! Run away!").

Guess what?

Completely and utterly unplayable. Flat out, down right, worthless.

This is something I don't know if I agree with in practice. Being from the school of old, I agree in theory. The issue is
Is there enough game to go around?

We can fit hacker/riggers in at my table every session. They get to fully contribute. Both of them, the difference at our table being that Riggers have more points in pilot skills. However, there may be many tables that can't fit that much into their game.

BlueMax

Except that it is presented as similar, but it isn't. This isn't a helpful level of similarity. It means the more you know about the internet and computers the more crazy the rules are. You can't say "it works like blah in Real life", because it doesn't. And you are typically without anything in RL to show to someone to show how it works, because it's mostly so darned stupid that nobody would actually do that. And if you do read the rules and figure out how it works nobody who hasn't spent two weeks parsing the text and resolving the various inconsistencies will believe you when you tell them how the rules work, because they are just too darn stupid to be believed.

I feel better now.

I would say it depends on what level of detail one compare it on.

For someone that see the home pc as a magic box that spits out all kinds of stuff one want, and a lot one do not, a general comparison between services provided should work fine.

But get someone with knowledge in tcp/ip, html, and all the other itty bitty details then yes it falls flat as the person attempts to apply real life knowledge to the game and ends up frustrating both himself and the group he plays with.

That depends as much on player wants then as anything else.

While it may not be clearly spelled out, from what i gather the TM look upon sprites as his or her little matrix friends and companions.

Approach TM's like a pokemon game and it may make more sense. Your not just patching together some random paladin sprite, its the same sprite over and over. Its not a tool your commanding, its a friend your asking for help.

Once again tying sprites to spirits, as many mages I know name their commonly summoned spirits.

BlueMax

I don't mind that sprites exist. They're interesting, in concept, and add a bit of flavor to the TMs. However...

I do mind that TMs who choose not to use them are severely handicapping themselves. High rating sprites can do quite a lot of a TM's work for him, from combat to information gathering to hacking. Skipping on sprites is like a street samurai without a reflex boost or, perhaps more accurately, a full magician who can't or won't summon spirits.



That's fair, I suppose. Not every table will be able to cover all the roles with specialists. But with those roles so easily absorbed by other characters, why even bother to mention them as distinct specialists? Anyone with some skills and a solid 'link can hack. Any one with some skills and a high reaction can rig. They might not get buckets of dice, but they can still perform the role well enough in most situations.

Anecdote:


-paws

Paws,
I wish there were levels of VCR, like the olden days. And I wish that mortals weren't so easily outdone by godlike TMs after a = echos.

BlueMax
/its my fault
// I told them to play TMs

Doesn't that exactly match the "more you know about computers, the less the matrix makes sense" thing we've posted like 4 times now?

Or did I miss something?

The Matrix suffers from the inherent problem of the fuzziness of the interface between the Matrix and the Real World.

Contrast with the Magic and Mundane interface. In Magic and Mundane there is a barrier between Astral Space and Mundane space that you shall not cross except in unusual circumstances. Be an Awakened. Pay your 15 BP, and you get move in this other world. The interactions in one world or another with magic are clearly defined by Spells and Powers. Pure mechanics.

Now look at the Matrix. You have Matric devices that interact with everyone through speakers, vid screens and sensors, AR modes, VR Modes, and DNI, all of which offer options and limitations to interact with the Matrix. Then you have interaction within the Matrix, sprites, personas, icons, and whatever else. It's all a big fuzzy mess.

A high level model for design consistency for all the elements to fit into would be very useful to assist people in resolving all those situations that are bound to turn up that aren't covered by specific rules.

e.g.

RW <--> Matrix
Meat IP <--> Device (Typing on keyboard, oral commands etc)
AR <--> Device (Simsense)
DNI <--> Device (Implanted Cyberware)
VR <--> Matrix (Simsense+)

Matrix <--> Matrix (Hacker excel at this area)
Data Search
Cybercombat
IC
When no program or software applies, use Computer Skill + Logic, or a way to "Program on the Fly"

Matrix <--> RW (Rigger excel in this area)
Command Program is used to make any device that is made to act in the RW work.
Black IC
ECCM
When no program or software applies use Hardware Skill + Logic

And not least, possibly

RW <--> RW
Scan
ECM/ECCM
Sniffer


And then you always need concrete examples of common expected tasks.

How do I hack Cyberware/Device to turn it off|fool it|do something else nasty.
How do I defend my cyberware/Device
How do Perception tests work and what can I see in RW <--> Matrix, Matrix <--> Matrix, Matrix <--> RW
How do I damage RW or Matrix items?
How do I fix RW and Matrix items?

Welcome to the Matrix, I am agent Smith.

There are too many Skills. The Matrix is supposedly everywhere, your average joe schmo has a fairly sophisticated (to us) knowledge of the wireless world, yet there are 8 skills involved in the process, and most archetypes ignore them completely. They should be condensed, so that everyone has the ability to do decent Matrix actions by picking up one or two skills. That would eliminate a good deal of the "well, they're not as time consuming as deckers, but it's still something they do on their own" problem and make it easier for hackers to take on other roles (and other roles to take on hacking).

Electronic Warfare only does a few useful things. You use it to find nodes, and discover wireless signals, and decrypt. It should be folded into Hacking.

Having a specific skill for finding information (Data Search) is kind of silly. It should be under Computer. If you understand how to code and how commands work, then you should understand how to to conduct a search online.

Software is either useless or powerful, depending if you are a Hacker or a TM. The coding times for programs are insane, and I'm not sure what else a Hacker needs Software for: in the future, we are all script kiddies. TM's, OTOH, abuse the hell out this skill. Drop Software and make it a TM only skill with a more appropriate name (Scripting?). Programming is now under the Computer skill.

Rigging is a mess. Drop the Remote Control mechanic altogether (along with the Command program). Remote Operations are now just a simple action done either with authority (from a hacked node) or spoofed. The device uses its own dicepool.

Computer and Hacking are now more powerful skills, but dedicated hackers still have their niche in the form of Nuyen spent to be good at what they do and the Cybercombat skill. Other archetypes now have the ability to be decent at wireless actions for far less of a resource outlay, bringing the matrix to everyone. TM's are now a little less crucified to build using BP. Riggers are no longer confused on what their dicepool is. Everyone has a reason to take at least a little bit of the Computer skill, which is how it should be.

Amen to that one. I've never made a character who had Sotfware, there just aren't enough uses for it, and there aren't enough BP to take it. There are certain other uses in Unwired, like patching your pirated progs and stuff, but IMO that's all one big waste of time, a layer of detail we didn't need. But I think it's a problem that comes out in more than just hacking -- it seems to happen whenever they make more books. For instance, magic. It wasn't enough that they had to learn spellcasting, counterspelling, ritual spellcasting, summoning, binding, and banishing. They had to go ahead and add Enchanting and Arcana. Those could have been subsets of other skills, like ritual spellcasting (it would have made ritual spellcasting useful for a change) but instead they added on two more skills that no mage would ever have points to take. The one positive thing for hackers though, is that if you make a pure hacker you have more than enough BP to take software and hardware. It's a lot of skills, but as long as you don't have a dual specialty you've got nowhere else to put the points.



Can't say I get this one. It's sort of more than we need, I guess, but it mirrors how you can hack via AR or VR. If you can hack via AR, why not rig that way? You're controlling the drone with your own skills + the power and effectiveness of your Command program. Seems ok to me...



I don't know if I agree with a general condensing. Everyone can perform matrix actions just fine by grabbing an agent and all the common use programs, doesn't cost very much at all. And basic matrix actions, like searching basic data that anyone could find (i.e. google) don't really require a roll, since nobody could fail unless they're Untrained (i.e. they took the Uneducated flaw). Just like you don't need a test to drive down the highway, or merge during heavy traffic. You can do quite a bit without a roll, the fact that you don't have a skill trained doesn't mean you can never use the skill.

Yes, there are 8 skills, but only 2 skillgroups. 10 BP gets you a 1 in Computers (I think it's called; the legal one), and see again about how there is no roll required for everyday things. You only need a skill when you need to do things out of the ordinary.

It should be noted that as of Unwired all commlinks (either the link itself or the OS) come with a built-in R1 Browse program (comparable to Internet Explorer). Not to mention all the freeware available (comparable to Mozzila or the other free browsers).

I also like the Princess Bride reference in the thread name.

Yeah, when I first picked up SR4 and saw the VCR had been condensed into a single .5 Ess item, I thought it was a good idea. But now that I have some experience with the system, I'm on the fence about whether or not it was a bad move.



I lol'd. I really did.


-paws

Passcode system has always seemed abit odd to me. Almost seems to work backwords with more powerful systems taking longer to check for intruders and admin access being able to change logs to avoid it entirely. (This is one case were leaving security tally optional rule would fit nicely.)

Program ratings, with Technomancers able to boost there ratings above hacker max fairly easily I always thought hackers should have better access then that described in Unwired.

Edit: On the other side this has been the most playable version of the matrix rules in last 4 editions and we've had more hacker/technomancers then in any past edition at the table. The only drawback being the team seems to just sit back and let the matrix guy do all legwork due to his near infinite access to resources in AR.

I suppose I just don't understand, from a fluff perspective, how it's supposed to work. You want a drone to fire a gun; instead of giving it a command to do so, you instead use a special program interface and manually input information and require the drone to follow that: trajectory calculations and range computations. Somehow, by doing this manually, you also make the drone act faster than it normally would. After the fight, you want to remotely operate a medkit. Instead of using the interface from inside the medkit's node, you use the exact same program interface you used with your drone, and manually input the information for the medkit to use: dosage levels and where to cut, what to bandage, and what to ignore. Later, you need to bring your van to your location in a hurry, but there's nasty traffic in the way. You pull up your trusty program interface, and manually input how the van is supposed to drive: velocity, when to brake, when to swerve, and when to reverse. You've used one program to do all of this, and at lightening speeds. So the command program is a virtual C:\ prompt that works with every single device?



Yes, but grabbing an agent penalizes the people who didn't understand the Matrix chapter in the first place to realize that "Hey! I don't need to sink a bunch of bp just to be able to do legwork! I can get an Agent to do that nearly as well and for much cheaper! Yay for saving BP!" or "Hey! I can get an Agent to scan for nodes! I save an action!" The idea is to make the whole thing more intuitive - if you want to do legal things with the matrix, it's the Computer skill. Illicit things are Hacking. Matrix Combat is Cybercombat. Manual interaction is Hardware.

So much for avoiding topic drift. Yer all puds. =i)

I hear folks wondering why programs replace attributes in the Matrix. There are, of course, fluff reasons given on page naked blue elf¹ in WWLOMTRAPT.² Personally, I think the real reason is for better integration of Matrix specialists into a team. The fact that you just need a program rather than an attribute means that it's that much easier to be a samurai/hacker or an infiltrator/hacker or a magician/hacker. Shadowrunners go a lot of places, and there are a lot more places with no Matrix than there are with no magic or no fighting.

And since my data's getting corrupted with all the drift, let me ask another question that will help me clarify the data I've gleaned so far. Of those who find the Matrix rules confusing, how many are basing this feeling off of a reading of SR4 alone, how many off a reading of SR4A alone, and how many off of a reading of both?

¹p. 226.
²SR4A, if you haven't heard.

No, I don't think you manually input trajectory equations. It's more like you use your own skills to control a drone. Like say you were doing Gunnery. You aim and fire the turret just as if you were doing it manually, except you're doing it with an AR remote control -- a virtual joystick? A virtual touchpad? Whatever you want. The point is, it's like having an RC truck or car, but with much more complex controls.



A drone's speed is not limited first and foremost by how fast its servos go. It is limited by how fast its computer can react to situations and decide how best to follow orders. If you pilot the drone on manual, that's out of the equation. Now, it acts just as fast as you input commands.



You could use the medkit's interface if you wanted, but it also requires hands to do what it says. Subscribe to the medkit's node, bring it up in a window in your link. The medkit gives advice on what to do, and you manually manipulate the drone's arms to do it. Your own first aid skills are important, because it helps you know where to stick the needles, how to wrap a good bandage, and all that stuff that you're doing with the drone's arms.



No, you don't just send general instructions through Command. That's not the remote control feature, that's the captain's chair. If you give commands to the drone and tell it to act on its own, then it uses its Pilot rating, not your skills. With Command, you take hold of the virtual wheel, push the virtual pedals, and drive the van through boring traffic just as if you were sitting in it.

The Command program is universal because it links electronic functions to virtual controls. A good command program has an intuitive interface which gives you fine control over throttle, steering, weapons, and all of that. It's like a radio transmitter pad you'd use for an RC car, but it's infinitely more complicated, and also virtual.




So you're saying basically to fold Data Search and Software into Computer. I think that would probably make sense. I don't think it's absolutely required, because again, agents can do all that grunt work. I'm not sure what's unintuitive about Agents. It's like if you did your computing through the paper clip guy on MS Office, only if the paper clip wasn't stupid and worthless, but actually just did whatever you typed into that little box with no fuss.

As oneof theh old outs against 4th ed (and gee laready they want you to buy new books? 4.0 is already passee?) I really do like the new hacking rules introduced in 4th ed. decking has always been a problem in SR from day one. The fact that it was so involved that the rest of the players could go out for pizza while the decker ran his or her little demi adventure. It was so bad our house rules banned deckers, they were all NPC's.

The new system is soo much fasdter and cleaner. It also seems rather more like the system from Ghost in the Shell instead of Tron.

Overall it is faster, cleaner and cheaper to deck now...oops sorry hack. For rule books I'll wait for 5th ed before I buy in. that should be march of 2010 the way they're going now.

That raises the question of how using Command is better than just sitting behind the wheel.

Is it though?

Though I guess that you Could program a rating 7+ Command Program... Of course, you lose out on your high rating Reaction in that case, substituting in your Program Rating... could be a wash, but probably not...