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DireRadiant
QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jul 8 2009, 05:28 PM) *
I'm just looking for a clarification on how the rules handle this. I can easily houserule the problem myself, but I want to make sure it isn't covered elsewhere already.


The extra IP for VR are available only because you are in VR mode. If you are not in VR mode, you do not have extra IP to worry about for physical actions.

You do have this p. 229 SR4

"Likewise, if you switch from VR to
physical/augmented reality, you immediately lose any extra
Initiative Passes from virtual reality that Combat Turn."

In SR4A p. 236

"Though Matrix Initiative is concurrent with physical Initiative,
any actions you take using your Matrix Initiative can only affect other
things in the Matrix (unless you are interacting with the physical world,
as when rigging or controlling a device). If you want to interact with
the physical world rather than the VR Matrix, you need to either go offline
or concentrate on your meat body and spend a turn using physical
Initiative (not forgetting the €“6 dice pool modifier for physical actions
in VR)."

Though I haven't found much other text to address your question, the fact the penalty exists implies you can act physically while in VR mode. The question is really how many physical IP you can take, which is not explicitly addressed as far as I can tell. In my opinion I would limit Physical actions to the number of Physical IP during a turn, and you don't get to stack physical and matrix IP. e.g if you have 1 Physical and 3 VR Matrix, and stay in VR, you could get Physical- Matrix-Matrix, or Matrix-Matrix-Matrix.

And if someone says "It doesn't say I can't stack the physical and matrix IP" you can answer with "The book also doesn't say I shouldn't beat you in the face with it repeatedly with it."
Wiseman
QUOTE
I'm just looking for a clarification on how the rules handle this. I can easily houserule the problem myself, but I want to make sure it isn't covered elsewhere already.


Mesh reality echo in Unwired can give you a good base to work from (sans the normal penalty for physical).

Basically they use Matrix Initiative and VR passes, but may take (a) physical pass(es) to the maximum of their normal number of physical pass(es)..while in VR.

Example
Physical IP: 1
Matrix IP: 3

Would have three passes per combat turn, one of which may be used as a physical pass (with a -6 DP penalty to all physical actions)

Most commlinks have RAS enabled, so it takes a hardware test to disable it in the first place. I honestly don't think it's ever come up during play though, as in no one thinks it was a good enough idea to be worth the effort and penalty (-6 is HUGE).

If it's the more passes you're after while being able to blend physical actions more cohesively, get cyber/bio reflex upgrades and hack in AR. If that's not enough, play a techno and get acceleration, overclocking, advanced overclocking, multiprocessing, and mesh reality (not something you'll do overnight but feasible for LT characters).

.02
Mirilion
Thanks. That cleared up a few things. You have to devote a turn to use physical initiative and actions, and that means you can't actually use both at the same time, unless you mesh reality (I think).
I think this will come up when a hacker is held in VR by black IC and wants to run into a non-wireless zone to escape. Right now I can't think of any other cases.

Thanks again.
Wiseman
Ah just couldn't let it die..

I wanted to clarify that using a physical pass in VR is different than switching initiative. Switching initiative would be pulling out of VR to do stuff in AR or physical and the normal rules for SI apply.

I was trying to give some options for using physical actions while still in VR, because the book says you get a -6 penalty due to the overlaid senses, but does not clarify how or when you can take any physical actions for VR in mechanical terms. If you switch initiative to physical you're not getting a -6 penalty since you're no longer in VR.

I loosely based it off unwired's rules for the "mesh reality" echo, as it specifically allows a TM to take matrix/physical actions in VR (without the -6 DP to all physical actions, only a -4 penalty to combat/cybercombat if engaged in both combats at the same time, with the Macro echo allowing you to do away with the cybercombat penalty).

So if I had to guess how the mysterious -6 DP for physical in VR would work, I'd make them override the RAS in the commlink, let it function as Mesh Reality with the -6 DP to all physical actions. Take total VR passes, and limit their physical passes to what they would normally have available.
toolbox
QUOTE (Wiseman @ Jul 9 2009, 03:08 PM) *
Ah just couldn't let it die..

I wanted to clarify that using a physical pass in VR is different than switching initiative. Switching initiative would be pulling out of VR to do stuff in AR or physical and the normal rules for SI apply.

I was trying to give some options for using physical actions while still in VR, because the book says you get a -6 penalty due to the overlaid senses, but does not clarify how or when you can take any physical actions for VR in mechanical terms. If you switch initiative to physical you're not getting a -6 penalty since you're no longer in VR.

If you take physical actions while jacked into VR, you use your physical IPs and initiative for the turn, with a -6 penalty. It's the worst of both worlds, essentially - you're trying to pay attention to meatspace while the Matrix is still flooding into your brain. There's nothing mysterious about it; you need Mesh Reality in order to mix VR and meat actions in a single turn.
Wiseman
That seems simplest and using Occam's razor, I think you're probably right.

Seems completely pointless though, as you would ALWAYS switch initiative as staying in VR and trying to do something physical has no point. Why even have the rule.

*Edit*

I could see the point if you were stuck in VR due to Black IC and needed to move your physical self before you went unconcious or worse..
toolbox
That, or if you need to do something so badly you can't spare the time to switch out of VR, maybe. I think the point is that you wouldn't want to do it, though; I don't think this rule is an attempt to encourage the practice.

Also, I just found this. From SR4, p.208:
QUOTE
Matrix Actions
A number of actions are available to anyone interacting
with the Matrix (see Using the Matrix, p. 217). When accessing
by AR,
these actions may be interchanged with standard
physical actions.

Emphasis mine.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toolbox @ Jul 9 2009, 07:28 PM) *
That, or if you need to do something so badly you can't spare the time to switch out of VR, maybe. I think the point is that you wouldn't want to do it, though; I don't think this rule is an attempt to encourage the practice.

Also, I just found this. From SR4, p.208:

Emphasis mine.



BUT... Ar is not VR... An AR Action is an action taken in the PHYSICAL World, not the MAtrix...
toolbox
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2009, 05:52 PM) *
BUT... Ar is not VR... An AR Action is an action taken in the PHYSICAL World, not the MAtrix...


Uhhh...

There's no such thing as "an AR action." Seriously, there isn't. What does your statement even mean?

And I know AR isn't VR; that's the point. When accessing the Matrix through AR, you can mix physical and Matrix actions in a single turn. Otherwise, you can't (unless you're a technomancer with the Mesh Reality Echo). That's what the rules I quoted mean.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toolbox @ Jul 9 2009, 08:04 PM) *
Uhhh...

There's no such thing as "an AR action." Seriously, there isn't. What does your statement even mean?

And I know AR isn't VR; that's the point. When accessing the Matrix through AR, you can mix physical and Matrix actions in a single turn. Otherwise, you can't (unless you're a technomancer with the Mesh Reality Echo). That's what the rules I quoted mean.



Which was also the point I ineptly attempted to make...
Relax, it's okay...
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