I see them as people too. But I played fucked-up people. But I do normal people and non-shooters, and you know what? I still don't focus on killing. That's because there seems to be a fundamental difference between our personal POVs. The OP seems to assume that all killing fucks up people in some way or another. I don't, and that's based on knowing people who've killed/murdered in war and peace, just and criminally. Some regret it. Some absolutely do not. But all of them sleep just fine. They live with their actions, and to assume that somehow a criminal character in an RPG can't is ridiculous.

I think of the question of "how do they relate to the team?" indifferently, like the PCs would. I think of the really good crime fiction, and a movie like Heat, and how the characters are based on real people. Some people just don't care; don't care much; or just hate (certain) people so much that it doesn't register. But then I've had that discussion before regarding racism in RPGs, and it always goes off the rails because the other side of the argument is filled with people who can't get racism, and I've never known how to put words to how alien that seems to me (especially in light of its predominance in humanity, especially historically). But the same thing applies. The true sociopaths may or may not be intrinsically committed to the relationship of The Team, but others do it just fine. Just like regular people. Some of them are killers as a job. Most of our runs are wetwork-centric. You get good at something, and for some people it defines who they are.

The funny thing is that recently I've begun to justify my storytelling ex post facto, and come up with excuses for why almost every PC and NPC I've played dies--and dies a violent death--as because that's what happens. I played an evil, evil PC and as I thought about it later I came up with some justification that in the end she had to go; that's how's the story is supposed to end. But that's bullshit. It's because that's the life. You live it long enough and stay in the game long enough and your life expectancy increasingly approaches zero. You are going to get killed eventually. That's why everyone want to retire to Fiji but no one ever does. And the characters all knew it, and because that's the way things happen and the dice roll, most of them have been lucky enough to find out for sure.

*looks back at the OP*

Hmmmm, I didn't mean to give that impression. I MEANT to simply suggest that taking a life CHANGES a person, for better or worse. Some people, even those with no mental issues, sleep fine after. Others DO experience recurring nightmares, or bouts of depression and/or guilt. And I was asking if/how people dealt with it in their games and for their characters - if it was something they considered and dealt with.

Looked at another way, ok, let's say your (where "your" is any person) character has been killing for years, feels no remorse and sleeps like a baby. They will cheerfully smash an infant's skull against the pavement to get it to stop crying. But have you ever gone back to their first kill? There's always a first. What hapened? Who was it? What were the emotions associated with the act?

First kill.
Ususally i use that to get them into the Shadows.

I always enjoy your insight Critias. This always comes to mind anytime we have discussions like this. It's hard for most of us folks to understand what it takes to actually survive. Sure, some of us have lived on the streets before but theres usually a safety net of some sort (soup kitchens, shelters, panhandling, etc). I really have to work to understand a life with no safety nets. I've seen people on the news live like this but I never have. I think I could but I'd be a different person. And honestly, a somewhat happier person at that.

Also, why do runners need to be unhappy? I imagine some people thrive on this stuff. Who hasn't wanted to be involved in a heist? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Never said they had to be unhappy. Of course, I DID start another thread about what they do to make themselves happy...

Agreed, but it's still a lot of fun to play Wuthering Heights RPG from time to time.

I've read through most of the thread and wanted to make a few observations. (I'm too tired to go back through and pull quotes for everything)

Making the kill is easy, we are fairly fragile beings. Living with the choice, depends a lot on who we are, how we did it, etc. Our society has plenty of people who can be clinically labeled as sociopaths, deranged, except for the key problem that all psychological testing begins with determining whether or not the condition has an adverse effect on the individual's lifestyle. A person can form close bonds with friends, love his family, and be perfectly able to walk past another human being dying in the street without a second glance. The complete lack of compasison for the dying person could demonstrate a low-grade sociopathic nature for the person, but since it doesn't impact his life, he's not a sociopath.

Likewise, a sniper can take the life of an enemy combatant and not feel any remorse for the kill. He did his job and feels proud for it, but the same person may feel devastating grief if he accidentally runs a person over with his car. The sniper was trained and created a schism in his mind about when and where killing is ok and when it's not. In this case, the shooter lacks any form of empathy to the enemy, but deep empathy toward the innocent victim. The question of how personally you acted in the death also changes the matter for a lot of people. Someone who is willing to shoot another person, or blow up a car, may be squeamish about shoving a knife into their target's gut or slitting the throat of a sleeping person. Distance and the ability of the mind to rationalize the other person's death are key factors.

Within the game, as many people have said, the concept of the character and the internal situation will determine how far someone is willing to go and what acts are permissible and what are not. Is your character the type of person who shoots to wound someone and then waits for the victim's buddies to show up so that you can turn one kill into seven, or do you do the job cleanly with minimal casualties?

In the case of the car bomb blowing up the pregnant woman, some people wouldn't bat an eye. (The child wasn't born yet, so it didn't exist as a person, and the woman was a target. Obviously, if someone was willing to pay for her assassination, she must have done something deserving of it.) Others may run forward, seeing her and try to stop before she gets in the car. Still others, may not care about the target but need to stop the car from exploding because a 7 year old is riding his bike down the street and would be caught by the shrapnel as the car exploded.

We can argue the fine points and psychological trauma or scarring for days and never come to a firm decision.

As Finn:
For me, I can pull the trigger and not have a regret on an enemy combatant. The shot will be as clean and quick as I can make it, and I will sleep just fine that night. If the target was instead of a combatant, an innocent victim, it would depend on that persons proximity to me and mine for how I feel. Really, at the end of the day, if me and mine are happy and safe, that's all I care about. Whether that makes me a bad person is up to history to decide.

Wow Bishop, you guys from California are always so violent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good post, I totally agree with you. I hit someone whith my car once and I felt terrible, even though no damage was done. I beat someone once and humiliated them while doing it and felt quite content with myself. I'm sure that if someone meant to severely damage me or my friends maliciously I'd be fine with destroying them (and probably a whole lot more).

That's pretty sweet. I always thought Wuthering Heights the novel was pretty much a big joke anyway.