toturi, you're not even making me laugh anymore. What you're saying is that blind obedience to words on a page is more important that the immersive setting the rules are trying to model. I find that type of reading to be very limited, and I'd hope that you're smarter than that.

+1 IP is pretty strac as it is, given that 95% of NPCs won't have it. The mage, to do that, has to be maintaining 3+ spells, and that's 6 dice off on that gymnastics dodge pool, so it's kind of a wash.


A starting rigger can get extra passes, sure, but if my friend (the party rigger) is correct, he has to burn one of them just piloting the thing, so it's less of an issue. And I addressed the mage already.


First, remember that starting skillwires are capped at Rtg 3 for the implant itself. Now we're into pluscode and optimization. But still do-able. Unloading a 'soft is an action. Loading a new 'soft takes an action. A little rough in a fire fight. But even at 12,000Â¥ a pop, you're running out of starting cash FAST.
Second, I don't understand your comment about cyberware being for 'zombies only. What changed to make it so untennable just because the price of an active 'soft went up?
The monofilament itself isn't metalic, no. But the handle? And just being non-metalic doesn't make it immune to a cyberscanner. And do you seriously plan to "clean up" with a Raecor Sting?
Finally, I thought it was "or fraction of" for the healing, but I need to go check.

What? a mage can literally just summon a spirit and give the spirit a gun. Now he''s got a guy with longarms six, two IPs and armour 12, in addition to whatever it is that the mage does. Or he could just have a sustaining focus and improved reflexes, which doesn't particularly cost him much of anything. Or, he could get the spirit to possess him and then

you can see where this is going. The rigger can just jump into a drone. Now he's got three IP passes with a white knight MMG.

Everyone gets multiple IP passes out the door. The sammie's advantage that he gets for the 160k yens he pays is that he gets to be inconpicious while having them.

With the skillwires, you don't do it in combat, that would be silly. Basic stuff that you need to do all the time or on short notice, like shoot, spot things and dodge are actual skills that you actually have. Other stuff you can preload. As for the cost issue.. R1 in a skill costs 4 BP which also equals 20k nuyen which is almost twice what a R4 skillsoft costs. Getting rank 4 in a skill costs a cool 80k nuyen in BP.

Skillsofts are awesomely good deals.

As for the monowire thing.... Why the hell would you make a metal handle for a plastic weapon when we already make plastic handles for guns? The only problem would be the spooling mechanism, but you could just elastic.

Edit: The below is true, but also partly invalidates the comparison with a sniper rifle wielding street sammie. ADPS is, technically, better than elemental attack in terms of damage so I felt that a full comparison was justified.

Elemental Attack is more commonly used by spirits and can be very effective with it's LOS range.

"As for the cost issue.. R1 in a skill costs 4 BP which also equals 20k nuyen which is almost twice what a R4 skillsoft costs. Getting rank 4 in a skill costs a cool 80k nuyen in BP."


So you guys don't use SR4A errata where activesofts are Rating x 10k? I have no clue why a piece of software would cost that much besides for game balance, but that really doesn't matter since it's clear as day in the errata. I would guess that's why physical mask was also mentioned, since beating a threshold of 3+ is just like taking candy from a baby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Skillsofts went up because even at 40k for a Rating 4, you're still saving BP: 8bp for the Skillsoft versus 16bp for the actual skill. Half off is not a big enough bonus for you Cthulhu?

Styles of games can change thing of course, but I find it odd that you find that any cyberware, ever, immediately makes you useless in getting into a facility. Whatever happened to sneaking into the building, or having the hacker mess with the scanner? Hell, just have the mage slap him with physical mask and he can waltz through. And of course, there are MAD-undectable weapons better than a Raecor - there's a SMG that can get through scanners. Plus, it requires 3 hits on an assensing test to determine rough level of magic; or are we to assume that every awakened person is outright banned from this party? Last I looked, it's not against the law to be awakened.

As for Unarmed Adept v. Monofilament dude - well, my guy doesn't even need a weapon to do 8p and ignore armor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Not to mention the secondary effect. Throwing Adept guy has the ability attack twice a turn and across the room.


Until someone does the obvious and geeks the mage. Then, no more spirit (or the spirit goes on a rampage upon the mage's unconscious body).

The setting also makes it pretty clear that cyberware is a viable option and it is presented as such. It's only here on Dumpshock where many try to play knife-edged gritty games that the idea that cyberware is unfeasible in a cyber-fantasy setting.

I think we're talking about getting into a party and then getting close to the CEO without the body guards being on

Band Aid:



Ahh, the walking Band-Aid. Your team can charge headlong into an machine gun and be good to go as long as this fellow is around. He can First Aid you, then Pain Relief you, then Magically heal you, then Empathic Heal you, then repeat steps 1-3 on himself. If there is (somehow) any damage left over, he can use Resist Pain to ignore its effects. In a fight, he can allow you to ignore your Stun track with Awaken - so go ahead and laugh at those poor fools shooting you with SnS ammo! For his own personal damage dealing, he's a fan of the Overcast Stunbolt, or use his super squirt.

First Aid DP: (First Aid 8 + Inevitable Spec 2 + Logic 5 + Medkit 6): 21
Heal DP: (4 Magic + 2 Power Foci + Spellcasting 4 + Inevitable Specialization 2 + Mentor Spirit 2): 15
Empathic Heal DP: (Magic 4 + Power Foci 2 + 5 Willpower): 11

Edit: Dropped Pain Relief and Improved Infiltration and Rapid Healing, changed Mage magic to 4, Adept to 1, picked up Cerebral Booster 2, Reaction Enhancers 2, dropped Demolitions, Bought Exotic weapon up to 4. Changed Agility to 4 and Willpower to 5. Dropped Stunbolt for Improved Invisibility. A minor change, overall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are we already back to the SIN/Scanner dilemma that has been tortutred and left for dead?

You are kidding right? Any Street Sam with serious intent can get 3 IP's without magic or rigging as a necessary part of their character at creation... Wired Reflexes 2 gives it too you for only 32000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and the truly serious can get Wired Reflexes 3, if they really want it, for 4 passes... for the low, low price of 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

How is that Useless?

You didn't read what I said. I said you are useless unless you get 3IPs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wired Reflexs 3 is terrible and should never be mentioned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, I am asking you to free your mind from the paradigm that the rules should be modeling your perceived setting. I find that your type of reading to be extremely limited and I had assumed that you'd be smarter than that. I am not advocating blind obedience, I am suggesting you change your mindset.

First off, the great majority of my characters average at 2 IP... They have never been useless, even against the 3 IP guys...
Second, why is Wired 3 Terrible?

Well, if you get the regular grade version you only have 1 essence left for other stuff, and you probably want ears and eyes which leaves you no essence for other stuff.

Now, if you buy the alpha version, you pay almost as much as synaptic boosters (which cost 20% more) for a 4 essence version compared to a 1.5 essence version from the boosters.

If you pay for beta, they are now strictly worse than the synaptic boosters.

This may have changed in SR4A, but overall they are either impractical, strictly worse, or in the 'sweet spot' of alpha grade wired reflexes, merely hohum.

If you care about such things, then sure, the Cyber has drawbacks... But WHO CARES... for 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) I get 4 passes and +3 to my stat... may not be the BEST expenditure of my essence, but you know what... I can start with it at character creation... and as for additional gear... Cyber Eyes and Ears cost an additional .5 Essence for the things that I generally use... so I still have .5 essence left... More than plenty for a competant street sam, and I have only used 27 BP to do so... that is a big win in the Character Creation department as far as I am concerned...

Let's try it this way:

Wired Reflexes 3 (5 essence, 100k)
Muscle Toner 4 (.8, 32k)(reduce to .4)
Platelet Factories (.2, 25k) (reduce to .1)
= +3 Ip, + 3 Reaction, +4 Agility, damage reducing ability for:
157k - the cost of Synaptic Boosters 2.

There you go... Can't argue with that...

Emphasis mine.

Two items way beyond normal starting availability. But that's what "Restricted Gear" (up to three times) is for.

So wait, we're comparing the monetary cost, but not the essence cost, conceability or availibity? Damn, well, lets just compare on the basis of essence cost then, I imagine that will create a meaningful comparison.

See, I can get this bling for less essence, it must be better.

Datajack
Bone Lacing (Ceramic)Û©
Radar Sensor 4
Suprathyroid Gland
Synthacardium 3
Trauma DamperÛ©
Synaptic Booster 3
Platelet Factories
Muscle Toner 4
Cyber eyes
Cyber Ears
Reaction Boosters 3

See, I have +3 IP and +6 Reaction. Awesome!

Actually wait no that is a stupid comparison.

Not stupid. Overboard. By the time you have that cash, Karma is less an issue.

[ Spoiler ]

Synaptic 3, Delta
Augmentation 4, Delta
Toner 4, Delta
Comlink, w/ skinlink and Sim Module, Delta
SimRig, Delta
Nanoware Retinal Adjusters 6, Delta
Nanoware Palm Print 6, Delta
Nanoware Biomonitor, Delta
Orthoskin 3, Delta
Ceramic Bone Lacing, Delta
Suprathyroid, Delta

Mystic Adept, Initiate Grade 6 - Masking, Extended Masking, Centering, +3 more
Spell Capability, 6
Adpet Powers, 8-9 points, max rating 3
Power Focus 4+

Facial Sculpt
Melanin Control
Voice Control
Sustenance
Traceless Walk
Gliding
Wall Running
Leap of the Heavens 3
Killing Hands
Critical Strike 3
Penetration 3
Multitasking
Nimble Fingers
Combat Reflexes 3
Improved Perception 3
Low light, thermal, damper-ears, damper-eyes, select sound filter, spatial recognition, balance augmentation, Improved hearing range, image magnification.

And bonuses to some skills.

I am pretty sure that all fits without grabbing a calculator, but it's not a low-Karma chatacter, or even a mid-range character.

A lot of what I have seen here on DS are either high-end prime runners, where "game balance" is becoming relative, or munchie (egad, would AS haze me over ME saying that!) starting characters that favor power over style or playability. If you bring something godsawful to the table, and chortle about how it's RAW, the GM won't have any choice but to roll out the big guns to deal with your group, which will be lethal for the "softie" support types. I know I am painting with a broad brush, but even a 500 bp character isn't quite as abusive as some of what I have seen here. Of course, I am also assuming the 500 bp character was doing silly things like buying knowledges and languages, non-combat active skills and varried contacts. Many people have noted their groups have like 35 or 60 karma under their belts, and I would really love to see what some of those developing 'runners look like. I KNOW how often it comes back to the guns, but I have been on a lot of good runs, too; Part of successful 'running is being able to recover the mistakes. Creativity on the fly should be rewarded, not burried under an avalanche of automatic gunfire. We're playing with a Spider mage, and I can tell you, he's frightening for the way he pulls things out of his ... backside. The number of times it's left the GM slack jawed and speechless is hysterical. I think my favorite so far was the "Trid Phantasm to create big holographic arrows pointing out the badguys I can see in the crowd for security." That was so much chaos, we walked right in and completed the mission... while I waited on a roof top with my sniper rifle IN CASE it came to guns and running.

On Demolitions:
I can't think of a worse skill to stuff into skillwires than demolitions... can you think of another skill you'd REALLY want to spend edge on! Normally demo chars also boast a high edge in addition to not putting the skill into wires. (this is a case, i'd much rather have 1-2 ranks in the skill plus a potential specialization than buy a rating 4 software).

Karenshara:
No putting all 5 out of 5 points into spellcasting isn't not exploring the MA's nature... especially if the player takes adept powers as he develops. Such a char is pretty gimped compared to a straight magician w/o astral perception already. And to get astral perception he has to sacrifice a point of magic. The problem comes down to 'astral scrubbing' and counterspelling... any spells he casts and sustains can be dispelled by an astral mage pretty much at will. Any spells he casts will leave astral signatures which will point right back at him and lead to a fairly short life as a shadow mage.

That line in there, is mostly to prevent this abuse. I'm playing a straight adept... but I buy MA just so I can learn counterspelling... nothing else, just counterspelling (rather than buying the adept power of magic resistance w/ PP). That is abuse to me.

A similar weaker case, where instead of killing hands for spirits... you could use the attack of will (street magic) as a face type adept and replace it w/ the skill banishing.




Way to go you FINALLY made a semi-usefull MA... after I pointed out the char concept as one of the few usefull ones how many pages ago?! After specifically pointing out that a MA w/ a good mentor and specialization in a single line of spells like health can be effective.

Though to critique... this is a char who really wants astral perception, most of the adept healing abilities are junk. Astral perception also has medical uses (think of it as a magical CAT scan ability) in assisting diagnosing things in the field. Plus EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR ADEPTS HAS LACKED THE ABILITY TO WIPE OUT HIS ASTRAL SIGNATURES!!! despite having a spellcasting focus... they leave spellcasting fingerprints all over the place. Those will get you tracked down and eliminated. Using stunbolt in combat will need to be wiped, in fact w/ your low magic you're really better off w/ a gun than an attack spell outside your specialty. The primary reason to have a direct combat spell is to defend yourself against spirits and astral mages.

Read the astral section of the book. W/O extended masking you stand out like a sore thumb on the astral already. Now you're adding active spells to make your brightly glowing aura glow even brighter. And don't forget, your increase reflexes spell is only one counter spell from being wiped out. Especially by a purely astral projecting mage you can do nothing about.


Your magic is way too high... 5/5 is enough... ditch the worthless adept heals. That's why you have the heal spell right. Actually read Pain relief... 5minute per box healed... you're almost better just taking a nap under medical supervision.

empathic healing.. pointless only transfers physical.. and you can only apply magical healing once per set of wounds (just like you can only apply first aid once, and only before magical healing).

You also quickly illustrate one of the problems mystic adepts suffer. In order to bring their magic up to usable... they really need to rely heavily on focus crutches. (power focus). So much so that a minor background count hurts you a bit. (in fact, a strong case can be made for going for a better power focus using restricted gear and dropping magic from 6->5). And to really be combat worthy, you'd want a sustaining focus for your increase reflexes.


In the end, if you're out just to heal like this... what do you gain by going MA over magician. A logic tradition mage, would have a much more potent spellcasting pool (especially w/ the power focus). All for 3 less dice on the first aid check, and a bunch of magical healings you can't use more than one of anyhow. The key to making this adept work and differentiate it from the straight mage is to give it some character and branch it out a little more into other adept powers as fitting.

Actually that line up only costs 1/2 a mil which is considerably less than just the delta synaptic boosters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Really though you can make a perfectly well rounded sammie built around the equipment I linked before, it's hardly munchkinitis. The guy has B&E capability, is extremely stealth capability, perception, and can perform covert assassinations at close and long range. Weakest area is, as always, legwork - but you've going to use him for survillance, shadowing etc.

If not the setting, then what should they be modeled upon? Or are you suggesting that the rules come first and that the setting should thus incorporate every facet of the rules - including wildly silly corner cases?

BTW, your weak attempts to reverse my statements into your arguments with are getting pretty lame - you're sounding like the jackass mentor from Mystery Men. If you have something to say, try being a bit more straightforward with less game-playing.

falconer: astral projecting mage is on the astral plane. in all probability, the spells these mystic adepts are sustaining will be on the physical plane. particularly considering the mystic adepts can't even get to the astral plane in order to have a spell cast on them there, if for some bizarre reason they wanted to (well... there's always deepweed i guess, but still...)

so yeah, the magician will come along and... watch. can't dispel the sustained spells, because there's a planar barrier between the magician and the mystic adept.

also, the healing adept has a skill of 7(10) which means up to 10 boxes can be healed using first aid. a regular magician can, at best, heal 7 (assuming a skill of 7, which i doubt you'll see on a magician).

also, the empathic healing is to turn one set of wounds into 2. it doesn't heal, and arguably wouldn't be subject to a cap on magic healing, but let's pretend it is: you use first aid on the victim, transfer, use first aid on yourself, use magic healing on yourself. 2 first aid rolls and a heal spell is clearly better than 1 first aid roll and a heal spell.