ok, this didn't really seem to fit with the Agents question I asked earlier. This is about Hacking and my Logic stat. I looked at the catalyst labs FAQ for SR on this and I understand the basics of the uses of my hacking skill and logic attribute. But what I really want to know is, can I really not use my Logic skill along with my hacking skill and the Program rating? It just seems that a Logic 1 dummy with a commlink, hacking 5 and exploit 5 could do just as good at the same task as a logic 6 hacker with the same gear.

I had a thought, in unwired, theres a quality called intuitive hacking and you choose a specific action and don't need a program. Does that mean I could use my logic attribute along with my hacking or electronic warfare skill instead of a program?

I'm sorry to be asking all these questions, this just really bugs me that my logic stat can't really help me in my matrixy skills that much.

Or am i missing something? I am here to learn...

That quality is near-useless. It allows you to do ONE matrix action without a program. (You can take it multiple time of course) And your missing dice from your pool will not be replaced by an attribute or something (you only have your skill)

Also there are some threads about mental attributes and their uses in the matrix. And dozens of suggestions for houserules.

More specifically, the quality is horribly overpriced, since you can buy a rating 1 copy of every hacking or common use program in the books for just 10,400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , costing you just over 2 BP and allowing you to take any matrix action as long as you don't lose them.

it allows you to use one matrix action from ANY device, pretty much (like having to know protocol in your head instead of using netcat or something... scary proposition). it lets you do something without having to swap out programs when your commlink is already bogged down, and to avoid having to thread and sustain an R1 complex form for a simple task while you may want to be multitasking.

i'm rather fond of the quality, myself, though it is mostly good for players who favor personality over dice pools. it's fun with codeslinger too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A common house rule is to limit the bonus form a program by your logic, not a rule I entirely support because it makes SOTA programs fairly...worthless. Hardware and software are logic skills however, and some hacking/computer checks do use logic.

I may be opening a huge can o' worms here, but in my game at least, my GM would never approve a Logic 1 or 2 hacker build.

If I were the GM, and that PC came to my table, I'd have great fun making them roll logic checks when they wanted to do something. "Oh, you want to hack that guy's cybereyes to erase the incriminating footage of you? Hmmm... that's pretty clever. Better roll your logic to see if your character would think of it. Let's see... threshold 2. Roll 'em." But then again, like I said, at our table all builds are approved or disapproved by GM before game play, and that's one that wouldn't make it.

Yeah, I wouldn't let that happen at my table either.

I've still been running Logic + Skill limited by program rating, but I'm considering going to Skill + Program limited by Logic or just going to RAW altogether...my players aren't min/maxing the matrix and the ones that could abuse this don't have characters that want to steal the matrix limelight from the hacker...so I may just have to turn the safety off and let them play:)

heh, I know that a hacker of Logic 1 wouldn't be allowed, I was just using it as an example for my question.

And real quick, whats RAW mean?

Rules as Written.

I also endorse these matrix rules: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48836

They are good.

Personally, I find the frequent, repeated crying over low Logic hackers to be pointless and more than a bit irritating.

This isn't the 1970's or the 1980's or even the 2000's.

Programs in 2070's are verging on autonomous. It helps if you have training, of course, but you really don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out. Seriously, you tell the program to do something, point it in the right direction, and it does it. You just need to know how to start it up - that requires training, not smarts.

Where the low Logic hacker is going to be at a disadvantage compared to high Logic hackers is in making his own stuff. He's going to be buying everything he uses - and he better hope he has contacts who aren't out to screw him.

-paws

PS Nothing personal OP, this just keeps popping up over and over again.

That's the one I use. It's the least disturbance on the RAW while still making Logic worth something. For TM's I would probably not fix it at Logic but limit their hits by whatever their Fading attribute happens to be for their tradition (sometimes Logic, other times Intuition or Charisma).


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) Ugh, let's not drag that ugly dead horse out again. The "problems" that those rules propose to fix are overblown to the millionth degree, and they introduce just as much meta-gamey explanations as they purportedly rail against. Let the guy run the RAW and then decide for himself if they need changing/replacing.

Low Logic Hacking and Computer and Agents allow more PCs of all kinds to interact and act in the Matrix. Gun Bunny Street Sam or Mage can know do a tiny bit of low level hacking as needed. Or rigging.

More options to include this element of the game is good. For a few BP, no team is caught short in the minor hack, such as opening a matrix door lock or hacking a camera, department.

I have been running a group that seems to be allergic to hackers/matrix since SR2, so I welcome this as well. YMMV of course.

Damn, beaten to the crux of the issue by my own GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Count me in the "tired of hearing whining about low Logic Hackers" camp as well...

yeah, that's right up there with making your characters roll to drive to the stuffer shack

mmhmm... too bad there's not a FAQ so as to stop there being a new thread about this topic every week...

Wait, so you complain about me suggesting house rules, while at the same time suggesting a house rule? Man, seriously.

@paws2sky

The fluff totally shouts out to the concept of super l33+ hackers like Fastjack, who given a rubber band and a toothpick and slice some serious security.. who just don't exist with point and click hacking rules. I mean, that isn't bad in the abstract, it just doesn't gel properly.

This is why people complain. Fastjack is awesome because he's smart and fast - two things that make no difference when it actually comes to slicing someone's hot firewall and dodging the ICE. But people want the super pro hacker with nothing to overcome the big corporate hotshots with all the money in the world, which the rules don't facilitate. When people's expectations are not met, they come and complain about it.

Lots of people expect smarts to be a critical component of hacking - the very archtype is the smart geeky guy. Failure to deliver on expectations results in complaints.

I guess the best analogy is this: If you went to a fancy french restaurt and got a maccers burger at maccers prices, you would probably complain because the food was not what you were expecting - not because the food is bad, you'd happily get the same burger from McDonalds.

The lack of logic in the hacking rules is no worse or better than a McD's burger - it's just not what people are expecting because they ordered some pasta/Fastjack style smart hackers.

I never liked just how Script-Kiddie a lot of Shadowrun 4th felt. I am still trying to figure out a way to pull Logic into my Matrix game, been toying with some House rules but havent gotten myself stuck down yet. Its one of the reasons I play as a Technomancer. At least that way I can make some use of having a 5 in Logic.

A hacker that writes all his own code isn't a hacker; he's a programmer. He has no time for hacking because all of it is taken up by coding. Any hacker who wants to run with the team will be needing to buy very nearly everything he uses unless the campaign goes on for years and includes months of downtime at a stretch. Rolling your own programs is a practically tiny portion of being a hacker, and thus Logic remains a functionally irrelevant attribute for the hacker.

I use an optional rule published in a Rulebook that tweaks one aspect of the game. Not a complete house rule replacement for the entire system.

I have been thinking about changing the time for each roll for patching from 1 Week to 1 Hour. Unfortunatly I dont have any players to test this on right now. Would reducing it to 1 hour trivialise the entire thing? Would 6 hours be better? A day? More?

I like the thought of my groups Hacker needing to do some work to keep himself in tip-top hacking condition, but I dont really want to have him spend every waking moment making him do so.

You might get 1 out of 20 hackers at the table wanting to program their own software, but most will just buy everything and not have to worry about SOTA. I've yet to have anyone care to break copy protection on any program and share with the team. The non-hackers don't care about high rating programs.

The biggest problem w/ people writing their own stuff is it takes forever (months) then you need to spend a lot more time keeping it up to date.

If you write one program, then are part of a hacker cooperative and share your work for access to theirs... okay nice use of a group contact.

Really the programming rules as written only make sense for large corps, who can keep a programmer to write one or two pieces of software as his responsibility... then maintain them and distribute them in house. W/ the cost increase in skillwires, this is a prime example... if I have one guy write say 1 to 3... I can spread the cost out over say 50 to 100 installs and easily see some cost savings.


And quite frankly, if you're a runner... that time is probably better spent A. creating fake/stealing SINs & licenses B. other prep work, like spoofing a secondary lifestyle for a safehouse C. spoofing up the lifestyle (what soy paste again... it'd be nice to get some real steaks delivered for the grill).


Though overall, I find SOTA is the easiest way to handle it. And I don't understand at all the frustration people feel at it. 10% to get a cracked copy. Then 5 or 10% of the marginal 5->6 cost added to monthly lifestyle to keep it up to date. (depending on whether it degrades every month or every 2 months).

Or, you just buy the program and get free patches for life. Most players are going to be more willing to spend a few extra nuyen up front, then worry about the bookkeeping and nickel and diming every couple months to keep the rating up. Hell, most GMs don't want to deal with that anyways.