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#151
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
The cost/benefit analysis still comes into play. If a live security mage costs too much, then you're going to look for alternatives to that live mage. Biofiber, wards, guardian vines, and all those tricks will be very useful in this regard. However, when it comes to protecting your guards (also a significant investment, IIRC a Blackwater merc makes $150,000+ a year, plus the cost of training and cyber) the only forms of spell defense is either a live mage or a spirit with Magical Guard. Both are highly expensive. Dude, you're just repeating yourself. Expensive doesn't mean squat. You are assuming, without argument, that security costs more money that it saves. That is flat out crazy. If it did, they wouldn't spend so much on it. Security must protect at least as much investment as it costs, otherwise they wouldn't have it. Chances are, being that these are corporations for whom everything is the bottom line, they use cost cutting measures to ensure that security always costs less than the money it saves, making it a net gain. Things that cause a net gain in loss prevention are not expensive. They are free, because the money you spend on them is money you would have lost if you didn't have them. That money can be completely written off as offsetting a loss -- by preventing losses, security pays for itself. Things that pay for themselves are not "expensive" as you put it, they are money makers as far as the balance sheet is concerned. An investment that costs 150k and saves you 250k in losses that otherwise would have occurred is not an "expensive" investment, it is a very smart investment that returned 60%. And they don't even need a 60% return -- I'm sure that on something like security, they can scrape by with as low as 2-3% return. As long as security isn't a drain on capital, they can spend as much as they want on it. The only time they have to stop spending is when they're overspending, where security costs more than the losses it prevents. But you're going to need quite a lot of security before that hapens. Also, you're still assuming, without argument, that salaries in the 2070s will be comparable to salaries today, even after having been refuted. Rentacops are not even comparable to blackwater mercs. Blackwater are soldiers who are too hardcore for the regular military, almost all of them are ex special forces, and they probably left because they'd rather tromp around and shoot people than become officers. Blackwater are essentially elite mercs, so you can't use their salary as the baseline corporate security guard. The baseline corporate security guard sucks really badly, if you check the grunts in SR4A. His primary job is not really to go toe to toe, but to trip the alarm and summon the high threat response or turn on the automated defenses when Shadowrunners show up. The baseline guard has only average combat skills and physical abilities, he's probably got no military training or education. He's probably lucky if he can pull down a Middle lifestyle, which is 60k per year. And let's not forget, corporations who own their own enclaves can probably provide a lifestyle to their employees at below cost. A mage might expect a high lifestyle, but instead of it costing them 120k per year, it would probably cost significantly less because they don't have to profit, they can get things for their employees at cost. And you're making the faulty assumption that wagemages would get paid a serious cash salary. That sounds like a dumb thing for the corps to do. You don't pay employees cash, that lets them do what they want and buy what they want. And the worst part is, they stop needing you. A mage who made double his living expenses could leave the corp after 10 years and not think twice about it. They don't want that. I imagine that they provide employees with living expenses, plus a certain amount of corpscrip which can only be spent on things available from the corporate stores. That way they keep people dependent on the corporation. For mages, they doubly need to keep them on a tight leash, because they're afraid of the things that a mage can do against the corp if they become disgruntled. If you think that they treat mages with the utmost solicitousness, you're way off base. They give the bare minimum they can. Why? Because competition is not real in the 2070's. The corporations don't compete with each other on salary, because they all pay the same crap salaries on the same crap terms. What they depend on are programs to root through existing corporate citizens, find the magically awakened, train them, and indoctrinate them into willing wageslaves. They are not like today's doctors, they don't generally graduate college and become free agents to the highest bidder. The very best might be like that, but the vast majority of mages, like the vast majority of everyone in Shadowrun, are basically serfs belonging to corporate interests. You're thinking free market economics when it comes to employment, and you're flat out wrong. You should be thinking more like corporate feudalism. |
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#152
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
And let's not forget, corporations who own their own enclaves can probably provide a lifestyle to their employees at below cost. A mage might expect a high lifestyle, but instead of it costing them 120k per year, it would probably cost significantly less because they don't have to profit, they can get things for their employees at cost. And you're making the faulty assumption that wagemages would get paid a serious cash salary. That sounds like a dumb thing for the corps to do. You don't pay employees cash, that lets them do what they want and buy what they want. And the worst part is, they stop needing you. A mage who made double his living expenses could leave the corp after 10 years and not think twice about it. Real world, most people's living expenses will grow with their salary, if not faster. Very few people will save half their salary any more now that people will do that now. How many people do you know who put 50% of their money away vs people who have maybe month or less in savings? I know maybe two people who save anything like that and a lot more who are maxed out on credit cards, etc. |
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#153
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Shadow Cartographer ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 ![]() |
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#154
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
Real world, most people's living expenses will grow with their salary, if not faster. Very few people will save half their salary any more now that people will do that now. How many people do you know who put 50% of their money away vs people who have maybe month or less in savings? I know maybe two people who save anything like that and a lot more who are maxed out on credit cards, etc. That's kind of beside the point. The point is, corps will not hand people huge gobs of cash and say "here, go nuts!" At least, not unless they're executives. Wage mages are kept on a tight leash, you don't want them procuring unofficial magical supplies, or building up a retirement account that would let them leave the corporation. You want them dependent on their employer and the employer's pension and benefits. Shadowrun megacorps are not like modern global companies, they're more like the GM of yesteryear. Once you join up, you don't leave. You don't get rich unless you're an executive, but they take care of you from cradle to grave. It might be economic nonsense, but it's fiction, not a prediction. That's the way it works. Mages are even more tied down to the corporation than other wageslaves because a) they don't want to let mages go, and b) they pose a security threat to the corp itself and can't be given a long leash. |
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#155
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Shadow Cartographer ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 ![]() |
If you think that they treat mages with the utmost solicitousness, you're way off base. They give the bare minimum they can. Why? Because competition is not real in the 2070's. The corporations don't compete with each other on salary, because they all pay the same crap salaries on the same crap terms. What they depend on are programs to root through existing corporate citizens, find the magically awakened, train them, and indoctrinate them into willing wageslaves. They are not like today's doctors, they don't generally graduate college and become free agents to the highest bidder. The very best might be like that, but the vast majority of mages, like the vast majority of everyone in Shadowrun, are basically serfs belonging to corporate interests. You're thinking free market economics when it comes to employment, and you're flat out wrong. You should be thinking more like corporate feudalism. Nice. But don't forget the softer ways of keeping the magicians tame too. When their partner is bound to the corp by a long-term contract, they're stuck. When their children are enrolled in a corp school, paid for by the corp (but with reimbursement fees for withdrawing them of course), then they're stuck. But it's not all chains. I'm sure the corps do what they can to give the mage a comfortable and well-respected position within the corp. After all, people who talk to invisible friends and engage in bizarre exercises such as starvation to improve spiritually themselves are not the sanest of people (or don't appear so). One of the reasons in my game that you get magicians running the shadows when they could be on easy street, is that they're just too Cream Crackers for corp life. (Though that tends to be the shamans, not the hermetics). K. |
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#156
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Grand Master of Run-Fu ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 ![]() |
That's kind of beside the point. The point is, corps will not hand people huge gobs of cash and say "here, go nuts!" At least, not unless they're executives. Wage mages are kept on a tight leash, you don't want them procuring unofficial magical supplies, or building up a retirement account that would let them leave the corporation. You want them dependent on their employer and the employer's pension and benefits. Shadowrun megacorps are not like modern global companies, they're more like the GM of yesteryear. Once you join up, you don't leave. You don't get rich unless you're an executive, but they take care of you from cradle to grave. It might be economic nonsense, but it's fiction, not a prediction. That's the way it works. Mages are even more tied down to the corporation than other wageslaves because a) they don't want to let mages go, and b) they pose a security threat to the corp itself and can't be given a long leash. Sure they will. They'll hand them corp scrip, which is worthless outside the corporation. However, the goods that you can buy with corp scrip have to come from somewhere, which means it's not free for the Mega, either. Mages can be tied down by having ritual samples kept on file; you don't quit, or you risk something nasty popping out of astral space some dark night. The point is, live mages are expensive and rare, too expesnive and rare to be showing up all over the place. Spirits bound long-term are also going to be a rarity. Thus, most guards are going to be doing without Counterspelling, or any other defense against direct combat spells. |
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#157
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
The point is, live mages are expensive and rare, too expesnive and rare to be showing up all over the place. Spirits bound long-term are also going to be a rarity. Thus, most guards are going to be doing without Counterspelling, or any other defense against direct combat spells. I don't get it. I explain to you twice why the word "expensive" make no sense in this context. Your counter is to repeat the word as if I had been yammering about nothing at all. Is this what you consider argument? |
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#158
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
No, you've stated that it makes no sense but you have not explained it even once.
Why this resource of all the resources that Mega-corporations squabble over? Why is this one immune to the rules of supply and demand? Why have the Mega's co-operated in this one area to drive costs down artificially? Mega-corporations are at war. Economic war at best but war none-the-less. If you can take a Mage from your competitor you gain and he loses security. Lose a Mage and your bottom line is hit. If Mages feel hard done by they will leave and your competitors will be lining up to take them from you. Pay them in Corp Script sure, but pay them enough that they can't see the bars or don't care. Just like Scientists and Programmers a Corp's Mages are an irreplaceable resource. You can at least train new Scientists, Mages don't just grow on trees.... |
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#159
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 ![]() |
QUOTE The point is, live mages are expensive and rare, too expesnive and rare to be showing up all over the place. Spirits bound long-term are also going to be a rarity. Thus, most guards are going to be doing without Counterspelling, or any other defense against direct combat spells. As has been explained, expensive has nothing to do with it. If they save slightly more $ then they cost, a corp will pay. Rarity is actually a selling point to contract out your security. One mage can be spread out quite a bit, BECAUSE of their rarity - how likely is it that someone will bring significant magical assets to bear? Not very. I'm curious as to how "free-market" you run your SR world. |
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#160
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
Wait, sorry, what?
So we are agreed that Mages are expensive and rare but worth paying the cash for? I was under the impression we were talking about contracting out Magical defence. In which case it is expensive. Endof. If it is only the Mega's that can afford in house Mages and they recognise their great value and also the value of monopolising them then this creates a situation where contracted out Magical Support is artificially expensive. It is in the interest of the Mega's to keep them all to themselves, in fact it makes it easier to pick off the minor league competition who cannot afford the enormous cost of the tiny number of Mages not under Mega-corporate control. |
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#161
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 ![]() |
No, the point was that mages may be expensive, but the reason for their expensiveness (rarity) also allows them to be used widely and for reasonable costs in order to provide magical security for many smaller corporations.
QUOTE If it is only the Mega's that can afford in house Mages and they recognise their great value and also the value of monopolising them then this creates a situation where contracted out Magical Support is artificially expensive. .Your employee costs 250k. He nets you 1mil+. Easy decision to employ him, no? In fact, the hardest part would be recruitment and retention - yet the contract firms have a selling point a Mega won't: he never has to show up unless absolutely necessary. As long as he's willing to have a commlink on him at all times, he can go on with his life and spend his money however he pleases until he's called in to provide backup, or spend the 30 seconds to bring up a bound spirit and loan a service out. You focus too much on dollars and cents. |
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#162
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
the reason for their expensiveness [] allows them to be used [] for reasonable costs 'Sorry, what? Just to be clear here. Al'Queda loonies trained in flying planes into buildings are pretty bloody rare. The degree of security used to protect against them is somewhat disproportionate. Imagine if you could only defend against them with a group that was just as rare. Demand for these services would drive the price up to the point that only the richest and the most important could afford them. |
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#163
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
Your employee costs 250k. He nets you 1mil+. Easy decision to employ him, no? In fact, the hardest part would be recruitment and retention - yet the contract firms have a selling point a Mega won't: he never has to show up unless absolutely necessary. As long as he's willing to have a commlink on him at all times, he can go on with his life and spend his money however he pleases until he's called in to provide backup, or spend the 30 seconds to bring up a bound spirit and loan a service out. You focus too much on dollars and cents. Sorry, you edited that while I was replying. Why do you think the Mega's would tolerate that shit? One can assume that the Mega's are the Mega's precisely because they did not tolerate it. They snapped these fledgling companies up when they first appeared, gave all the Mages a 50% pay rise and kept them all exclusively in-house. Their Astral Security became impenetrable and all their minor league competition were wide open for being picked off by the big boys the instant they came up with anything of any value. |
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#164
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
No, you've stated that it makes no sense but you have not explained it even once. I did explain it, but apparently you did not understand. Which I get, because I explained it in a very verbose way, and you may not be familiar with the concepts. Easy to gloss over or misunderstand. Here it is in simplified form: Every asset on a corporate balance sheet is two numbers: cost and benefit. Cost is what you spend on it, benefit is what it earns you. In order to find out the net value of an asset, you must subtract cost from benefit. The numbers are 100% meaningless independently. For instance: If something earned me a million yen, that's good, right? Not necessarily. If it cost me ten million, its value is minus nine million, which sucks. Just the same, if it only cost me a hundred grand, and it earned a million, its value is 900 grand, which is a superb return. If something costs me x, and its benefit is x, then its value is 0, which means that as far as balance sheets are concerned, it was free. So you understand now? Saying that a mage costs the corp 250k (to take an arbitrary number) is actually not saying anything at all. You must look at both numbers: cost AND benefit. Subtract cost from benefit. If mage costs 250k, but he prevents even 251k of losses, he made 1k for the corp. He was not expensive, he was profitable. An investment with a net gain does not count as a loss, no matter how high the cost is. As such, the cost of a mage is absolutely meaningless, assuming that he saves as much as or more than he costs by preventing losses. Rather than expensive, mages (used in an efficient way) are cost-free from a corporate perspective. Clear enough? What you and Cain are doing is ignoring the benefit side, and acting like a mage's salary is a loss to the corporation. It is most certainly not, unless it's a mage who just sleeps or smokes pot all day without providing any benefit to the corp. You are also making erroneous assumptions about supply and demand which I have already addressed in my previous posts. Fully functioning supply and demand requires a free market, which does not really exist in Shadowrun's corporate feudalist system. But I won't say more in this post because I want to be clear about the above point. |
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#165
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 ![]() |
Sorry, you edited that while I was replying. Why do you think the Mega's would tolerate that shit? One can assume that the Mega's are the Mega's precisely because they did not tolerate it. They snapped these fledgling companies up when they first appeared, gave all the Mages a 50% pay rise and kept them all exclusively in-house. Their Astral Security became impenetrable and all their minor league competition were wide open for being picked off by the big boys the instant they came up with anything of any value. Sorry, I was trying to make my point a little more clearly. Re: keeping mages in house. How the hell do you make money if you don't sell your services? That's like saying Ares will refuse to contract Knight Errant out to another corporation because they don't want the corporation to derive any value from their service. That's bizarre, and a good way to minimize, not maximize, your cashflow. We know corporations aren't completely 100% at war with each other, because they have collaborate - sure, Corps may periodically be engaged in a pissing contest over one product or even an entire sphere of production, but they don't take counter-productive measures just because it generally inconveniences a rival - they do so for specific, profitable purposes. |
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#166
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 ![]() |
Everyone's acting as though this were a free market. If you grew up SINless in the Barrens then maybe so. But if you grew up in the Arcology then it's not even close.
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#167
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
Shadowun's market isn't free, it's collusively dominated by megacorporate interests. The fact is that Mages affect your bottom line regardless of whether they are on your payroll or not. Dude, you pinch my argument, use it for over a page to support the opposite point and then quote it back to me very slowly and loudly? Support the statement I have quoted at the top bearing in mind this quote. QUOTE BBB p.40 Because they’re so rare, they’re usually valued, paid well, and kept happy. |
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#168
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
[*]Now you've been designated a high-value asset. The next time you go to the hospital for appendicitis or wisdom teeth (or something they have to make up) they install a kink bomb. (Hey, it's a mark of favor, really. You should be proud. And it keeps those evil Wuxing bastards from abducting and enslaving you.) No, thats stupib beyand belif. Their lot more likely to take a ritual sample. |
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#169
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Dumorimasoddaa ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,687 Joined: 30-March 08 Member No.: 15,830 ![]() |
If being a security mage pays so freaking well why dose any mage bother running really its like being born being able to earn more than a doctor. Really combat mage corp/millitary/merc job enchanter working for a corp really even if born sinless you could still get a good pay from illegal work with syndicates.
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#170
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
I seem to recall a piece of fiction from 1st Ed where the child is discovered to be a Mage, I think it was Renraku was the parent corp, and everybody gets an upgrade. The child is taken from the parents but they are rewarded with promotions and better quarters etc.
Mega-corporations are extremely keen to have as many Mages as possible and to keep them as wildly happy with their lot as it is humanly possible to be. Why would they sell the services of their Mages to minor Corps that are merely competition when the parent Mega has more facilities than they can possibly cover effectively with the resources they have? |
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#171
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
If being a security mage pays so freaking well why dose any mage bother running Because a cage is still a cage. As was proposed a couple of pages back it might be the case that Mages are locked into the Mega's by the enormous cost of their education. The only real way to escape that debt is to give up your 'real' life and move into the shadows. |
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#172
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 ![]() |
Support the statement I have quoted at the top bearing in mind this quote. I don't think that we disagree on this quote. Mages are valued and kept happy, but on a short leash. They will make sure you do your job well, but they will also make sure you don't end up doing it for anyone else, ever. The real point I was trying to make though is that expensive is a meaningless word. First you jump on me for not explaining that, then I explain it for a third time. And now you jump on me for something completely different. What exactly do you want here? An actual argument, or just a melee? Just victory for its own sake? |
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#173
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Dumorimasoddaa ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,687 Joined: 30-March 08 Member No.: 15,830 ![]() |
Yeah I can see rebelling but still why run. Get a new job at a corp that is less oppressive become a merc or just work freelance why are you going to risk your life for a 40k job split 5 ways when you can get 250k a year by putting up a few wards and sit on you ass. You might to to responed now and then but hey it pays better tan running a job each week and is safer.
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#174
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 ![]() |
No, thats stupib beyand belif. Their lot more likely to take a ritual sample. I'd imagine they'd do that, too. Both are reasonably cheap, and can get the job done. The kink bomb is faster, and can be executed much quicker than the time it would take to assemble the ritual magic team. But the ritual link is good for lots of other things, too (Control thoughts on the new Wuxing Department Head!). They wouldn't necessarily let you know that they'd done it, if they thought that would hurt employee morale too much. But there'd be rumors about that mage in the Theoretical Planar Ascention division that had a convenient aneurysm during an extraction. |
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#175
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,666 Joined: 29-February 08 From: Scotland Member No.: 15,722 ![]() |
The real point I was trying to make though is that expensive is a meaningless word. Yes, to the Mega-corp's that own most of the Mages. However a AA trying to contract such services in will find it extraordinarily expensive. Your cost benefit analysis merely emphasizes the fact that most of the Mages will be under Megacorporate control. The cost of allowing the minnows in the corporate pool access to decent Astral Security is to high to risk. |
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