Wow, I'm even getting very interesting ideas I wasn't expecting, I really like this.

As far as the HK Urban Fighter goes, wow. What an awesome gun when I really need to get a decent pistol into a high security environment. No mods sucks, but I would be confident in getting that thing inside of just about anywhere (and compared to the Raecor Sting, this is heaps better).

At the same time, I'm seeing the Ruger Thunderbolt bearing most of the attention for badass pimping of damage. I do see some Ruger Superwarhawk suggestions, and while cylinders don't leave shell casings, there are options for caseless ammo and the firing capacity of the Superwarhawk leaves much to be desired (don't know how much an expanded cylinder gets it up to, though).

I think burst fire is really helpful to actually kicking the damage of the heavy pistol into an 'acceptable' full-on combat option, as the selling point for most assault rifles tends to be their ability to conduct burst fire and sometimes autofire.

I also kind of liked that heavy pistol that broke down into a set of what appeared to be toiletries, although I think the HK Urban Fighter is a bit of a better choice. I could still get through airport security with either, and the HK Urban Fighter can be drawn and fired immediately.

FYI, I have somewhat been avoiding anything with an availability over 12, as getting the Restricted Gear Quality is something I'm shying away from and I'm in the process of chargen at the moment. At the same time, knowing what I can aspire towards getting after chargen is also quite awesome.

I wouldn't as that ceramic component thing doesn't help at all agains cyberware scanner that only needs one succes to detect a weapon( and thats almost quranteed with a rating 6 scanner).
So being undetectapul to MAD scanner doesn'¨t really help at when trying to get inside high security places.

Great Scott! I had completely overlooked how unfair that is. Anything non-biological? One hit for all weapons? No form of concealment applies? The only way to get anything past that would be to hack it first, and even that would probably require uploading a video to it, because it processes video. Damn.

DS, we need to houserule this shit, stat. I have two ideas; Alpha/beta/cyberware increases the threshold by up to 3, so I'd have no problem ruling that ceramic/plasteel increases the threshold by the same amount. Otherwise, it says that the scanner detects the weapon's profile. What if you changed the profile in some way? Maybe Custom Look would actually raise the threshold, because it's now different from what's in the scanner's database?

Easy Breakdown could help as well, since it then needs to be set up to recognize all the pieces and parts as well as being able to recognize the whole weapon.

Umm...wouldn't you just holster the thing instead? One nice thing about pistols is that you can conceal them just fine with a loose shirt.

I would go with an Ares Predator IV because of the free smartlink and the 15+1 capacity. Add an under-barrel flashlight to the ubiquitous P1913 rail underneath, a threaded barrel for when you want to use a suppressor, slap on a personalized grip so you never suffer from recoil penalties, and you're pretty well good to go with a 100% legal defensive weapon that is concealable and gives you the ability to fight your way to a better weapon.

Get yourself a Concealable holster and you'll be set for a night on the town.

How exactly do you see a loose shirt helping against millemeter wawe detection system that can see throught thick clothing.

If the security is that crazy, why would you risk your whole run for a heavy pistol? If you're going to try to sneak in a weapon passed some crazy security with millimeter wave radar, ultrasonics, and big ork guards with big black shotguns I would suggest going for the gusto, homie. At least go for a SMG or something, fer chrisakes.

I wouldn't relly call that a crasy level of security, i would think that cyber ware scanner are pretty damn common.

any riggers in the house gonna mention a pilot upgrade? a propulsion system? my current character has a ruger superwarhawk with a limping propulsion system and a targeting 4 program, plus the option to use sensor guided targeting and to take 2 IP's on its own

But they really aren't all that common. Think about metal detectors today. How many do you see in your daily life despite them being fairly cheap and easy to use? Now add a new level of complexity in that not only do you have to buy the scanner, you also have to train the guy to use it. You spend the money on this expensive training because if they screw the pooch and nab the wrong person on a false positive, they just earned your company a fairly hefty lawsuit for unlawful detention, personal damages, and generally making their feelurz hurtsezed.

If you think that there is an anti-corp mentality in the judicial system now, wait until they're as powerful as the corps are in SR...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the pilot upgrade and propulsion system, while awesome, weren't so useful when you were holding the weapons yourself.

Now, here's a dreadfully entertaining tactic that I hope to employ myself, but it's so sticky from a rules POV that I thought I'd bring it up to get y'all's opinions. In Augmentation (pg43), there is described the External Weapon Mount. Basically, you install it in your full cyberarm or cybertorso for 7 capacity slots, and you can stick a SMG or smaller weapon on it with a motorized pivoting system that has a 15 degree pivoting range. Basically, you strap a gun to your arm/shoulder and it shoots wherever you point the appropriate limb.

Here's my idea; take 4 Ruger Super Warhawks. Modify each of them with Electronic Firing and SA rate of fire. Install Pilot into each of them, I'm not sure how much a high rating matters here. Install each of them into External Weapon Mounts, two into each arm. Subscribe all of them as a single device, so one Command can be issued to all of them. Put a lot of skill points into Gunnery, and acquire a highly rated Command program. Point both arms at someone you don't like, and Command the guns to fire 8 separate attacks into him. Even if you're doing stun damage initially, the first 4 shots will probably throw enough wound penalties on troll's avoidance roll to make some called shots reasonable.

Note that the same could be done with SMGs if you're ok with giving up a little damage for ammo capacity and the ability to whip out autofire when necessary. Throwing enough recoil compensation to handle a burst or two wouldn't be tricky; and if you wanted to go all out, make each arm bulky and throw a gyro stabilizer into each of it.

Are there any glaring rule violations here?

Yeah they so powerfull that they have their own laws and they only have to follow those laws in their own buildings, so law suites aren't a problem.

I don't think using cyberware scanners requires any kind of training actually. It just scan you and shows anythink relewant it detact to quard standing nearby.

So again...why are you going in where there are cyberware scanners? You know they're there, why go through them? Most will be clearly marked by guard positions and/or gateways, security zones, etc. I can see it if you have to, but I can also see where a bit of the ol' Seven Ps will get a modded out SMG and/or AR through to a location where you can use them.

Yes. many.

One, the WEAPON itself isn't the drone. The mount itself is considered a 'smart firing platform' and the drone. You simply are putting the weapon into a drone mount. (there's little difference between what you're doing and installing a LMG onto the weapon mount on a doberman). If the weapon is in the mount, it's not in position to be self-mobile.

You can put 4 pistols in 4 external mounts using up almost all the capacity of the limb. Each gun makes it's own attack as would a normal subscribed drone. But NOT as a simple action (the simple action commands the drones). As a drone you've moved from using pistols to the drone/vehicle Gunnery skill (which requires a complex action on the part of the drone to fire).

At that point each drone rolls it's pilot + gunnery(pistols) autosoft to make the attack. So only 4 attacks... (leading to -1 -2 -3 cum... plus wound penalties). Most of your mods are pointless for this use. (the pistols aren't smartlinked as are required, limited mobility isn't going to help you at all, electronic firing isn't going to help w/ recoil as SS is all you can fire anyhow, you'd be better served w/ expanded cylinder and ammo skip, smartgun uplink, maybe enhanced rangefinder for the smartgun).

I think pretty much all GM's are going to balk at your attempt to put a drone inside a drone, and use it to claim you can fire twice as the mobility granted is barely enough to make the gun crawl, let alone aim itself. And if it was... the first drone would be have it's own aiming vastly complicated as it tries to move it's own mount to aim, while the gun tries to aim.

Really still digging the Ares Predator IV for legality, internal smartgun system to start (especially at a cheap price), and the fact that the Ruger Thunderbolt (if I'm not mistaken) is a fairly distinctive weapon (the sound of it firing is related to its model name, if I'm not mistaken). In addition to it being 12F and Lone Star's pet baby, I think I'd be fine with the Predator.

My biggeset problem is recoil compensation. By RAW, I'm fairly certain gas vents are a no-no on pistols (which I'm fine with). My question is, are there other ways of getting RC on a pistol other than Personalized Grip or Electronic Firing (the two don't overlap, so woo hoo on that one).

I'm leaning away from the Ruger Super Warhawk because I don't like the notion of specializing in revolvers, although if I can't get good RC out of the Ruger Thunderbolt, it may be the best choice for brute force damage after considering all possible upgrades.

With a Ruger Thunderbolt with personalized grip or electronic firing, I have a Recoil Compensation of 3. This would let me fire a short burst and a follow-up single shot in one IP without recoil penalties at all. However, if I could get that RC up to 6, I could do a long burst (if I upgraded it to FA) followed by a single shot (if also upgraded to SA), or two short bursts in one IP. The question is, is this doable?

What RAW-legal pistol is going to actually crank out the most single-target damage? Assumptions that the character has a soak pool of at least 14 (ballistic armor of 8-10 and Impact Armor of 4-5 are quite fine for expectations, too) would probably be a workable model, because at this point I think if I'm facing that 30+ dice soaking Troll, I'm shooting Manabolt at it (or Stunbolt, or whatever, or hoping if I'm not the mage my buddy is). Also, assuming you can hit, narrow bursts are preferred to wide bursts, no?

Predator is cheaper. Thunderbolt has no 'distinctive sound', is RAW character-generation legal (Restricted, not Forbidden), has an included Smartgun System (or Laser Sight, depending on what you pay), & is vastly more effective with minor modifications.

It takes 4 slots to give the Predator Burst Fire or Full Auto. It takes 2 slots to give the Thunderbolt Semi-Auto and Full Auto (although putting FA on either is not the best option).

The Thunderbolt can only fire Narrow Bursts, but that is easily compensated for by the 2 free Recoil Compensation (that stacks with everything). Personalized Grip increases that to 3, which is plenty usually. Up your Strength to 6 if you want it higher RAW (easy enough to do - especially post-generation).


The Thunderbolt & Warhawk are hands-down the best Heavy Pistols (post-modification) for combat effectiveness. Certain jobs may call for other options (holdouts / ceramic for stealth, or Predator for blending into gun-toting crowds), but those are exceptions.

With that kind of armor rating i would definedly go with the full-auto Ares Viper Slivergun as it has base DV8 and the +5 to armor is completly compensated by the smaller impact armor value.
That gives you DV18 on a full-burst with the one net-hit needed to hit, so on avarage 13+extra net-hits stun damage, should drop one enemy per burst. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1) +5 AP, vs. usually 2 lower Impact (it is the same often enough you cannot rely on this). No, it is in no way 'completely compensated' for.

2) You are looking at a minimum of -6 Recoil (for typical builds) for firing a Full Burst.

3) The Thunderbolt (or any other Heavy Pistol) is vastly more versatile, & is capable of using significantly more effective ammunition.


While the Slivergun has some application, it is quite far from being a viable 'best pistol setup' weapon.

Thunderbolt w/ Stick-n-Shock can be fired twice, (each with a significantly higher chance of hitting), for each Full Burst your Slivergun makes. the base DV for two hits is 18 (assuming 1 net hit each), resisted with 20 dice (5 Body + 5 Impact [10 - half] ), vs. your 18 DV, resisted with 20 dice (5 Body + 10 Impact + 5). Doing so increases the chance of doing at least some damage significantly, with at least as good a chance of doing equivilent damage, not including Electricity effects, less ammunition used, and cheaper ammunition.

The scenari he posted had 8-10 ballistic and 4-5 impact so yeas it's completly compensated.
And even if it's only 2 points lower impact, that means +3DV and +3AP, that's still prety damn good trade of.

You forget the non-condactivity modification, that i would think to be pretty common, rating 3 would raise that pool to 26 dice and rating 6 would would actually raise their impact armor from 10 to 11.

Misread the statement - saw Body where he said Impact. If your Impact is 5 points lower than your Ballistic, something is wrong - you almost need to specifically try to do that.

Nonconductivity is not at all common. It can easily double the price of armor & is frequently 'worthless'. I do not think I have ever seen it on an NPC except Prime Runners, & even then rarely; it is also rare on PC's (Fire Resistance, Chemical Protection, & Thermal Damping all come into play far more frequently, & thus vastly more useful; I have also seen very few games not using the 'optional' rule of limiting armor modifications, so it might as well be RAW).

The Thunderbolt is also capable of using Capsule Rounds, for significantly greater threat, if more expensive, as well as APDS, which is noticeably cheaper than Flechette, if not character-generation legal.

You also failed to address the Recoil (oh, and regular ammunition, which is significantly cheaper than a Sliverguns only allowed ammo).

I don't know, reading the succestions here it sometimes seems like 9 of 10 runners use stick&shock.

And just to confirm, the Slivergun is supposed to be 8p(f) +5, not +2, right? Every other flechette weapon noted in the 20th anniversary edition seems to reflect this, yet I'm seeing the Slivergun still noted as a +2 for Armor Penalty. I'm guessing this was an oversight during the attempt to update flechette ammunition.

I think the Slivergun has its place, although I'm leaning towards the Thunderbolt. Working with the math myself, I'm observing that the Super Warhawk is probably the best overall for damage, although I really have no desire to end up specializing in revolvers. My only current problem is that with a RC of only 3 for the Thunderbolt, I'm thinking each IP will be a narrow burst followed by a semi-auto attack (making the Warhawk with an expanded cylinder more ammo efficient per IP and more overall damage, assuming the target as any form of armor at all).

I don't even really feel like the Thunderbolt is worth upgrading to FA, because I can't do much to enhance its RC at all beyond Electronic Firing (my leaning) or Personalized Grip. I guess something like an internal silencer, Electronic Firing, Extended Clip, and SA mode. The plan would be to use mostly EX Explosive Ammo or Stick-n-Shock as needed. Flechette ammo is also an option, if desired.

A -7 to hear the gun go off is also a great boon. Honestly, I've never really seen the point of having MAD Scanner penalties unless the gun was invisible to it entirely (why go, "Oh, I've got a -4 to MAD Scanners, I'll just waltz right on through and, damn, they saw it, jail's for me!"

I don't know how easy the internal silencer would be to notice, but that would be the only "forbidden" aspect of the weapon...

Yo dawg, we herd u liek drones, so we put a drone in your drone so you can shoot while you shoot!

...

What?

I wasn't, the only one thinking it.

One... FA on a heavy pistol still makes sense, even w/o heavy duty recoil comp. Suppressing fire rules automatically counter recoil.

IMO: biggest reason to get fire modification on that pistol, to get rid of that narrow burst only limitation. If I'm changing the fire rate, there's no reason the gun is limited to narrow only now. (I generally prefer wide bursts to narrow).

Secondly... if you enhance the magazine size... you can now legitimately use the pistol for suppressing fire. Suppressing fire automatically counters the recoil penalty. So if you carried it as a 'surprise' weapon... who the hell is going to expect the guy w/ a heavy pistol to lay down suppressing fire and put a wall of lead in their direction.

Thirdly... it's trivial to carry two pistols. One for when you're looking for basic SA/BF... and another when you need the full BF/

Fourthly... I can easily get to RC5+ w/o invoking gas vents. (great academic exercise for those looking to make best use of their suppressed weaponry)
2 points built in, Mod: PeronalGrip/ElecFiring +1, Accessory: attachable/collapsible stock +1, Mod: underbarrel weight +1 or cyberarm gyro (+3), enhanced str +more (again easily done w/ a cyberlimb). If you're an adept... adept centering to remove dice pool penalties.
But that's up to RC6 w/ just grip, weight, stock, strength. 5 is all you need for 2 bursts.

The only downside is it takes a lot of space to get an internal suppressor... though you could use an external one too. (internal w/ that -6 is so nice though and that it's not nearly so bloody obvious as an external can).


A good example of a character like this. A melee type who carries a pistol for use when closing. lay down the suppressing fire... everything either A. scatters for cover or goes on full defense... or drops prone. If it drops prone it's now really screwed, as you get a big bonus to slam them w/ your sword/axe as you followup your attack.


FunFrock:
Yeah I can see it now... I put the semi-mobile drone system on this white knight LMG. Now I'm going to tell my doberman to fire twice at whomever I designate w/ 2 wide full-auto bursts. Not going to fly that one.

I hate to bring the conversation back to a topic from which it's moved on, but I want to clarify what I meant.

First of all, my comment about propulsion systems having limited utility wasn't related to my guns-in-mounts-on-arms idea. The External Weapon Mount has its own pivoting motors, so there's no point in putting propulsion on the weapon itself.

Second, my reading of the External Weapon Mount rules says nothing about the mount being a drone, or having Pilot, or anything else along those lines. Therefore, how am I putting a drone in a drone? I'm really just putting a drone in a pivoting socket.

Third, the weapon itself IS the drone. Arsenal, pg 152: "A weapon with a pilot upgrade is equipped with a customized Pilot program (see p. 213, SR4) and becomes a drone in all respects (though with the downside of immovability unless you also install a propulsion system)."

Fourth, no, I didn't state that the gun had a smartgun system, but, since a smartgun system is a requirement for the Pilot system upgrade, I figured I could just assume.

Fifth, my pistol-drones (or SMG-drones) do not use pilot + autosoft to fire. They are drones, which means I can subscribe them as a single device and use Command to tell them all to do the same thing (in this case, fire at a target). However, IIRC you're correct about this taking a complex action; I re-read the rigger rules, and it would in fact take a complex action to issue the drone orders to fire. Thank you for pointing that out, Falconer. I guess I could work around it by using SMGs and firing long bursts, but I'd have to bend over backwards trying to mitigate the recoil on all four guns.

So, to conclude, I'm not convinced my idea isn't feasible, although certainly to implement it I'd have to run it by any GM. However, I appreciate you looking it over and giving me constructive criticism. Thanks.