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EnlitenedDespot
I am a big, big fan of heavy pistols. I just find the notion of dealing with all of the problems with the other types of guns a royal pain in the ass and am not a fan of having invested time/experience into a weapon I can only have around some of the time. As a heavy pistol is still fairly concealable (especially with the right supplemental equipment) and you can generally carry it most places, I'm really interested in making an excellent choice.

My heart is still with the Ares Predator IV, but this thread is really about having the most tricked-out, best all-around pistol. If I'm not mistaken, the Thunderbolt(?) is a really badass pistol with the burst fire but a concern of mine with it is that it only fires burst fire (and the 12 bullet mag).

Anyhow, the point being, whatever is going to hurt that troll with his ridiculous soak pool the most (or at least has the best chance) coupled in mind with the idea that versatility is important as well. So magazine capacity, having multiple options for ammo, concealability, damage code, autofire or not capabilities are all considerations.

What do you think is the best overall heavy pistol set-up with the best combo of overall damage output, concentrated damage output (single target specifically), and versatility? All books may be referenced, though I'm not a fan of optional rules.
Dumori
Humm....

Well there is that 7DV pistol its only one shot however you can mod it to a 2 shot SA gun and depending on you GM 4 shot. With four shots it matches the Thunderbolt and has less recoil the most you'll get is a -1.
Mx
I would propably go with a Ares Viper Slivergun modified to full auto with as much recoil compensation as you can fit and possibly a extended magazine.
That give you 3 DV17 burst(puls one DV15 with extended mag) and should have decend change to cause few points of stun damage to that troll tank.
Dumori
Howver a troll always has amors and the +5 dv with the torll natral armo would disadvateag you the troll would only need to have a total armour of 8 and your pistol will do only stun.

However on a troll stun damage could be a better thing as they will likely have a lower stun track.
Mx
QUOTE (Dumori @ Jun 25 2009, 11:36 AM) *
Howver a troll always has amors and the +5 dv with the torll natral armo would disadvateag you the troll would only need to have a total armour of 8 and your pistol will do only stun.

He was talking about having a chance to hur a troll tank and that can easily have 30+ dice soak pool and 16+ points of armor, so there's no way to do a physical damage with a heavy pistol and stun damage is better anyway as that troll will have a much shorter stun track.
Dumori
True. even then is the extra 1.6 hits again the damage the troll will get worth it?

I'll get the troll 30 soke and 16 armour. Thats 10 hits with no AP base so the 7DV form most pistols would be worthless. The sivergun would do 7DV(form the net hit need to hit) on average with pools this big is the troll had 3 willpower two FA shots at the troll should reach the end end of his stun track. Taking two combat turns to do.

Not bad at all now loading the Thunderbolt with SnS will get you a 9S(e)+1 (form the net hit need to hit) burst droping his armor to 8 and his soke poll to 22 the -1 ap on the heavy pistol would drop the poll down to 21 giving 7 hits on average. This will give you 3s per simple action but with only a 12 round clip it will still take you 2 combat turns to take down the troll.
So now it comes down to cost I dont have the books on me atm but it will take 20 (f) ammo or 12SnS ammo to take down thsi hyperphetical troll. With only one net hit more hit with quicken the troll demiose with the Thunderbolt and an extra net hit on any or all tests will take down the troll in only 9 rounds of ammo. Where as with the Silvergun you will need to have 3 more net hits to take down the troll in 10 rounds and 1 combat turn. However with a similar dicepoll it would take only 6 rounds of SnS ammo and the same lenght of time.

Also using the thunderbolt will only give you -2 on the first shot and -5 on the seconed before RC, where as the Silvergun will give --9 to both shots before RC.

I think the thunderbolt wins out but I dont have my books to cheak pirceing to make sure.
Bob Lord of Evil
HK Urban Fighter, can't be detected by MAD, hermetically sealed ammo, ceramic silencer, compact, 10 round clip, internal smartlink...the assassins pistol. Downside you can't mod it but considering how it is out of the box why would you need to?
Shrike30
Colt Government with an accessory smartlink, and a mod silencer, extended mag and additional clip. 28+1 rounds on tap, 14 of those can be a different type if you want, and a -7 to be heard (-8 with subsonics) with no recoil. My usual preference would be explosive or flechette ammo in one mag, APDS in the other. 2400 nuyen.gif and one slot left for modifications.

Ruger Thunderbolt with built-in smartlink. Mod on an extended magazine, sound suppressor, semiautomatic fire mode and a personalized grip, you're rolling around with 15+1 capacity, 3 points of recoil comp in a SA/BF handgun, and a -6 to be heard when firing it. 2650 nuyen.gif

Walther Secura Kompakt with an accessory smartlink, mod on an extended mag, gecko grip, personalized grip, reduced weight, and a silencer. 11+1 capacity, no recoil, more concealable than the average heavy pistol, and it's small size, light weight and the gecko grip means you can stick it nearly anywhere (say, your armpit under a t-shirt or to the backside of a painting) without it being as obvious as most weapons with similar firepower. Hey, the gun you're carrying when you meet the troll is a lot better than the bigger one in your drawer at home. 2300 nuyen.gif

Ruger Super Warhawk with an accessory smartlink, modded on ammo skip system, semiautomatic fire, increased cylinder, and an underbarrel Yamaha Pulsar. 8 rounds of heavy-caliber ammunition, rapid fire, your choice of which cylinder is under the hammer, and two 8(e)/-half taser barbs to take the wind out of his sails, for 1700 nuyen.gif

I have more fun with machine pistols, personally... the TMP and the 5-7C are both good platforms for building guns that can throw down a ridiculous amount of fire and still have a serious chunk of recoil compensation built in. A little bulkier than heavy pistols, true... but if you need 'em small, the Fichetti Executive Action can be stepped up to full auto and still have 5 mod slots left. You can also go with something like the Ares Redline (30 rounds off the hip pack you strapped the holster to, 5P/-half damage, and SMG ranges) or the FN-AAL gyrojet pistol (higher damage code to start with, and the potential to fire guided rounds so you don't even need line of sight), but those require special skills.
Cardul
Ruger Warhawk: Enlarged Cylinder, Firing mode modification: SA, personalized grip, external Smartlink

Otherwise(as much as I hate it because everyone uses it)
Ares Predator: Personalized Grip, dual clip(one loaded with gel or SnS, the other loaded with lethal of choice), skinlink, no trigger, and, if you can fit it in, electronic firing.
Shrike30
I go with the Colt Government on a model like that to chop the weapon cost down some... Electronic Firing runs a grand to install, and is 2 weapon slots, whereas an internal smartgun link installed as an accessory doesn't burn any mod slots and is noticeably cheaper to do. You do lose a round in the magazine, but if that's really a big deal one of those mod slots can buy an extended mag.
Falconer
Hmm... nicely tricked out.... lets think. If you like the idea of a SMG in a heavy pistol form factor (smaller, and it gets AP-1 more to boot).

Ruger Thunderbolt (BF-narrow, smartgun, 2RC built-in)
Accessories:
Gas3 barrel accessory +3RC
Top Accessory: unused
Folding Stock +1RC

Mods:
1 skinlink
1 Personalized Grip +1RC
1 Firing Modification (make it a full SA/BF, or go for the gold... BF/FA)
2 Additional Clip
1 Extended Clip

All said... Y3350 5P AP-1 base damage... w/ full auto, and 7 points of recoil comp. Enough to actually pull off a full narrow burst w/ a heavy pistol. Not limited to flechette like a slivergun.

Load it up w/ APDS. Full Narrow Burst... 15DV, AP-5, RC7 (+3 more from say a cyberlimb gyro), on a 30 rd (2x15rd) magazine. Physical damage against armor 10 or less.


Also, getting rid of the extra ammo... putting in an internal suppressor. (you can leave the gas vent... smartgun can select whether you want quiet or max recoil comp). You still have a pistol w/ RC4 (enough for no penalty on first burst, and only a -1 on second burst) w/ a fully suppressed heavy pistol.


Also, I'm more fond of skinlink, over trigger removal. The gun can be programmed to be 'safe' if it loses connection to your PAN. W/ skinlink that means if it leaves your hand. Also, stops stupid decker tricks like hacking your gun, or someone w/ an area jammer killing it's signal and rendering the smartgun inoperable. Another one is the Advanced Safety System accessory for stopping people from using your gun against you.
TheOOB
Aside from concealability, dual-wielding is the only advantage I see pistols having as opposed to long arms and automatics. I find the best pistols are designed to either a)super concealable and silent, or b)use special ammo that doesn't care what kind of gun you shoot it from(like stick-n-shock or narcojet rounds).

I personally like a Fichetti Security with an internal silencer, electronic firing, level 3 ceramic components, and a smart-link. Loaded with narcojet rounds you got a super silent hard to detect weapon with enough power to stop virtually anyone in two shots, and enough ammo capacity so you don't need to carry hard to conceal spare clips.
Stingray
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 26 2009, 08:08 AM) *
Hmm... nicely tricked out.... lets think. If you like the idea of a SMG in a heavy pistol form factor (smaller, and it gets AP-1 more to boot).

Ruger Thunderbolt (BF-narrow, smartgun, 2RC built-in)
Accessories:
Gas3 barrel accessory +3RC
Top Accessory: unused
Folding Stock +1RC

Mods:
1 skinlink
1 Personalized Grip +1RC
1 Firing Modification (make it a full SA/BF, or go for the gold... BF/FA)
2 Additional Clip
1 Extended Clip

All said... Y3350 5P AP-1 base damage... w/ full auto, and 7 points of recoil comp. Enough to actually pull off a full narrow burst w/ a heavy pistol. Not limited to flechette like a slivergun.

Load it up w/ APDS. Full Narrow Burst... 15DV, AP-5, RC7 (+3 more from say a cyberlimb gyro), on a 30 rd (2x15rd) magazine. Physical damage against armor 10 or less.


Also, getting rid of the extra ammo... putting in an internal suppressor. (you can leave the gas vent... smartgun can select whether you want quiet or max recoil comp). You still have a pistol w/ RC4 (enough for no penalty on first burst, and only a -1 on second burst) w/ a fully suppressed heavy pistol.


Also, I'm more fond of skinlink, over trigger removal. The gun can be programmed to be 'safe' if it loses connection to your PAN. W/ skinlink that means if it leaves your hand. Also, stops stupid decker tricks like hacking your gun, or someone w/ an area jammer killing it's signal and rendering the smartgun inoperable. Another one is the Advanced Safety System accessory for stopping people from using your gun against you.

I found one flaw with your gun.by RAW "Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols,SMGs,assault rifles and machine guns"
(Arsenal p. 152) and Heavy Pistol is NOT mentioned..
McAllister
Hold on. A pistol that fires full-auto is called a machine pistol and uses Automatics, unless it's a lightly modded Thunderbolt, in which case it's a heavy pistol, and uses Pistols? twirl.gif

My head hurts.
Stingray
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jun 26 2009, 11:25 AM) *
Hold on. A pistol that fires full-auto is called a machine pistol and uses Automatics, unless it's a lightly modded Thunderbolt, in which case it's a heavy pistol, and uses Pistols? twirl.gif

My head hurts.

..just look at basic weapon's description and what skill it use, not modifications..
Mirilion
I wanted to make a human gunslinger myself. It turns out having a customized cyberarm with agi 6, and agi enhancement +3 helps, unless i'm mistaken. Also put in a cyberholster, and a monofilament whip for those "o shi-" moments.I could also go overboard and buy another cyberarm (minus the whip, probably), and get ambidexterity, for use with a gun in each hand, but that doesn't fit my image of the character.

Cybereyes or goggles with smartlink and vision magnification (among other visual enhancements). Snorting some combat drug that enhances agility helps and makes for an interesting character. Probably some sort of ex corp security or ex lone star cop, addicted to drugs and living as a gun for hire.

Not so much into bioware, so no idea if there's anything helpful there.

About the pistol itself. I just use an Ares Predator because of the coolness factor... didn't really put much thought into it.
Falconer
QUOTE (Stingray @ Jun 26 2009, 02:22 AM) *
I found one flaw with your gun.by RAW "Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols,SMGs,assault rifles and machine guns"
(Arsenal p. 152) and Heavy Pistol is NOT mentioned..


Good catch... but on the wrong grounds. That isn't the weapon MODIFICATION gas-vent. It's the firearm barrel ACCESSORY gas-vent. Anyhow, point is moot as the accessory also has that limitation. (learn something new as there's a slew of pistols in BBB & arsenal w/ built in gas-vents)

Not a bad rule for preventing this kind of twinkery though (really how many pistols need 3 points of RC when they're only expected to fire 2 shots per pass).


Still can get more RC from high strength, and cyberarm gyro though. Limiting the uncompensated recoil down to 1 or 2 dice. IIRC, you can still get 1 point RC from a weight done as a mod (not a sliding weight, that's SMG+ only, pistols don't have an underbarrel accessory point to get the weight as an accessory rather than a mod).


Another fun observation... by the book, pistols only have 2 location based accessory mounts. Top and Barrel. But many pistols have built in underbarrel gizmo accessories like flashlights or lasers off the shelf.
Stingray
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 26 2009, 02:59 PM) *
Good catch... but on the wrong grounds. That isn't the weapon MODIFICATION gas-vent. It's the firearm barrel ACCESSORY gas-vent. Anyhow, point is moot as the accessory also has that limitation. (learn something new as there's a slew of pistols in BBB & arsenal w/ built in gas-vents)

Not a bad rule for preventing this kind of twinkery though (really how many pistols need 3 points of RC when they're only expected to fire 2 shots per pass).


Still can get more RC from high strength, and cyberarm gyro though. Limiting the uncompensated recoil down to 1 or 2 dice. IIRC, you can still get 1 point RC from a weight done as a mod (not a sliding weight, that's SMG+ only, pistols don't have an underbarrel accessory point to get the weight as an accessory rather than a mod).


Another fun observation... by the book, pistols only have 2 location based accessory mounts. Top and Barrel. But many pistols have built in underbarrel gizmo accessories like flashlights or lasers off the shelf.

Ruger Thunderbolt W/Personalized Grip,Underbarrel Weight,Advanced rule str->recoil comp,and Internal Silencer,Internal
Smartgun System,skinlink..2 bursts, no Recoil..
Basic Guns that comes with a upgrades counted as unmodified and those upgrades does not count toward slot limit..
DuctShuiTengu
Ares Predator IV w/ Advanced Safety (Explosive Self Destruct), & Gecko Grip; RFID w/ Motion Sensor

Cost with a full clip of Explosive Rounds: 976 nuyen.gif (generous GMs may allow explosive bullets to enhance the damage of an exploding gun, though RAW doesn't give any bonus there).

Throw in a wired connection between the RFID tag and the smartgun, setting it up such that signal that something moved infront of the gun causes it to fire (likely requires a little help from someone with the appropriate technical skills). Remove wireless. Use runs as follows: Stick it to a wall next a door Corp-sec will need to go through to get to you, pointing across doorway. First person through the door gets shot by gun (make sure you're using this in areas where the only people besides your team who are likely to be coming through said doorway - you did warn your team about it - are hostiles). This should result in the rest of their team not charging through that doorway after you until they've done something about said firearm. Advanced Safety causes it to explode if someone who's not you tries to take it off the wall (recommend also attaching a timer, just in case). Hardly the set-up to use for a firefight, and no substitute for a drone for protracted engagements, but works well as a cheap way to delay persuit while you and yours either escape or find suitable cover.
Traul
QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jun 26 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Also put in a cyberholster


In the arm, it's a cyberslide you want, not a holster.
McAllister
DuctShui... that's brilliant. In fact, you could probably slap a Safe Target System on that (200 nuYen) and slap stealth RFIDs on all your friends so you wouldn't have to worry about friendly fire. Stick ten of these in strategic places (the aforementioned doorway shot, or pointing around a turn), and you've got a pretty sweet area-denial system that ignores friendlies for 12,000.

Another idea; you could use the advanced self-destruct to trigger another explosive, either using the shockwave detonator to blow a fat pound of plastic explosive stuck to the wall next to the gun, or stringing detcord from the gun to whatever you need to blow up. If you have Arsenal, I recommend you read the advanced demolitions. I know I skipped it the first time I looked over the book, because it sounds boring as hell (Detonators? Gel? Foam? Breaching and cratering? Most runners just want a nice, easy rocket launcher), but it will almost certainly give you some fun ideas.
Muspellsheimr
Ruger Thunderbolt
- Smartgun System; Internal [Included]
- Firing Selection Change: SA [1]
- Sound Suppressor [3]
- Skinlink [1]
- Extended Clip [1]
- Gas Vent III [Barrel Mount]

Note: As previously mentioned, you cannot, by RAW, have a Gas Vent system on a Heavy Pistol. From what I have seen, though, this is almost universally house-ruled. If you are playing purely by RAW, change out the Sound Suppressor for a Silencer & Personalized Grip - less Recoil Compensation, but still very effective.


Rugar Super Warhawk
- Electronic Firing [2]
- Firing Selection Change: SA [1]
- Increased Cylinder [1]
- Skinlink [1]
- Smartgun System [1]
DuctShuiTengu
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jun 26 2009, 07:39 PM) *
DuctShui... that's brilliant. In fact, you could probably slap a Safe Target System on that (200 nuYen) and slap stealth RFIDs on all your friends so you wouldn't have to worry about friendly fire. Stick ten of these in strategic places (the aforementioned doorway shot, or pointing around a turn), and you've got a pretty sweet area-denial system that ignores friendlies for 12,000.

Another idea; you could use the advanced self-destruct to trigger another explosive, either using the shockwave detonator to blow a fat pound of plastic explosive stuck to the wall next to the gun, or stringing detcord from the gun to whatever you need to blow up. If you have Arsenal, I recommend you read the advanced demolitions. I know I skipped it the first time I looked over the book, because it sounds boring as hell (Detonators? Gel? Foam? Breaching and cratering? Most runners just want a nice, easy rocket launcher), but it will almost certainly give you some fun ideas.


Thanks, though as is, it's more effective as a deterrent than a weapon (its dicepool to hit will range from negligible to nonexistant, depending on your GM). I like the improvements you suggested, though I'll need to look at the rules for explosives a bit more to see how best to implement that one.
Shrike30
We rolled things like ported handguns into the whole "personalized grip" thing... essentially decided that it really just covered overall balance tweaks, custom stippling, some porting on the weapon, a tweaked trigger with a different uptake... the kinds of things that people get done to their personal weapons to make 'em shoot well in THEIR hands. When you slap enough venting onto a handgun to make up for the kinds of recoil that they produce when fired full auto, you've basically moved into the machine pistol category anyways, in terms of size, so there was no real reason to expand gas vents into the smaller frame guns. You want to take a compact-frame semiauto with a full-weight slide and mod the sear so it starts ripping off rounds at 1600, 1700 RPM cyclic? Go for it. Control's just not the strong point here. Make it a little bigger, easier to get your hands on, and large enough that there's actually significant venting going on, and you're into SR's machine pistol/SMG size weapons; the gun has ceased to be a "light" or "heavy" pistol, it's a small automatic at that point.

Short version: we haven't had any need to houserule what you can install gas vents on.
McAllister
DuctShui, if you're worried about hitting things with this set-up (and you probably should be), trying switching to the Remington Roomsweeper. The strap-on smartgun system is only 250 (which is also the price of the gun), and you can set it to fire wide shot patterns. This won't even worry anyone with armour, but it helps as far as indiscriminate spraying goes.

And as for explosives, the only things limiting you are how much time you have in the facility to set up bombs, and how many pounds of boom you want to carry!
EnlitenedDespot
Wow, I'm even getting very interesting ideas I wasn't expecting, I really like this.

As far as the HK Urban Fighter goes, wow. What an awesome gun when I really need to get a decent pistol into a high security environment. No mods sucks, but I would be confident in getting that thing inside of just about anywhere (and compared to the Raecor Sting, this is heaps better).

At the same time, I'm seeing the Ruger Thunderbolt bearing most of the attention for badass pimping of damage. I do see some Ruger Superwarhawk suggestions, and while cylinders don't leave shell casings, there are options for caseless ammo and the firing capacity of the Superwarhawk leaves much to be desired (don't know how much an expanded cylinder gets it up to, though).

I think burst fire is really helpful to actually kicking the damage of the heavy pistol into an 'acceptable' full-on combat option, as the selling point for most assault rifles tends to be their ability to conduct burst fire and sometimes autofire.

I also kind of liked that heavy pistol that broke down into a set of what appeared to be toiletries, although I think the HK Urban Fighter is a bit of a better choice. I could still get through airport security with either, and the HK Urban Fighter can be drawn and fired immediately.

FYI, I have somewhat been avoiding anything with an availability over 12, as getting the Restricted Gear Quality is something I'm shying away from and I'm in the process of chargen at the moment. At the same time, knowing what I can aspire towards getting after chargen is also quite awesome.
Mx
QUOTE (EnlitenedDespot @ Jun 27 2009, 11:29 AM) *
As far as the HK Urban Fighter goes, wow. What an awesome gun when I really need to get a decent pistol into a high security environment. No mods sucks, but I would be confident in getting that thing inside of just about anywhere (and compared to the Raecor Sting, this is heaps better).

I wouldn't as that ceramic component thing doesn't help at all agains cyberware scanner that only needs one succes to detect a weapon( and thats almost quranteed with a rating 6 scanner).
So being undetectapul to MAD scanner doesn'¨t really help at when trying to get inside high security places.
McAllister
Great Scott! I had completely overlooked how unfair that is. Anything non-biological? One hit for all weapons? No form of concealment applies? The only way to get anything past that would be to hack it first, and even that would probably require uploading a video to it, because it processes video. Damn.

DS, we need to houserule this shit, stat. I have two ideas; Alpha/beta/cyberware increases the threshold by up to 3, so I'd have no problem ruling that ceramic/plasteel increases the threshold by the same amount. Otherwise, it says that the scanner detects the weapon's profile. What if you changed the profile in some way? Maybe Custom Look would actually raise the threshold, because it's now different from what's in the scanner's database?
DuctShuiTengu
Easy Breakdown could help as well, since it then needs to be set up to recognize all the pieces and parts as well as being able to recognize the whole weapon.
psychophipps
QUOTE (DuctShuiTengu @ Jun 27 2009, 07:40 AM) *
Easy Breakdown could help as well, since it then needs to be set up to recognize all the pieces and parts as well as being able to recognize the whole weapon.


Umm...wouldn't you just holster the thing instead? One nice thing about pistols is that you can conceal them just fine with a loose shirt.

I would go with an Ares Predator IV because of the free smartlink and the 15+1 capacity. Add an under-barrel flashlight to the ubiquitous P1913 rail underneath, a threaded barrel for when you want to use a suppressor, slap on a personalized grip so you never suffer from recoil penalties, and you're pretty well good to go with a 100% legal defensive weapon that is concealable and gives you the ability to fight your way to a better weapon.

Get yourself a Concealable holster and you'll be set for a night on the town.
Mx
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 27 2009, 07:15 PM) *
Umm...wouldn't you just holster the thing instead? One nice thing about pistols is that you can conceal them just fine with a loose shirt.

How exactly do you see a loose shirt helping against millemeter wawe detection system that can see throught thick clothing.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 27 2009, 09:28 AM) *
How exactly do you see a loose shirt helping against millimeter wave detection system that can see through thick clothing.


If the security is that crazy, why would you risk your whole run for a heavy pistol? If you're going to try to sneak in a weapon passed some crazy security with millimeter wave radar, ultrasonics, and big ork guards with big black shotguns I would suggest going for the gusto, homie. At least go for a SMG or something, fer chrisakes.
Mx
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 27 2009, 11:25 PM) *
If the security is that crazy, why would you risk your whole run for a heavy pistol? If you're going to try to sneak in a weapon passed some crazy security with millimeter wave radar, ultrasonics, and big ork guards with big black shotguns I would suggest going for the gusto, homie. At least go for a SMG or something, fer chrisakes.

I wouldn't relly call that a crasy level of security, i would think that cyber ware scanner are pretty damn common.
Red-ROM
any riggers in the house gonna mention a pilot upgrade? a propulsion system? my current character has a ruger superwarhawk with a limping propulsion system and a targeting 4 program, plus the option to use sensor guided targeting and to take 2 IP's on its own
psychophipps
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 27 2009, 01:28 PM) *
I wouldn't really call that a crazy level of security, I would think that cyberware scanner are pretty damn common.


But they really aren't all that common. Think about metal detectors today. How many do you see in your daily life despite them being fairly cheap and easy to use? Now add a new level of complexity in that not only do you have to buy the scanner, you also have to train the guy to use it. You spend the money on this expensive training because if they screw the pooch and nab the wrong person on a false positive, they just earned your company a fairly hefty lawsuit for unlawful detention, personal damages, and generally making their feelurz hurtsezed.

If you think that there is an anti-corp mentality in the judicial system now, wait until they're as powerful as the corps are in SR...
McAllister
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the pilot upgrade and propulsion system, while awesome, weren't so useful when you were holding the weapons yourself.

Now, here's a dreadfully entertaining tactic that I hope to employ myself, but it's so sticky from a rules POV that I thought I'd bring it up to get y'all's opinions. In Augmentation (pg43), there is described the External Weapon Mount. Basically, you install it in your full cyberarm or cybertorso for 7 capacity slots, and you can stick a SMG or smaller weapon on it with a motorized pivoting system that has a 15 degree pivoting range. Basically, you strap a gun to your arm/shoulder and it shoots wherever you point the appropriate limb.

Here's my idea; take 4 Ruger Super Warhawks. Modify each of them with Electronic Firing and SA rate of fire. Install Pilot into each of them, I'm not sure how much a high rating matters here. Install each of them into External Weapon Mounts, two into each arm. Subscribe all of them as a single device, so one Command can be issued to all of them. Put a lot of skill points into Gunnery, and acquire a highly rated Command program. Point both arms at someone you don't like, and Command the guns to fire 8 separate attacks into him. Even if you're doing stun damage initially, the first 4 shots will probably throw enough wound penalties on troll's avoidance roll to make some called shots reasonable.

Note that the same could be done with SMGs if you're ok with giving up a little damage for ammo capacity and the ability to whip out autofire when necessary. Throwing enough recoil compensation to handle a burst or two wouldn't be tricky; and if you wanted to go all out, make each arm bulky and throw a gyro stabilizer into each of it.

Are there any glaring rule violations here?
Mx
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 28 2009, 12:13 AM) *
If you think that there is an anti-corp mentality in the judicial system now, wait until they're as powerful as the corps are in SR...

Yeah they so powerfull that they have their own laws and they only have to follow those laws in their own buildings, so law suites aren't a problem.

I don't think using cyberware scanners requires any kind of training actually. It just scan you and shows anythink relewant it detact to quard standing nearby.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 27 2009, 01:42 PM) *
Yeah they so powerful that they have their own laws and they only have to follow those laws in their own buildings, so law suits aren't a problem.

I don't think using cyberware scanners requires any kind of training actually. It just scan you and shows anythink relewant it detact to quard standing nearby.


So again...why are you going in where there are cyberware scanners? You know they're there, why go through them? Most will be clearly marked by guard positions and/or gateways, security zones, etc. I can see it if you have to, but I can also see where a bit of the ol' Seven Ps will get a modded out SMG and/or AR through to a location where you can use them.
Falconer
QUOTE (McAllister @ Jun 27 2009, 04:31 PM) *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the pilot upgrade and propulsion system, while awesome, weren't so useful when you were holding the weapons yourself.

*snip*

Are there any glaring rule violations here?



Yes. many.

One, the WEAPON itself isn't the drone. The mount itself is considered a 'smart firing platform' and the drone. You simply are putting the weapon into a drone mount. (there's little difference between what you're doing and installing a LMG onto the weapon mount on a doberman). If the weapon is in the mount, it's not in position to be self-mobile.

You can put 4 pistols in 4 external mounts using up almost all the capacity of the limb. Each gun makes it's own attack as would a normal subscribed drone. But NOT as a simple action (the simple action commands the drones). As a drone you've moved from using pistols to the drone/vehicle Gunnery skill (which requires a complex action on the part of the drone to fire).

At that point each drone rolls it's pilot + gunnery(pistols) autosoft to make the attack. So only 4 attacks... (leading to -1 -2 -3 cum... plus wound penalties). Most of your mods are pointless for this use. (the pistols aren't smartlinked as are required, limited mobility isn't going to help you at all, electronic firing isn't going to help w/ recoil as SS is all you can fire anyhow, you'd be better served w/ expanded cylinder and ammo skip, smartgun uplink, maybe enhanced rangefinder for the smartgun).

I think pretty much all GM's are going to balk at your attempt to put a drone inside a drone, and use it to claim you can fire twice as the mobility granted is barely enough to make the gun crawl, let alone aim itself. And if it was... the first drone would be have it's own aiming vastly complicated as it tries to move it's own mount to aim, while the gun tries to aim.
EnlitenedDespot
Really still digging the Ares Predator IV for legality, internal smartgun system to start (especially at a cheap price), and the fact that the Ruger Thunderbolt (if I'm not mistaken) is a fairly distinctive weapon (the sound of it firing is related to its model name, if I'm not mistaken). In addition to it being 12F and Lone Star's pet baby, I think I'd be fine with the Predator.

My biggeset problem is recoil compensation. By RAW, I'm fairly certain gas vents are a no-no on pistols (which I'm fine with). My question is, are there other ways of getting RC on a pistol other than Personalized Grip or Electronic Firing (the two don't overlap, so woo hoo on that one).

I'm leaning away from the Ruger Super Warhawk because I don't like the notion of specializing in revolvers, although if I can't get good RC out of the Ruger Thunderbolt, it may be the best choice for brute force damage after considering all possible upgrades.

With a Ruger Thunderbolt with personalized grip or electronic firing, I have a Recoil Compensation of 3. This would let me fire a short burst and a follow-up single shot in one IP without recoil penalties at all. However, if I could get that RC up to 6, I could do a long burst (if I upgraded it to FA) followed by a single shot (if also upgraded to SA), or two short bursts in one IP. The question is, is this doable?

What RAW-legal pistol is going to actually crank out the most single-target damage? Assumptions that the character has a soak pool of at least 14 (ballistic armor of 8-10 and Impact Armor of 4-5 are quite fine for expectations, too) would probably be a workable model, because at this point I think if I'm facing that 30+ dice soaking Troll, I'm shooting Manabolt at it (or Stunbolt, or whatever, or hoping if I'm not the mage my buddy is). Also, assuming you can hit, narrow bursts are preferred to wide bursts, no?
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (EnlitenedDespot @ Jun 28 2009, 12:42 AM) *
Really still digging the Ares Predator IV for legality, internal smartgun system to start (especially at a cheap price), and the fact that the Ruger Thunderbolt (if I'm not mistaken) is a fairly distinctive weapon (the sound of it firing is related to its model name, if I'm not mistaken).

Predator is cheaper. Thunderbolt has no 'distinctive sound', is RAW character-generation legal (Restricted, not Forbidden), has an included Smartgun System (or Laser Sight, depending on what you pay), & is vastly more effective with minor modifications.

It takes 4 slots to give the Predator Burst Fire or Full Auto. It takes 2 slots to give the Thunderbolt Semi-Auto and Full Auto (although putting FA on either is not the best option).

The Thunderbolt can only fire Narrow Bursts, but that is easily compensated for by the 2 free Recoil Compensation (that stacks with everything). Personalized Grip increases that to 3, which is plenty usually. Up your Strength to 6 if you want it higher RAW (easy enough to do - especially post-generation).


The Thunderbolt & Warhawk are hands-down the best Heavy Pistols (post-modification) for combat effectiveness. Certain jobs may call for other options (holdouts / ceramic for stealth, or Predator for blending into gun-toting crowds), but those are exceptions.
Mx
QUOTE (EnlitenedDespot @ Jun 28 2009, 10:42 AM) *
What RAW-legal pistol is going to actually crank out the most single-target damage? Assumptions that the character has a soak pool of at least 14 (ballistic armor of 8-10 and Impact Armor of 4-5 are quite fine for expectations, too) would probably be a workable model, because at this point I think if I'm facing that 30+ dice soaking Troll, I'm shooting Manabolt at it (or Stunbolt, or whatever, or hoping if I'm not the mage my buddy is). Also, assuming you can hit, narrow bursts are preferred to wide bursts, no?

With that kind of armor rating i would definedly go with the full-auto Ares Viper Slivergun as it has base DV8 and the +5 to armor is completly compensated by the smaller impact armor value.
That gives you DV18 on a full-burst with the one net-hit needed to hit, so on avarage 13+extra net-hits stun damage, should drop one enemy per burst. smile.gif
Muspellsheimr
1) +5 AP, vs. usually 2 lower Impact (it is the same often enough you cannot rely on this). No, it is in no way 'completely compensated' for.

2) You are looking at a minimum of -6 Recoil (for typical builds) for firing a Full Burst.

3) The Thunderbolt (or any other Heavy Pistol) is vastly more versatile, & is capable of using significantly more effective ammunition.


While the Slivergun has some application, it is quite far from being a viable 'best pistol setup' weapon.

Thunderbolt w/ Stick-n-Shock can be fired twice, (each with a significantly higher chance of hitting), for each Full Burst your Slivergun makes. the base DV for two hits is 18 (assuming 1 net hit each), resisted with 20 dice (5 Body + 5 Impact [10 - half] ), vs. your 18 DV, resisted with 20 dice (5 Body + 10 Impact + 5). Doing so increases the chance of doing at least some damage significantly, with at least as good a chance of doing equivilent damage, not including Electricity effects, less ammunition used, and cheaper ammunition.
Mx
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 28 2009, 11:37 AM) *
1) +5 AP, vs. usually 2 lower Impact (it is the same often enough you cannot rely on this). No, it is in no way 'completely compensated' for.

The scenari he posted had 8-10 ballistic and 4-5 impact so yeas it's completly compensated.
And even if it's only 2 points lower impact, that means +3DV and +3AP, that's still prety damn good trade of.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 28 2009, 11:37 AM) *
Thunderbolt w/ Stick-n-Shock can be fired twice, (each with a significantly higher chance of hitting), for each Full Burst your Slivergun makes. the base DV for two hits is 18 (assuming 1 net hit each), resisted with 20 dice (5 Body + 5 Impact [10 - half] ), vs. your 18 DV, resisted with 20 dice (5 Body + 10 Impact + 5). Doing so increases the chance of doing at least some damage significantly, with at least as good a chance of doing equivilent damage, not including Electricity effects, less ammunition used, and cheaper ammunition.

You forget the non-condactivity modification, that i would think to be pretty common, rating 3 would raise that pool to 26 dice and rating 6 would would actually raise their impact armor from 10 to 11.
Muspellsheimr
Misread the statement - saw Body where he said Impact. If your Impact is 5 points lower than your Ballistic, something is wrong - you almost need to specifically try to do that.

Nonconductivity is not at all common. It can easily double the price of armor & is frequently 'worthless'. I do not think I have ever seen it on an NPC except Prime Runners, & even then rarely; it is also rare on PC's (Fire Resistance, Chemical Protection, & Thermal Damping all come into play far more frequently, & thus vastly more useful; I have also seen very few games not using the 'optional' rule of limiting armor modifications, so it might as well be RAW).

The Thunderbolt is also capable of using Capsule Rounds, for significantly greater threat, if more expensive, as well as APDS, which is noticeably cheaper than Flechette, if not character-generation legal.

You also failed to address the Recoil (oh, and regular ammunition, which is significantly cheaper than a Sliverguns only allowed ammo).
Mx
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 28 2009, 01:04 PM) *
Nonconductivity is not at all common. It can easily double the price of armor & is frequently 'worthless'.

I don't know, reading the succestions here it sometimes seems like 9 of 10 runners use stick&shock.
EnlitenedDespot
And just to confirm, the Slivergun is supposed to be 8p(f) +5, not +2, right? Every other flechette weapon noted in the 20th anniversary edition seems to reflect this, yet I'm seeing the Slivergun still noted as a +2 for Armor Penalty. I'm guessing this was an oversight during the attempt to update flechette ammunition.

I think the Slivergun has its place, although I'm leaning towards the Thunderbolt. Working with the math myself, I'm observing that the Super Warhawk is probably the best overall for damage, although I really have no desire to end up specializing in revolvers. My only current problem is that with a RC of only 3 for the Thunderbolt, I'm thinking each IP will be a narrow burst followed by a semi-auto attack (making the Warhawk with an expanded cylinder more ammo efficient per IP and more overall damage, assuming the target as any form of armor at all).

I don't even really feel like the Thunderbolt is worth upgrading to FA, because I can't do much to enhance its RC at all beyond Electronic Firing (my leaning) or Personalized Grip. I guess something like an internal silencer, Electronic Firing, Extended Clip, and SA mode. The plan would be to use mostly EX Explosive Ammo or Stick-n-Shock as needed. Flechette ammo is also an option, if desired.

A -7 to hear the gun go off is also a great boon. Honestly, I've never really seen the point of having MAD Scanner penalties unless the gun was invisible to it entirely (why go, "Oh, I've got a -4 to MAD Scanners, I'll just waltz right on through and, damn, they saw it, jail's for me!"

I don't know how easy the internal silencer would be to notice, but that would be the only "forbidden" aspect of the weapon...
Dr Funfrock
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 27 2009, 10:59 PM) *
I think pretty much all GM's are going to balk at your attempt to put a drone inside a drone, and use it to claim you can fire twice


Yo dawg, we herd u liek drones, so we put a drone in your drone so you can shoot while you shoot!

...

What?

I wasn't, the only one thinking it.
Falconer
One... FA on a heavy pistol still makes sense, even w/o heavy duty recoil comp. Suppressing fire rules automatically counter recoil.

IMO: biggest reason to get fire modification on that pistol, to get rid of that narrow burst only limitation. If I'm changing the fire rate, there's no reason the gun is limited to narrow only now. (I generally prefer wide bursts to narrow).

Secondly... if you enhance the magazine size... you can now legitimately use the pistol for suppressing fire. Suppressing fire automatically counters the recoil penalty. So if you carried it as a 'surprise' weapon... who the hell is going to expect the guy w/ a heavy pistol to lay down suppressing fire and put a wall of lead in their direction.

Thirdly... it's trivial to carry two pistols. One for when you're looking for basic SA/BF... and another when you need the full BF/

Fourthly... I can easily get to RC5+ w/o invoking gas vents. (great academic exercise for those looking to make best use of their suppressed weaponry)
2 points built in, Mod: PeronalGrip/ElecFiring +1, Accessory: attachable/collapsible stock +1, Mod: underbarrel weight +1 or cyberarm gyro (+3), enhanced str +more (again easily done w/ a cyberlimb). If you're an adept... adept centering to remove dice pool penalties.
But that's up to RC6 w/ just grip, weight, stock, strength. 5 is all you need for 2 bursts.

The only downside is it takes a lot of space to get an internal suppressor... though you could use an external one too. (internal w/ that -6 is so nice though and that it's not nearly so bloody obvious as an external can).


A good example of a character like this. A melee type who carries a pistol for use when closing. lay down the suppressing fire... everything either A. scatters for cover or goes on full defense... or drops prone. If it drops prone it's now really screwed, as you get a big bonus to slam them w/ your sword/axe as you followup your attack.


FunFrock:
Yeah I can see it now... I put the semi-mobile drone system on this white knight LMG. Now I'm going to tell my doberman to fire twice at whomever I designate w/ 2 wide full-auto bursts. Not going to fly that one.
McAllister
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 27 2009, 11:59 PM) *
Yes. many.

One, the WEAPON itself isn't the drone. The mount itself is considered a 'smart firing platform' and the drone. You simply are putting the weapon into a drone mount. (there's little difference between what you're doing and installing a LMG onto the weapon mount on a doberman). If the weapon is in the mount, it's not in position to be self-mobile.

You can put 4 pistols in 4 external mounts using up almost all the capacity of the limb. Each gun makes it's own attack as would a normal subscribed drone. But NOT as a simple action (the simple action commands the drones). As a drone you've moved from using pistols to the drone/vehicle Gunnery skill (which requires a complex action on the part of the drone to fire).

At that point each drone rolls it's pilot + gunnery(pistols) autosoft to make the attack. So only 4 attacks... (leading to -1 -2 -3 cum... plus wound penalties). Most of your mods are pointless for this use. (the pistols aren't smartlinked as are required, limited mobility isn't going to help you at all, electronic firing isn't going to help w/ recoil as SS is all you can fire anyhow, you'd be better served w/ expanded cylinder and ammo skip, smartgun uplink, maybe enhanced rangefinder for the smartgun).

I think pretty much all GM's are going to balk at your attempt to put a drone inside a drone, and use it to claim you can fire twice as the mobility granted is barely enough to make the gun crawl, let alone aim itself. And if it was... the first drone would be have it's own aiming vastly complicated as it tries to move it's own mount to aim, while the gun tries to aim.


I hate to bring the conversation back to a topic from which it's moved on, but I want to clarify what I meant.

First of all, my comment about propulsion systems having limited utility wasn't related to my guns-in-mounts-on-arms idea. The External Weapon Mount has its own pivoting motors, so there's no point in putting propulsion on the weapon itself.

Second, my reading of the External Weapon Mount rules says nothing about the mount being a drone, or having Pilot, or anything else along those lines. Therefore, how am I putting a drone in a drone? I'm really just putting a drone in a pivoting socket.

Third, the weapon itself IS the drone. Arsenal, pg 152: "A weapon with a pilot upgrade is equipped with a customized Pilot program (see p. 213, SR4) and becomes a drone in all respects (though with the downside of immovability unless you also install a propulsion system)."

Fourth, no, I didn't state that the gun had a smartgun system, but, since a smartgun system is a requirement for the Pilot system upgrade, I figured I could just assume.

Fifth, my pistol-drones (or SMG-drones) do not use pilot + autosoft to fire. They are drones, which means I can subscribe them as a single device and use Command to tell them all to do the same thing (in this case, fire at a target). However, IIRC you're correct about this taking a complex action; I re-read the rigger rules, and it would in fact take a complex action to issue the drone orders to fire. Thank you for pointing that out, Falconer. I guess I could work around it by using SMGs and firing long bursts, but I'd have to bend over backwards trying to mitigate the recoil on all four guns.

So, to conclude, I'm not convinced my idea isn't feasible, although certainly to implement it I'd have to run it by any GM. However, I appreciate you looking it over and giving me constructive criticism. Thanks.
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