Okay where to start....

Firstly... augmentation itself says that each cyberlimb mount is treated as a smart firing platform (SFP).

The smart firing platform is in the BBB under weapon accessories, but it's actually a special kind of drone. It's basically an immobile drone w/ a flexible heavy weapons mount and 6 points of RC as it's a motorized tripod. (it's heavy weapons since it can handle mortars and HMG's). I quote the BBB "The platform is equipped w/ Pilot 3, Sensor 3, and one targeting autosoft at rating 3". It's a drone, only drones use that software.

That's why your 'pivoting socket' is a drone in it's own right. And why I said you're putting a drone inside a drone. The SFP already does what you're asking, fires any smartlinked weapon put into it on command.


Next, you badly misunderstand the "remote control" drone rules badly. You can only remote control one drone at a time, just as a true rigger can only jump into one drone at a time. Or are you telling me you can play all 8 players at once playing Quake/UnrealTournament/TeamFortress2. If you're using a 'drone army' (this is a very common tactic btw), then you use a simple action to order all the drones doggy brain autopilots to do the same thing at once. EG: you order all 4 smart firing platforms to fire at Target Y... then on the drones action, each drone will attack using a complex action (rolling Pilot + Targetting autosoft).

The command program section, even says it allows it to control 'A DEVICE" note the singular. Not multiple devices simultaneously. Then under the rigging section under remote-control "you may control only one drone at a time".


I misunderstood you initially as well. I thought you were subscribing 4 drone SFP's, then the 4 gundrones. Issuing 1 set of orders as single action, then waching the SFP fire the gun once, then the gun fire itself again, each pass. That doesn't fly because you now have two autopilots trying to fire the same gun at the same time w/ both of them using a complex action to do it. As I was trying to figure out why the hell would you put 1 point of RC and make the gun SA, when you could only fire it once per round.


Your biggest problem here, is you read the rules, then don't cross reference them w/ the equipment in the other book. You then intentionally read the rules not in the way they're written, but in the way most advantageous to yourself. You completely ignore the text limiting remote-control to one at a time.

It's not trivial to carry one pistol if you're trying to conceal it, let alone a full-size "heavy pistol" with extra modifications on it. Try walking around with a compact .40 cal tucked inside of your waistband or in your armpit for a few hours some day. You get used to it, but it never stops being annoying, especially in hot weather. If you're not worried about concealing it, you might as well either get a bigger gun or just overmod the handgun (since size isn't really an issue anymore).

Types of recoil compensation that can be applied when using heavy pistols, grouped by incompatibilities (IE, you can't have both if they've got the same symbol, + or *, before them):

Built-in (0-2) -integral to weapon
Strength-based (0-4) -external to weapon
Folding Stock (1) -0 slots as accessory, -1 slot if you want the powered folding mod one.
Heavy Barrel (1 on full bursts only) -3 slots
*Cyberarm Gyromount (3-6) -external to weapon
*Internal Bipod (2 when sitting/prone, 1 when used as foregrip) -3 slots
*Underbarrel Weight (1) -2 slots
+Electronic Firing (1) -2 slots
+Personalized Grip (1 for particular user) -1 slot

The Thunderbolt's 2 built-in RC make it the obvious starting point if you're trying to squeeze as much RC onto a heavy pistol as you can for some reason. Without overmodding, you can get 2 (built in) +1 (folding stock accessory) +1 (underbarrel weight mod) +1 (personalized grip mod) = 5 points of RC onto a Thunderbolt, enough to rip off two short bursts with no penalty, and still have 3 slots left over (enough for a sound suppressor, underbarrel weapon, or whatever). If you are able to overmod, you can get full auto and a heavy barrel onto it, for 1 more point of RC on full bursts (a net -3 penalty) and being 1 over the 6 slots normally allowed.

If you want suppressive fire from a heavy pistol, you need to start with something that's got a higher capacity (either the Viper or the Manhunter, which gets to 20 rounds per mag with an extended mag) or get a GM's OK for using less than 20 rounds when you go suppressive. At this point, you're REALLY better off starting out with a machine pistol or SMG as your frame, because you can start using gas vents to compensate for some of the recoil you'll be getting if you do a long or full burst. You've only got 1 mod slot left once you've given a Manhunter an extended mag and full auto, though, and a Viper is restricted to flechette rounds (not a huge deal, IMO, but some people really dislike them). Vipers modded to be more like a carbine are actually pretty amusing little things.

Getting some external RC is going to be the big benefit here. The cyberarm gyromount is likely your best bet, although being huge doesn't hurt either.

First of all, Falconer, thank you for your patience in explaining things to me, and pointing out to me things that I had missed. I went back to read the External Weapon Mount description, and found the part that says it's an SFP, and then I read that entry in the BBB. You're right; I would be putting a drone in a drone. Actually, now that I've read the SFP text, it occurs to me that I don't even need a Pilot upgrade in the guns; I can theoretically do everything I envisioned using the Pilot programs in the SFPs, and putting smartlinked non-drone guns in the firing platforms.

However, I have one rule combination that I want to show you, because I think it's important in making this work. The Command program says (BBB pg 226);

"Command programs allow the user to control a device through the Matrix, whether it be a surveillance camera, a drone (p. 238), an agent (p. 227), or an electronic system."

Here's what the BBB says, pg 238;

"A rigger can choose to have multiple drones subscribed as a single device. This allows the rigger to have more devices actively subscribed, but is limiting since all the drones must receive the same orders. Alternately, a rigger can choose to issue orders to a drone and then unsubscribe it and trust its dogbrain to carry out the orders."

The "subscribed as a single device" part is important, because Command can only be used to remote control "a single device." Here's how it would work using your Unreal Tournament example; imagine binding your mouse and keyboard to 4 different characters. You press jump, they all jump. You press shoot, they all shoot. Now, if they were all fighting different opponents, they'd get hosed, because they'd all be forced into synch. However, since all they have to do is aim in the general direction I point their mounts at a single target, I think that's a reasonable application of "A rigger can have multiple drones [drones being the SFPs, which point the guns] subscribed as a single device.

You said I'm ignoring the text limiting remote control to one drone at a time, and that I'm interpreting the rules in a way advantageous to myself. What I hope to show you is that I see my idea as reasonable, given the text I've read; on the other hand, I'm not 100% certain it'd work. That's why I asked.

Again, thank you for going over the idea with me. I can tell you're actually reading my posts instead of assuming things and reflexively arguing, and I really do appreciate your insight.

Hot damn, I for some reason thought the underbarrel weight was not usable on heavy pistols. So Personalized Grip + Base RC 2 + Attachable Folding Stock (probably do as an accessory?) + Underbarrel weight is 5 RC there, for two short bursts. Even a long burst + one semi-auto shot is only a -1 on the second attack. That's a lot more versatile than I was anticipating.

Assuming you can hit with the attack, isn't a DV increase of 2 better than a -2 to the defender's dice pool, unless we're considering that the +2 DV doesn't count for physical damage and an extra net hit possibly resulting from less defense of the defender will count for determining P or S damage?

Only hold-outs can not take underbarrel weight and Ruger Thunderbolt fires only BF mode but you can
always take Firing Selection Change (SA) so it's firing mode would be SA/BF.
If rule of strenght to recoil compensation is in use, no need for Folding Stock..
(it only takes Str 6 to get 1 RC)

that rule about subscribing is talking about issuing orders, not about using command to remote control things. i might allow you to use your trick, but only 1 gun would have a decent dicepool... the rest would be already aiming where the person is not, and would suffer large penalties to hit, probably greater than -6 because you essentially are firing blind, plus you aren't even aiming at the right spot (so you can expect even more penalties)

Mmm. I just read Unwired's "A note on commanding devices," and it seems that the word "command" has been throwing me off. I assumed that since the Command program referred to pg 238 that the text there about subscribing multiple drones as a single device worked with the Command program; however, Unwired clarifies that I have been incorrect this whole time. My bad. In my defense, there are a lot of rules involved.

Next evolution (and this one is pretty rules-kosher); buy/code some Pilot and Autosoft programs, and figure out what to do with my meat IPs while the drones shoot whatever I want them to.

my advice would be to also shoot things.

Forgive me for resurrecting the dead (thread). I think it's better than starting a new one.

My Face Adept is in need of a few firearms, and he's Pistols 2, specialized in SA. The first thing he needs is an all-purpose and concealable weapon.

Colt Government 2066
5P, -1 AP, Electronic Firing Mechanism: RC 1
Modifications
- Integral Smartgun (Doubling base cost)
- Skinlink
- Silencer
- Ceramic Components (1)
- Chameleon Coating
So you add: -2 MAD, -4 Conceal, -4 Perception

All for the low-low price of 3150 .

The next gun is the Ruger Thunderbolt, using some of the suggestions here.

Ruger Thunderbolt
5P, -1 AP, BF, RC 2
+ Integral Smartgun for 400
Modifications
- Skinlink
- Personalized Grip
- Sound Suppressor
- Semi-Automatic

Adds: -4 Perception, +1 RC to 3, SA/BF

Cost: 2200

The odd thing about this is the Sound Supressor. I almost want Ceramic 1 and Cham Coating on it instead.

Does adding Skinlink really take up a slot?

Ruger Thunderbolt
5P, -1 AP, BF, RC 2
+ Integral Smartgun for 400
- Skinlink
- Personalized Grip
- Full Auto
- Extended Clip
- Additional Clip

Adds: 22c, FA, Conceal +2, RC 3

Cost: 2450

The whole point of this is to be put in say Actioneer Business Clothes for a -2. Then surprise! I'm surpressing fire y'all! Not gonna get through a patdown probably, 4 Agi and 4 Palming vs their Agi + Int at 0 mod due to using the Actioneer suit.


This also might allow me to drop Submachine Guns as my Automatics specialty and go for Assault Rifles (with Heavy Weapons-Grenade Launchers spec). It's all fun and games until the Face whips out the Ares Alpha.

If you have to get something through a pat-down, break it down. Easy Breakdown is probably the best stealth mod there is (especially when combined with Ceramic).

Ooh good idea!

Okay this Colt Gov't 2066 has: External Smartgun, Silencer, Skinlinked, Easy Breakdown (Powered), and Ceramic Components.

It comes to 6500 ... is that worth it?

My math was a bit off up there. I removed Chameleon Coating since the gun is for "everyday" use and not with the Chameleon Suit. And it's not necessary either since it's a pistol, so it doesn't interfere I guess.

I'm willing to pay but this seems a bit much. And since the Ceramic Components is doubling the cost of everything the Silencer too should be partly ceramic, right?

Or was that a bad call?

Personally, I think the "everyday" gun and the "no security checkpoint will ever find this" gun should be different. Ceramic/Plasteel isn't really necessary for the former, but it's vital on the latter. Similarly, I want my everyday gun in one piece in case dem fools be steppin', but Easy Breakdown bypasses cyberware scanners (which otherwise detect any weapon with one hit... dayum!). I'd say 6,500 is a great price for the stealth gun, but you needn't pay much more than 2,000 for the everyday one.

Basically, my philosophy for guns (and the devs seem to think along similar lines) is "you can have it easily accessible, or you can sneak it past security, but not both."

Here's a fun trick to defeat MAD scanners; they're not precise, so if you can hide a metal whatsit next to something that'll set off the scanner, you can explain it away. For example, if you have a nice big afro and cybereyes, you could hide a small silencer in your hair. Then, when you walk through the metal detector, it'll beep, and the guards will get out the wand, and when they wave it near your face, you just say "oh yeah, metal eyes, see?" and they'll probably miss the silencer strapped to your skull.

And good point, I don't think there's any reason to chameleon coat a pistol. I think that's more for rifles and the like.

I know this is about Heavy Pistols and all but your comment on the Gunslinger Adept thread got me thinking about the Morrissey Elan.

Peep this:

Morrissey Elan
- Nonmetallic, Light Pistol, SA, 5c
Mod:
Integral Smartgun, double base cost
Skinlink
Easy Breakdown (Manual)
Silencer
Chameleon Coating

4050 Avail: 10

Conceal: -8

It's Chameleon Coated so if you do break it apart it can be stuck all over the place and be quite invisible like. It's nonmetallic so I hope the Silencer is too but if it isn't it's at least small and easily explained away.

No signals too.

It's 4P SA but it should do in a pinch.


The "Everyday" gun will be worn, well, everyday. Apart from the "Backup / No One Can Find This" gun. So the places where I can't carry the Everyday gun I'll still have the Holdout. But the Everyday gun should be plenty stealthy on its own. Cham Coat and Ceramic I think.

I have a "Work" gun, which would be a cheapie heavy pistol. Probably a Predator just because. Then a modified Ruger Thunderbolt for the "surprise supressive suckas!" moments.

I actually have more guns than that Gunadept.

You like chameleon coating, don't you? I'm not criticizing, I just don't see as much of a need for it as you do. But if that's your style, roll with it.

As far as the Elan goes, it's good. I have a similar model on one of my characters, and it's one I sincerely hope I get to play someday. If 4P isn't enough of a punch for you (and when is it?) you can pop in Stick'n'Shock rounds. 6S and half armor is much better than 4P and full armor, plus electricity damage either disorients or outright incapacitates your target. Net hits are important for how long the target is disoriented/stunned, so you have to choose between calling the shot (more damage) and not (more net hits for longer shocky effects).

Well 1000 for -4 Conceal is kind of a bargain to me. I dunno, maybe the novelty will wear off.

That -8 will be inside the -2 concealed holsters of an Actioneer Business Suit or the Synergist Longcoat. Even being pat down that's -10/2 = -5 right? That should take care of the Agi + Int test, broken down or no.

Are you seriously trying to say that chameleon coating helps at all during a pat down.

I'm a fan of the Walther's with my 'Face'
The Secura Kompakt is cheap, easy to find and a bit of a gem with a few mods.
Add in reduced barrel, manual easy breakdown, integral silencer and personal grip will get it through most checkpoints or let it be concealable enough for every day carry.
Not a big magazine, but 9 is probably enough to kill someone quietly up close, clean the gun, remove the grips and peg it into the harbour after.
The normal Secura is also good value with the factory smart link making it very cheap.
I just add a set of personal grips to those, scan it over to remove any RFID's onboard or in the ammo. Decent ammo capacity, does the job good as any and after you've killed a couple of people with it, remove any traces and chuck it somewhere so that its got nothing to do with you when it comes down to forensic evidence. With the way scientific and magical dirt digging in SR is, don't get attached to anything you've killed or shot the crap out of someone with.

The AK's and Hunting rifles with some cheap bolt-on mods is also a fav for much the same reasons, cheap, effective, very easily obtainable and disposable after the job.

Shouldn't it?

Not *just* Chameleon Coating but perhaps due to it being broken down? I apologize though that was getting a bit late for me and I may have thought that.

How exactly do you see the fact that your gun can change color to help agains someone patting you down.

I'd say Easy Breakdown turns the gun into bits that are one step harder to find in a patdown than the weapon itself, so heavy pistol bits would be -2, and holdout pistol bits would be -8. Max is right, though, chameleon coating is very poorly worded in the rulebook; it implies that it's useful for concealing a weapon, when really the giveaway is either A. feeling it in a patdown, or B. spotting the bulge in the clothes, neither of which Cham Coating would really help with.

Imho.

MKK here is what we on the boards like to call an "Ice Cold Pro," I see. Most runners shun attachments in general, but I know many with a soft spot for their firearms!

Did you forget to quote the rest? I said if it wasn't then I'm sorry. But I did specifically mention breakdown with the coating, not just general cham coating. That is, I was referring to the Elan I posted up there. The confusion was when I added the holster/pockets of the Synergist.

But anyway, concealability modifiers are applied (albeit half) during the pat down Agility + Intuition test. So if it's broken apart it can be placed innocuously here and there. They're already in smaller bits.


I like the look of that Secura Kompakt MKK. I'm coming up with 1570 for it with Barrel Reduction, Easy Breakdown, Silencer, Smartgun upgrade and Skinlink, and Personalized Grip.

I really like that.

My suggestion for this would be to conserve as much Essence as possible and be a Technomancer. Compile Sprites and Thread programs to shoot for you!

EDIT: To clarify, this is my advice for achieving the four-gun auto-shooting goal.

Okay I have two Heavy Pistols that are competing as the "Everyday" Gun.

Colt Government 2066
5P SA AP-1 RC1 14c Con: 0
- Electronic Firing Mechanism: -1 Perception to look for shooter
Mods:
- Smartgun External [0]
- Skinlink [1]
- Barrel Reduction [1]
- Silencer [2]
- Easy Breakdown (Manual) [1]
- Ceramic Components Rank 1 [1]

Con: -1, -4 Perception to hear, MAD -2

Cost: 3540

That's enough to get it through many places. It's expensive thanks to the ceramic components which double the cost.

Walther Secura Kompakt
5P AP-1 SA 9c Con: -1
- Has -1 Conceal, Smartlink for 200
Mods:
- Smartlink version purchased
- Skinlink [1]
- Personalized Grip [1]
- Silencer [2]
- Barrel Reduction [1]
- Easy Breakdown (Manual) [1]

Con: -2, -4 Perception to hear, RC 1

Cost: 1570

Slightly easier to hide but will show up on MAD scanners with a single hit with no reduction to the dice pool. Can be somewhat sidelined by breaking apart and placing near metallic objects (that's my flashlight, etc). Much cheaper to replace.

They're basically the same save for the MAD -2 and the clip sizes. Is that worth 2000 ?

And MKK's comments about throwing parts of the gun away appeal to me. A few thousand here and there to replace such guns would be a good idea.

The chameleon coating is meant for the runner with either a dermal sheath running ruthenium polymers, or the chameleon suit. A gun could potentially be a dead giveaway without some means of making it blend with the suit you're wearing. On something like a high powered rifle, could you imagine? They'd really never know where the bullet came from.

Hmmm, here's an idea. My idea of the MAD scanner is it's like a doorframe sized metal detector such as is found in airports; you take out your metal things, walk through, and if it beeps, you have to explain why, slash, they use a handheld version for a finer sweep. What if you put on some greasy overalls and took an armorer kit everywhere? Keeping a disassembled pistol in a armorer kit would be easy, it would take a real gearhead to notice the gun parts hidden in the gun parts. You just put the kit on the conveyor belt, they x-ray it, see what they think it's gonna be, and you're in.

Now you just have to have a good reason why a guy with a toolkit is going wherever you need to go. But it's a touch more convincing then "oh, that's my flashlight."

True.

But if it goes through an X-ray scanner how do you explain the bullets? Unless they're hidden too of course.

Hiding in plain sight is a good idea. But for those situations where you can't wear a disguise. Say you need a piece to go to a meet with a Johnson. Or you're following a lead to some sorta bar or someplace where there's security.

The handyman thing won't always fly. Granted it's more plausible than unnecessarily metallic things you have on your person.

There are such things as plastic bullets in Arsenal. Not as good at distance, I think, or for penetrating armor, but they're plastic.

Every time I get into a discussion about sneaking by security I want to say "hijack a helicopter, and, 15,000 feet above the target building's roof, stop flying and parachute out. Soon, there will be a hole in the roof. Congratulations! You and whatever weapons you want are in the building."

Then I remember the looks that I get from Ice Cold Pros.