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Larme
post Apr 26 2009, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 26 2009, 09:19 AM) *
Nowhere does it say that the character gets the bonus dice's from the toys soft, empathy software says that the user gets +1 die to social test per rating and in the case of an emotitoy the user is the toy not the runner who owns the toy.


I disagree, but this is entirely beside the point. Even if you read the text literally and say that the emotitoy is worthless, empathy software is still too powerful. The price is no real barrier, and someone could load it onto their glasses, or into their cybereyes, or whatever. The toy itself is not relevant, what's relevant is that the software it has is stupidly good, and makes social adepts useless in light of SR4A's cap on social bonus dice. So forget the emotitoy. Forget the damn toy. The problem is the software.
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eidolon
post Apr 26 2009, 07:34 PM
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I think I'd be doing that like this. I explain my reasoning. Take it or leave it.

The emotitoy rolls using its rating. If it gets net hits in an opposed Sense Motive vs. the target, then it can relay its findings to the runner. If it doesn't, it would still relate what it thought it found to the runner. This in itself could be funny as hell.

So at best, it's guiding the runner's actions, not supplying dice to the runner. I get that because of the following wordings:
QUOTE (Arsenal @ p. 60, Empathy Software)
Empathy soft ware can be discreetly used in real time during negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice pool bonus to the character's Social skill tests.


In that entry, the implication is that it's installed in a sensor that the runner is using (in your goggles/contacts/etc.) and running "in" the runners consciousness. The support for that notion is found in the emotitoy entry as illustrated next.

Emotitoys have their own sensor package, as in their description
QUOTE (Arsenal @ p.57, Emotitoys)
Shadowrunners have also embraced the emotitoy craze, bringing their "friends" along to meets to get an edge during negotiations, using the toy's sensors and empathy soft ware to get a read on the other side.
Emphasis mine.

Also, keep in mind exactly what it's possible to glean using the Empathy software:
QUOTE (SR4A @ p.139, Judge Intentions)
A character who wants to use her natural empathy to gauge another character's emotional state, intentions, or honesty can make an Opposed Intuition + Charisma Test against the target's Willpower + Charisma. Note that this sort of "psychological" evaluation is never a certainty--it's just a way for a player to judge what her character "feels" about someone else. It should never serve as a lie detector or detailed
psychological analysis. The gamemaster should simply use it as a way to convey gut feelings the character gets when dealing with another.


So at best, it's like having a very, very limited ability face that can give you advice. One that can tell you that it thought that the Johnson seemed a little angry when he answered your last question (and if it got some hits, it might even be right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

I don't see at all how that encroaches on a Social Adepts potentially ludicrous ability to walk all over anyone else in social interaction. (And I'm not saying that as a harp on social adepts, they're cool.)

edit to add:
I can see that this wouldn't really mitigate your issue with the Empathy software itself, Larme, but remember that these games aren't played in a vacuum. If your group's face wants to be the guy that's really good at social stuff, then the other players shouldn't be loading up massively good Empathy software on high rating sensor suites. But for a group in which nobody really wants to play a dedicated face, this is a neat way to have somebody that's capable of a few social tests without the GM having to dumb down every Johnson or fixer so as not to drastically outgun the players in negotiations and stuff.

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Larme
post Apr 26 2009, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE (eidolon @ Apr 26 2009, 03:34 PM) *
I don't see at all how that encroaches on a Social Adepts potentially ludicrous ability to walk all over anyone else in social interaction. (And I'm not saying that as a harp on social adepts, they're cool.)


Here's my beef. SR4A says you can't get more bonus dice to social skills than your attribute + skill. Now, I could create a character with charisma 6 and skill 6. Add in a specialization, Glamour, and rating 6 empathy software, and I'm looking at 11 bonus dice. That's just one less than the cap, and I didn't have to spend a single point on the Adept quality or buying Magic. There's no need for me to buy Kinesics, Cool Resolve, Iron Will, none of that crap. It's all superfluous because I can get a huge, unprecedented +6 to every social test by using empathy software. I'm not saying that there's no reason to be an Adpet at all, there are still a lot of useful social powers that aren't replaced by Empathy software. But Empathy software is just too easy to get, too cheap, and too powerful compared to Adept powers that cost tons of karma or BP to get. Because of the dice pool cap, a person with Empathy software can actually be quite comparable to a social adept, only without having to spend even a significant fraction of their resources. Empathy software replaces the face even more than an Agent replaces the hacker. Agents, at least, are much weaker than a tricked out hacker. But empathy software is like a face in your pocket, it lets you do everything a face would do, as long as you have a decent level of social skill, which many non-faces have points to get.
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The Mack
post Apr 26 2009, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 27 2009, 06:54 AM) *
But Empathy software is just too easy to get, too cheap, and too powerful compared to Adept powers that cost tons of karma or BP to get.


I agree with you on all accounts.

The only other super cheap +6 bonus I can think of that's similar is using Medkits to add dice to First Aid, which unlike empathy software doesn't really infringe on any single archetype.
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Ancient History
post Apr 29 2009, 04:15 PM
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I'm tempted to suggest we apply the bonus dice cap = skill rating like we did for martial arts.
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Caadium
post Apr 30 2009, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 29 2009, 09:15 AM) *
I'm tempted to suggest we apply the bonus dice cap = skill rating like we did for martial arts.


I like the thought of that idea in general.

For more than just Martial Arts and Social test I mean. I've seen many people say that skills need to be worth more; in fact thats a common complaint about the SR4A changes to Karma costs for attributes. If your skill limits how much circumstantial bonuses you can use, something that can easily be argued for, then suddenly skills do have more value and there is more of a reason to raise them.

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Malachi
post Apr 30 2009, 12:43 AM
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I had this thought too. Basically: the total net of all DP modifiers cannot exceed your Modified Skill + Attribute pool. That means bonuses from equipment (smartlink), 'ware, specialization, and situational would be capped. This makes skills much more important/valuable because it limits the bonus dice you can accept for any given pool, plus it also makes 'ware and powers that Modify the skill rating rather than give a bonus much more important, since a modified skill rating would also allow you to accept more of a bonus.
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Larme
post Apr 30 2009, 03:31 AM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Apr 29 2009, 07:43 PM) *
I had this thought too. Basically: the total net of all DP modifiers cannot exceed your Modified Skill + Attribute pool. That means bonuses from equipment (smartlink), 'ware, specialization, and situational would be capped. This makes skills much more important/valuable because it limits the bonus dice you can accept for any given pool, plus it also makes 'ware and powers that Modify the skill rating rather than give a bonus much more important, since a modified skill rating would also allow you to accept more of a bonus.


This should be in the houserules thread, but that was killed by a turd fire!

It's an interesting suggestion though. I'm not sure if it would have a positive effect on the game though. Most of the time, it wouldn't matter much. Most people are going to have skill + attribute somewhere in the region of 6-10, and it's only the rare skill where you can stack on more than +6 bonus dice, let alone more than +10.

What would it affect? It would, for one thing, be a nerf to many adept powers. They have a number of abilities like Combat Sense and Kinesics that specifically provide bonus dice. Those would become less valuable. The current value of them is that adepts can stack on every single bonus that a mundane would use, and then they get their powers stacked on top, making them the best. With a skill + attribute cap, adepts are less likely to get value out of those abilities.

On the other hand, this rule would make +rating abilities a lot more important. Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute, Improved Ability, Reflex Recorder, and a few of the new RC positive qualities will be hugely important, because increasing skill and attribute rating will let you pile on more bonus dice. The Adepts will take a hit in terms of their bonus dice being useful, but Improved Ability and Improved Attribute will become better. The real issue I see is that you'd start to get a lot of metavariants and changelings. These people are supposed to be the rarest of the rare. But metagenically enhanced attributes are frickin' incredible, and would doubly be so under your proposal. So you'd start seing even more uber rare weirdos, including people with gross deformities from SURGE comprising your teams a lot more often. To that, I say meh. RC races are cool, but most of them (excluding gnomes and fomori) are balanced -- they're cool, but not no-brainers. Your rule would nudge them much closer to being no-brainers, I think.
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Caadium
post Apr 30 2009, 04:22 AM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 29 2009, 08:31 PM) *
The real issue I see is that you'd start to get a lot of metavariants and changelings. These people are supposed to be the rarest of the rare. But metagenically enhanced attributes are frickin' incredible, and would doubly be so under your proposal. So you'd start seing even more uber rare weirdos, including people with gross deformities from SURGE comprising your teams a lot more often. To that, I say meh. RC races are cool, but most of them (excluding gnomes and fomori) are balanced -- they're cool, but not no-brainers. Your rule would nudge them much closer to being no-brainers, I think.


I'm sorry that this is off topic from OP, but I know that your concern would not be valid in any game I run for a couple of reasons. First, I enforce a rule that only 1 player in any group I'm GMing for can ask to make a non-BBB race character. They also know that it has to be well thought out before I say yes to the character as well. Secondly, any changeling characters in my game would only be made after the player saw the following:

QUOTE
gamemasters may choose to take on Negative Metagenic quality selection to ensure balance.


Any character that takes Metagenic Improvement is automatically something I will look at balancing out; and the concept better work for me to even approve that quality.
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Malachi
post Apr 30 2009, 03:11 PM
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I'm starting a new thread on this topic.
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Lilt
post Apr 30 2009, 06:59 PM
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Okay, I've been away for a while, but I just thought I'd chuck my .02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in to the discussion on direct combat spell drain.

To summarize, I feel that the direct combat spell drain changes are just plain ridiculous. I'm glad it's been made optional, but I don't understand why some people feel it's necessary or even a remotely good idea. My summary:
  • Why direct combat spells?
    Fistly, I'd like to know why direct combat spells were chosen for this nerf. From my experience, most mages use guns in combat as there's normally a chance of rolling fewer hits than you hoped and damaging yourself. Why do you introduce mechanics like this only for direct combat spells and not other spell categories like mind control?
  • Increasing force provides better returns.
    Since dice pools became static (give or take foci choice), mages as they progressed have faced the choice between increasing casting pool and increasing drain pool. Now for every 3 dice you add to drain pool, you can on-average increase the drain value by 1, meaning you can cast it at 2 higher force without fear of taking drain. That's 3 more dice in your drain pool to do +2 damage, but with this system you're needing 3 more dice to deal one more damage. Shouldn't it at-least be +1 drain for every 2 hits used to increase drain, to keep it even?
  • Oops, I rolled well, and now I'm dead/unconcious.
    The rules say nothing about allowing a mage to hold-back hits, so as to do less damage yet face lower drain. Let's say that I have a pool of 10 dice to cast with (that's less than most runners) and roll 6 hits (better than a 1/20 chance). My opponent has an attribute of 3 and scores 1 hit. Now I'm doing +4 damage (possibly unnecessary) yet I'm facing +4 drain (which, combined with the base drain, is probably going to put me at-least on wound modifiers). On the flip side, +4 hits is a critical hit, which gives you a point of edge back, but then you start needing to use edge because you rolled well.
  • Weak opponents mean higher drain?
    Let's say you're attacked by a group of spirits on the astral plane, and throw a stun ball at them. Most of the spirits take a little damage, but the presence of a watcher amongst them means that one of them scored 0 hits to resist and so you're at +3 drain from your casting. The weaker an opponent is, the more dangerous it is to throw a spell at them. In-fact, I could see a mage opting to give a weak opponent spell defense just so they could hit a large group without fears of taking too much damage.

    Even against an individual weak opponent, I could see a mage deliberately giving themselves pool penalties so they didn't do too much damage and cripple themselves. They could cast at a low force and see how many hits they got, but then they're only getting 1 damage per drain rather than the 2 damage they'd get by casting at a higher force.
  • Rules should encourage what you want people to do.
    All of the above scream of a badly designed rule. Good rules encourage the players to play how you want them to. If you consider players squinting to give themselves vision penalties, giving opponents spell defense so they don't cripple themselves, and spending edge to avoid some particularly good luck to be how you want the game to be played, then this rule might be good. I don't, however, and I really don't like the thought that some table somewhere might be using this most poorly thought-out rule.
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paws2sky
post Apr 30 2009, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Lilt @ Apr 30 2009, 02:59 PM) *
  • Oops, I rolled well, and now I'm dead/unconcious.
    The rules say nothing about allowing a mage to hold-back hits, so as to do less damage yet face lower drain. Let's say that I have a pool of 10 dice to cast with (that's less than most runners) and roll 6 hits (better than a 1/20 chance). My opponent has an attribute of 3 and scores 1 hit. Now I'm doing +4 damage (possibly unnecessary) yet I'm facing +4 drain (which, combined with the base drain, is probably going to put me at-least on wound modifiers). On the flip side, +4 hits is a critical hit, which gives you a point of edge back, but then you start needing to use edge because you rolled well.


Take another look at that. You can choose to use fewer hit that you roll when casting a spell. Always have been able to, from what I can tell. Prior to the optional rule, there wasn't much of a reason to do it though.

Incidentally, that's what caused the big stink about overcasting.

-paws

PS I too am glad that the rule was made optional.
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Lilt
post Apr 30 2009, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2009, 07:06 PM) *
Take another look at that. You can choose to use fewer hit that you roll when casting a spell. Always have been able to, from what I can tell. Prior to the optional rule, there wasn't much of a reason to do it though.

Incidentally, that's what caused the big stink about overcasting.

-paws

PS I too am glad that the rule was made optional.
Okay, I had looked for that line but not found it. Found it now, so the 'oops I rolled too well' thing is invalid, but I think weak opponents amongst strong may still mean higher drain or mages giving spell defense to weak opponents so they can afford to go all-out on the toughies.
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Larme
post May 1 2009, 03:01 AM
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QUOTE (Lilt @ Apr 30 2009, 02:59 PM) *
Okay, I've been away for a while, but I just thought I'd chuck my .02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in to the discussion on direct combat spell drain.

...



You're the kind of person who sees a hornet's nest, and thinks it would be a grand old time to just give it a nice whack with a stick, aren't you? Sorry if you were late to the party, but this is the deadest dead horse ever. It stinks, and bringing it back to unlife can only accomplish two things: spreading more stink around, or nothing. So for all our sakes, I'd like to request that this topic be buried back in its grave. Everything that can be said about it has been. Do a search.
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Cain
post May 1 2009, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2009, 12:06 PM) *
Incidentally, that's what caused the big stink about overcasting.

That wasn't exactly what caused the big stink about overcasting. The stink came from the fact that you'd face less Drain by overcasting. For example, if you threw a Force 5 Manabolt, and scored 5 successes, you'd knock out your enemy at a cost of 7S Drain. Or, you could overcast a Force 10 Manabolt, and face a more reasonable 5P drain.

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Larme
post May 1 2009, 02:13 PM
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Yes, we know that people hate the idea of overcasting being safer than regular casting. We know because of how many times it has been repeated. Repeating it more times really is a useless gesture at this point, don't you think? For the sake of not stirring up a hornet's nest, not being off-topic, and not stirring up more potential flame wars, just leave it alone, ok?
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cryptoknight
post May 1 2009, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 26 2009, 04:54 PM) *
Here's my beef. SR4A says you can't get more bonus dice to social skills than your attribute + skill. Now, I could create a character with charisma 6 and skill 6. Add in a specialization, Glamour, and rating 6 empathy software, and I'm looking at 11 bonus dice. That's just one less than the cap, and I didn't have to spend a single point on the Adept quality or buying Magic. There's no need for me to buy Kinesics, Cool Resolve, Iron Will, none of that crap. It's all superfluous because I can get a huge, unprecedented +6 to every social test by using empathy software. I'm not saying that there's no reason to be an Adpet at all, there are still a lot of useful social powers that aren't replaced by Empathy software. But Empathy software is just too easy to get, too cheap, and too powerful compared to Adept powers that cost tons of karma or BP to get. Because of the dice pool cap, a person with Empathy software can actually be quite comparable to a social adept, only without having to spend even a significant fraction of their resources. Empathy software replaces the face even more than an Agent replaces the hacker. Agents, at least, are much weaker than a tricked out hacker. But empathy software is like a face in your pocket, it lets you do everything a face would do, as long as you have a decent level of social skill, which many non-faces have points to get.



Well I went back and re-read Sr4A again. Improved ability (social skill) is actually a skill increase and not a dice pool mod. So 10 + say 8 charisma makes the social dice pool cap 36. Which is better... but still kinda sucks since there isn't an adept power to boost or increase the mental skills (cha, will, int, log) that I recall.
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pbangarth
post May 1 2009, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ May 1 2009, 09:27 AM) *
Well I went back and re-read Sr4A again. Improved ability (social skill) is actually a skill increase and not a dice pool mod. So 10 + say 8 charisma makes the social dice pool cap 36. Which is better... but still kinda sucks since there isn't an adept power to boost or increase the mental skills (cha, will, int, log) that I recall.


There is a Metamagic Technique, Cognition (SM p. 55), which is available to adepts only and allows them to shift Mental Attribute points temporarily. So, if the adept had extra modifiers she couldn't use, she could activate some of them by boosting the appropriate Mental Attribute.
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hobgoblin
post May 1 2009, 05:07 PM
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as its a threshold 2 test, would that not need 3 successes before it can move a single point?
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pbangarth
post May 1 2009, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 1 2009, 11:07 AM) *
as its a threshold 2 test, would that not need 3 successes before it can move a single point?


Yes, it would, on a Magic + Logic (2) Test. I'm simply pointing out that a method exists to aid those who have more bonus dice than the 2X limit allows. It may or may not be feasible for a particular character.

Every net success would allow 2 more bonus dice to be added to the pool in question, along with the boost itself in the appropriate Attribute, for a potential increase of 3 dice to the pool for every net success.
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Nikoli
post May 27 2009, 10:51 PM
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What if your email address has changed since you first ordered the PDF?
If possible, please contact me through this site.
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Adam
post May 28 2009, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE (Nikoli @ May 27 2009, 06:51 PM) *
What if your email address has changed since you first ordered the PDF?
If possible, please contact me through this site.

Contact quartermaster@battlecorps.com with issues that relate to your account on our online store. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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emperor799
post Jul 2 2009, 08:10 PM
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Hi, I just want to make sure I understand correctly:

1. If I buy SR4 Anniversary Edition, I won't need the SR4A changes doc or any base SR4 errata because that's all compiled into the book.

2. I will still need errata docs for any supplemental books I'm using.

3. IF any errata happens to SR4A it will show up in future versions of the SR4A Changes document, so I should check for those.

Please note any #s that are wrong and correct me as needed.



Thanks,

emp
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Adam
post Jul 2 2009, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (emperor799 @ Jul 2 2009, 04:10 PM) *
Hi, I just want to make sure I understand correctly:

1. If I buy SR4 Anniversary Edition, I won't need the SR4A changes doc or any base SR4 errata because that's all compiled into the book.

2. I will still need errata docs for any supplemental books I'm using.


Correct.

QUOTE
3. IF any errata happens to SR4A it will show up in future versions of the SR4A Changes document, so I should check for those.


No, there will be a distinct errata document. The Changes document is SR4 -> SR4A, nothing else.
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emperor799
post Jul 3 2009, 03:33 PM
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Thanks for the quick response, looking forward to SR4A!
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