Posting for Randall who doesn't have a DS account set up yet (slacker!)

http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2009/0...anges-document/

As we publish the Shadowrun Changes PDF that lists the major changes from SR4 to our Anniversary Edition (this PDF will function as the official errata from this point foward; SR4A incorporates all previous errata), we’d like to take time to thank our proofreaders and especially the community for taking the time to read through and highlight a few grammatical, layout, and rules issues that were accidentally overlooked in the SR4A PDF.

In our final print proofs, we found these (and a few other) items and we’re able to correct them prior to printing. Those of you who have purchased the PDF of SR4A will recieve an updated copy with the corrections applied free of cost (as per our standard procedure, you’ll should be receiving an email notification shortly). While the majority of these corrections are grammatical or layout based, they do include updates to karma awards, the optional rule of increasing the drain for Direct Combat Spells, and the hardware upgrades to devices (all of which were items that somehow slipped past us in proofing… unfortunately our staff AIs were all too busy plotting to conquer the world to work on proofing, and us mortal humans sometimes make mistakes). Sometimes when we’ve all stared at 350+ pages for too long (especially as this is the 5th 350+ page rulebook I’ve stared at in 3 years), we don’t see the little errors… luckily, we caught these (thanks to both our diligent proofers and community feedback) during our final print proofing stage.

A few of the changes to SR4A sparked a LOT of community discussion. The two largest were the increased Drain rules for Direct Combat spells and the increased thresholds/object resistance thresholds. Because our core books – including Street Magic, Unwired, Arsenal, Augmentation, and Runners Companion – present additional rules, gear, toys, and qualities that improve runners (mechanically speaking, increased dice pools), we felt it was time for Shadowrun to address the increased challenges. Our intent was two fold. First, to increase the challenge of tasks at the higher end: tasks labeled “extreme� should not be easily accomplished by the average professional, but should be challenging even for masters in their fields. Our other intent is to emphasise that Magic, while powerful, is not completely effective against Technology. Magic is a natural force in the Sixth World. Technology is its fundamental opposite. Hence, Magic – be it spells or spirits – has an increasingly difficult time affecting technological devices. The highly technical items, like Drones, are immune to all but the most powerful magical effects. Trees and rocks, being of the natural world, are inherently easier to affect with mana.

However, that being said, we do listen to our communities. After such feedback we’ve taken another very hard look at some of the changes made. For example we have decided to reduce the thresholds from 1,2,4,6+ to 1,2,3,5+. Extreme tasks- the most difficult and challenging of tasks, achievable only by those who are masters in their fields – are set at 5+ (gamemasters always have the option of setting thresholds beyond 5 to account for even more difficult, or nigh-impossible, tasks).

Overall, feedback for our Twentieth Anniversary Edition has been overwhelmingly positive. We’re glad so many of you are enjoying it! Shadowrun wouldn’t exist without our amazing community (hey, we’re fans too!) and we’re looking forward to another 20 years together.

Randall N. Bills
Managing Developer
Catalyst Game Labs

*CHEER*

[Edit:] Wow, that's the first time I've EVER gotten first post on a major announcement. Yay me!

You guys are saints. If my own work, into which I poured my blood, sweat, and tears, had been subject to the same kind of smear campaign that was waged against SR4A, I wouldn't be in a very conciliatory mood. It's a sign of a good crew when you can admit mistakes and fix them in a timely manner, even when the community is trying its best to make you not want to.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to your fans and reply in a tasteful way to criticism. Oh and stating your design goals so we can see them goes along way in my book. Then at leased I can disagree with the goals rather than the results.

The BattleShop download link is no longer a link - aka I cannot even attempt to download it, similar to my 'expired' orders, except it has a full 7 downloads remaining.

Anyone else having this issue?

Same thing for me. When I go into Account History the title of the product is just text, not a link.

EDIT: I purchased the book and PDF combo, if that makes a difference.

My purchase was PDF Only.

Will these changes be added to the hard copy of the book? I assume and hope so

Same here.


Me too!

Yay for optional drain rule change!

Yay for sensors being explicitly OR 3, and drones being 5 (not 6)!

Yay for the devs!

Yes

Yes, they will be incorporated into the print version.

The links are only good for a certain amount of time, regardless of how many downloads you have left. You will receive an email letting you know when you can download the updated PDF.

The latter is not a link, when it should be. I received the email hours ago, and the download count was reset. Further, I am obviously not the only one with this issue - it is a problem on their end, not mine, and it is a problem.

Edit: I should also mention that prior to this update, I did have an active link with multiple downloads remaining.

I'm having the same issue, not being able to download the book. I shot them an email, hopefully I'll be able to get it in the morning.

Whoah. Another reminder of why SR developers really are the best.

Great stuff... I mean staff.

Hey folks, it looks like there was a database updating error. From when I fixed the spelling of the original file. I'm replacing both files so that hopefully we'll have a temporary fix. If it doesn't work, I've got my weekly SR game with our lead programmer tomorrow morning, and I'll make sure he can't play his Technomancer until he fixes my server. (I'd hold my predator to his head, but he hacked it)

I'd also like to remind people that we are a very small group of people, and if there is ever a problem with an upload, a polite notice on both the boards, as well as an email to fixer@battlecorps.com or quartermaster@battlecorps.com will result in people working on the problem as soon as they can, but in some cases, that can take up to 24-48 hours. We ask for your patience as we do not have 24/7 coverage of the boards and email yet. Operators are sadly not always standing by, but when a problem is seen, someone is usually on the phone to me to get it fixed!

Now its working for me. Thanks!

Thank you. I have the updated PDF (from DriveThruRpg.com) and I even liked the double-spread cover it opens with now.

The Anniversary Edition is beautiful and I look forward to getting hold of the print version. And you have my respect for listening to all the debates here on DS and changing things around slightly in response. It's also very good to have the design goals explicitly stated as it helps people compare your aims with the implementation, rather than their own aims with the implementation.

I've said it before but great work! Thanks!

Khadim.

Sweet! Thank you very much, it will be used starting today!

Awesome. Especially the full cover of the new PDF release.

Sleep Deprivation as a Toxin - even more awesome.
Now Characters with Sleep Regulator, Trauma Damper and Anti-Toxin implants can stay up and running for weeks (well, they can try - and even if they fail, Nephritic Screens will make sure they don't sleep for long)... sleep is overrated, anyway.

Having Dart weapons back is great, too - though the rules may need a little tweaking to account for hits and armor in a clarified manner (Where does the AP factor in, does half impact Armor help resist, is the damage increased by hits and if so - before or after the two net hits necessary, etc.), as will the implanted Dart gun from Augmentation or the Blowgun from Arsenal.

The only sad thing is that Gel Ammunition has gotten less powerfull while Stick-n-Shock stayed the same - keeping it the no-brainer choice. Especially since by RAW, only DV gets replace, so the AP -half is added as Modifier on top of the weapons AP.

Glad to hear that they made the Direct combat spell drain increases an optional rule. I usually don't have a problem with rules changes, but that one puzzled me and apparently many others.

In the rulebook do the devs say why they felt it might be a good idea?

Also, when are the hardcopies being shipped to my FLGS (or to be less exact the realease date)?
I want to do preorder with them. And finally do you have the product code for it?

Well done, Catalyst. Very well done indeed. These changes are great.

And by the way, since 1989, I've been waiting for Sleep Deprivation rules. That is the king.

hmm, sleep dep, cram and hacker doing all night programming binges...

hmm, those interval changes in the matrix section makes VR hotsim with booster damn tempting!
5 tests in 3 seconds, if the other side is not waiting in VR the hacker may be in before they notice anything.

Very nice and much appreciated! I love the new layout of the PDF, showing off the full-page spreads. Really gives the impact better.

Would it be okay to make a request, though? In the original 4th edition BBB, there were a few charts in the back that we were given permission to photocopy. Those aren't present in the 20th anniversary edition -- I mean, they are in there, but they aren't organized in the same way, nor is permission given to photocopy. Would it be at all possible to get the updated versions of those charts released as a download? Or are those going to be things that fall into the Runner's toolkit? Because I'd be fully okay with that as well, assuming I can get them to all 6 of my players!

Esp. since people are going to photocopy them anyway and claim fair use

Any ideas as to when the emails will be going out for the updated version (I purchased from BC)?

Thanks in advance,

AJC

Already got the email notification hours ago.

Yesterday.

So if we purchased the SR4A PDF from BattleCorp we were suppose to receive an email so we can download the new pdf? If so, I didn't get an email (and neither did my spam filter). I tried signing into BattleCorp to redownload but I cannot (my BattleCorp account says: Ltd Ed. 20th Anniv. Shadowrun, 4th Ed. - Combo (LE & PDF) Link expired on: Monday 16 March, 2009 ).

Yeah, I didn't get the e-mail but I checked my account anyways. It was at the bottom, said I had until April 17th to do my 7 downloads.

Just checked my account again, and no such luck. Have sent an email off - hopefully will hear back early next week.

AJC

I'm on a mini-vacation right now so I don't have instant access to what's in the toolkit and what's not, but there are a bunch of things on my "support downloads" TODO list, and that's one of them.

Awesome. Thanks, Adam, good to know some things never change. You still rock.

This is the second time that major adjustments have been made by player feedback to Catalyst(that I know of). The first was the compromise inclusion of the Unseen in TRO:3039 for Battletech. This is the second. Both times, the adjustments made the product better. Kudos to CGL!

OK...I look at the updated PDF, and I see they still have Holostreets listed in it.
Can we be taking this as a promise that Holostreets will be up when the book comes out?
Or is this just that they forgot to remove holostreets from the listing of the "Find us online" stuff?

First rule of Holostreets is... you don't talk about Holostreets.

Thank you for listening to us.

I'm extremely disappointed to see that Catalyst bowed to pressure from what was essentially a bunch of whining about a mage's inability to easily turn a drone into goo. Object resistance is SUPPOSED to be hard, not some walk in the park. The biggest mistake of 4th edition was making magic too easy, and the minute that someone finally tried to fix that, they lost their balls and caved into the "magic is supposed to be UBER!" crowd. I'd suggest a counter-protest against this kind of idiocy, but it would be pointless since the whiners outnumbered the reasonable people from the start.

So you're against Catalyst responding to the wishes of the fans?

The OR table has still gone up, though. You need an extra three dice in your pool to achieve the same average results as pre-Errata.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningTheAsylum

And the only reason you support this is your mistaken belief that magic is to powerful in Shadowrun, one that very few people hold. Your entire basis for this is that magic can do everything mundane methods can, but better - you entirely ignore the cost associated with that.

For nearly everything magic can do, there is a mundane method of comparable or superior effectiveness, with equal or less cost. With the sole exception of spirits (& lesser extent, Direct Combat spells), SR4 magic is not overpowered, & even spirits can be argued convincingly for being balanced (& mundanes, again, have a comparable method in drones; less utility, vastly greater numbers).



Changing the Object Resistance table the way they initially did was very much a mistake - it made entire archetypes unplayable unless min/maxed to the point of absurdity.

Magic was rather ineffective against drones in 3rd edition, and mages did just fine. This is whining from a bunch of powergamers who are sad that their toy almost got taken away. Please stop repeating the same ridiculous arguments that you overheard someone smarter than you trying to pass off as the truth.

Mundanes can do everything that a magician can? Huh. Tell me, how do mundanes:

- Walk through walls?
- Enter astral space?
- Summon a giant creature out of thin air to attack their enemies?
- Provide concealment for an entire group of people?
- Increase the movement speed of everyone in the party by an exponential amount?
- Easily murder a giant Troll who skimped on his Willpower stat?
- Turn someone into goo and steal their cyberware?
- Create force fields?
- Become invisible?
- Completely supress all sound in an area?
- Increase their skill die pools far beyond what one can get via cyber/bioware?
- Create bulletproof armor out of thin air, allowing one to bypass security scanners while still being armed and armored?
- Murder someone from two blocks away with a mere thought, with a weapon that is completely invisible to the naked eye?

I could go on, but I'd rather not waste any more time answering such an idiotic, poorly thought out argument. And before some idiot tries to retort with "well how does a mage or adept hack a node?", the answer is "with trodes". And with the Improved Skill power, the Adept will be superior to any mundane at doing so. It's mostly programs doing the work anyway, so anybody with nuyen can hack.

And even if we leave game balance out of the picture (and really, why should we? If game balance doesn't matter, then we should all be playing Rifts), there's the matter of SETTING. Magic isn't SUPPOSED to easily affect complex technology, and these reduced OR tables are a joke. Cook the numbers all you want, but on the table, facts are facts. GMs shouldn't have to reject perfectly legal character sheets because the game designers are too lazy or too cowardly to write balanced rules and stats.

Only at the highest level of difficulty, and three dice isn't alway enough, or sometimes it's a way bigger chance:

At very low dice polls, you will only need an increas of 2 dice in order to have the same chance of success.

For example with 5 dice you have 4.53% chance of rolling 4 or more hits. You only need 7 dice to have the same chance of rolling 5 or more hits.

At very high dice pools, you will an increase of more than 3 dice to have the same chance of success.

For example with 16 dice you have 83.41% chance of rolling 4 or more hits. You will need 20 dice to get past the same chance (84.85%) of rolling 5 or more hits.

With even higher dice pools you will need even more dice to have the same chance of success.

I just wonden why nobody have complained that their gun-bunny has been nerfed aswell. After all the modifier at extreme range has gone from -3 (= -1 hit) to -6 (= -2 hits). That means that you will not be able to kill certain creatures with one shot just like you did before.

Lars

If you're shooting from extreme range, you almost certainly have some form of vision mag (equipment, magic, scope).

I don't buy your argument, as it can just as easely be used on the magic/OR debate:

"If you are trying to affect drones or vehicles with magic, you almost certainly have some form of magic booster (power focus, spellcasting focus, specialization, mentor bonus)."

I'm not opposing the OR table being reduced to 1-2-3-5, but I just couldn't see the big problems with 1-2-4-6, and for the record I usually play the mage.

I don't play SR to beat the game or the GM, I play SR to have fun and be challenged, and when the odds are to low it's not fun and challenging.

Lars

Vision magnification is considerably cheaper and more common than a high-power focus.

You mis-read/present my statements, & entirely ignore my argument and the limiting factors of magic in an attempt to push your views. I will not argue with you over this.

I would, however, just like to say that I am damn good at balancing game mechanics. I do not always get it right the first time, but that is why I test & adjust as needed. I have years of personal experience. I have professional schooling. And it is my career choice.

Yes, there are some aspects of magic in SR4 that are overpowered. There are an equal, possibly greater, amount of mundane area's that are just as unbalanced. Some aspects of magic, particularly Adepts, are severely underpowered.

Vision Magnification is available at your local general store for 50:nuyen:, & does not require a ritual & Karma to use.

Even high-level corporate mages are highly unlikely to have a Focus providing a comparable benefit to their spellcasting.

Do you play SR to cast Turn to Goo on drones? The average magician in the average game isn't going to encounter the highest levels of OR. If they need to get past electronics, they should have teammates for that.