Unbalanced areas for mundanes? NAME THEM. I want to hear about these incredible, unbalanced things that only mundanes can do. Also, I'd love to hear about where magic is underpowered.

With statements like this, I find it laughable that you claim to have anything resembling competence, let alone skill, with developing game mechanics.

While it's theoretically possible for a 400BP mage to get an Edge of 8, the resulting characters aren't viable. So, Edge 8 is pretty much a mundane plaything, and it breaks a game all by itself.

You can create a troll tank with cyberware that can laugh off gauss cannon rounds. You can't do this with magic, because that much cyber would destroy their Essence.

Both of these points are irrelevant, since a mage could compensate for the magic loss easily by initiating and increasing their magic (which they can do infinitely; a cyber or bioware character is limited by essence), and could simply buy their edge that high with karma and easily pull off crap even more ridiculous than what a mundane can do with Edge 8.

Try again.

And it is possible for a mundane to purchase the Magician Quality in game via karma, but neither that unlikely occurrence nor your unlikely occurrence are relevant to the question. I don't mind the argument in concept, but seriously? You're digging your hole deep enough with reasonable arguments. Don't TRY to be stupid and think it's going to impress anyone.

[img]http://mndigest.shadowdragon.net/postit/smarter.gif[/img]

Posting here just to cover my bases. I sent this email to the quartermaster email this morning:

"Having not received an email notification that I was eligible to download the updated SR4 Anniversary edition of the .pdf file, I checked my order (Order #41991), to determine if I could download from there, but I cannot. Would it be possible to enable my link so that I can download the updated .pdf file? Thank you."

If someone on the boards handles this, thanks!

I'd be curious to hear from Catalyst about how you guys thought this sort of "open proofreading prior to printing" process worked. Would you do it again?

"Easily"? Assuming you mean "By spending ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of karma" then sure.

Let's say we have a mage with an Edge of 7, ready to raise it to an Edge of 8. It'll cost him 80 karma: 40 for the Lucky Edge, and 40 to raise the stat itself. Meanwhile, a mundane could raise a whole ton of skills for that same amount.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Just because you have trouble with mages doesn't mean they're broken. Try again.

No it isn't that quality is a character build only quality.

To the designers,

SR4A was a needed adjustment and very sharp looking to boot.

I agree with almost all your reasons for making the changes if not the exact mechanics.

But thanks for listening to your fans on this.

I also want to say I really like seeing the return of shadow talk/fluff that the later 3rd Editions source books dropped.

Please keep up the good work.

BTW, I do think that the active skill soft cost of 10K per level is too high. Skill wires are never going to be as good as someone with the real skills and they are one of the few things to help balance out the Magically Active/Mundane power level.

Of course this thread had to turn into a big argument right away

Regardless, while I don't think the changes were needed, I don't think Catalyst should be trashed for bowing to pressure, either. The fact is, how powerful a mage is or isn't is 100% absolutely arbitrary. There is no "right" balance for mages, there's just the balance that people prefer or don't. I have mixed feelings about the current balance. Mages are pretty uber, but they are also glass hammers, moreso than any other character build. And it's not like they don't pay most of their points just to be a passable mage. Were the SR4A nerfs a good thing? I think they might have been. I for one would still play a mage post-nerf, because they didn't change the best things about being a mage. I think it's more fun to have limits, because it increases the tactical game you have to play in deciding how to avoid being cornered by stuff that you're weak against. But the system is fine without those nerfs. I simply wish people could relax and take things into stride. We need to realize that the game as a whole is an arbitrary system. If we simply relax and play it without adhering to the stubborn idea that we know the One True Way to play Shadowrun, we'll all have a lot more fun.

It was moronic for them to change it based on the petulant whining of a bunch of idiotic fanboys who have nothing in mind but their own precious "character builds". If people wanted to play with ridiculous rules, they can houserule it; the game itself should be focused solely on what is fun and what is balanced. Mages who can do everything themselves and have no need of team members because the game designers are too ball-less to stand up to the fanboys are neither fun nor balanced.

Ignoring, of course, the fact that it can be mathematically demonstrated that some of the changes are unbalanced, and therefore, unfun. Like the fact that if you use the optional rule, you take less drain overcasting direct combat spells than casting them normally.

I still cannot download the latest version of the SR4A PDF from Battlecorps. Can anyone else that previously purchased the pdf download the updated file?

Oh, and you guys are taking this way too seriously. Besides, hasn't the "Direct Combat spell get extra drain rule" been moved to "optional"? If you like the rule, use it, otherwise don't. Now if you have to complain about something check the ramming rules....

JonathanC was complaining about the fact that it's been moved to "Optional", ignoring the fact that it encouraged overcasting.

I had no problems downloading it, but my lap-top monitor is too small...I cannot have both pages up and readable at the same time So, I cannot really peruse it at work easily...

My home computer with its brand new monitor, though..it looks really good on(and the two pages are bout the size of the print book, so...are easily readable!)

Do you ever stop spewing utter nonsense? For one thing, Turn to Goo doesn't work on drones. have you ever even played a mage?



Take 400 BP, build the super mage that can do everything mundanes can do - or for a moment (if you're capable) consider the costs of all these things you propose mages are can do.

Hermit was offered the challenge and pretty much disappeared from the boards, you're in the same league of drivel spew - why you don't you put up or shut up?

Build the mage and impress us all, or STFU.

I don't agree or disagree particularly with either of you, and I'm no mod, but IMO that was out of line.

Well, he did call quite a few people "a bunch of idiotic fanboys". May have made some enemies there. I don't care either way, I just want my pdf!!!

No, I was complaining about the ridiculous revision of the OR table due to the whining of people like Cain.

Wouldn't that be balanced by the fact that the penalties for failing the drain test are much more severe for overcasting? You can get stun back easily. Physical damage is a pain in the ass, especially for mages, who typically aren't that big on Body.

I'll build the super-Mage when one of you whiners can show me the mundane who is supposed to be as unbalanced, versatile, and overall POWERFUL as a mage. And no, showing me a one-trick glass canon gunbunny doesn't fit the bill, neither does a super-troll who rides the short bus and can't remember his own name.

Do you know what they call people who throw out challenges like that when they haven't provided any evidence of their own? Hypocrites. Me, I just call them whiny mage fanboys. Go play a White Wolf game and leave Cyberpunk to people who actually want to play Cyberpunk.

Being a toxic poster and ranting in every single thread that touches on the subject of magic with an opinion that is clearly not the norm is also uncalled for.




Evidence for what? I've made no claims of anykind. There I have nothing to prove.

You, on the other hand, have made constant claims of how ridiculously overpowered you think magic is.

And when people disagree with you, you just continue to rant without proving it.





This isn't cyberpunk.

This is Shadowrun.


You do realize that Shadowrun's history is rooted in magic right?

If you seriously can't stand magic that much, and hate it so thoroughly that you feel a need to derail and poison every thread that brings up magic, then maybe you're the one playing the wrong game as magic isn't going anywhere.

[Edit:] This was me complaining about something because I'd misread what was meant. This is me fixing my mistake.

Ok, PM sent. I could put the quotes here, but that would continue the derailing of the thread.

If you've been paying attention and reading posts, you would have noticed that I haven't made any comments on the OR, one way or the other. So, how about you get off the persecution complex, and try a logical debate instead o f an ad hominem?


Physical Drain can be healed in minutes with first aid. Stun damage takes an hour or more to heal naturally. So, no, it doesn't balance out.

From what I've read on the boards, many GM's don't allow first aid to work on drain-induced damage.

Except for one simple fact. If more than 2 or 3 people agree with Cain, he is probably right - it happens very rarely, but it has happened.

Knock it off. All of you. This pointless bickering and arguing and accusations and whining and persecution complex bullshit ends here.

I'm on vacation, hanging out with Caine Hazen, and I believe a couple other mods are semi-AFK cause of Real Life and stuff too, else this would have been stomped on earlier. My apologies to anyone not involved that's had to suffer through. There's been a lot of shit stirred up ever since SR4A came out, but none of us have had the time todeal with it.

So for the moment, all I'll say is, KNOCK THIS SHIT OFF. When we get the chance, we'll be reviewing the threads, and I guarantee a few arnings will be going out. For now, jesus, grow up and play nice.

Bull

I wouldn't be able to say how many without starting a poll. However, by RAW, you can first aid physical Drain. I believe this goes for 4.5 as well as 4.0.

By RAW, SR4A, page 252: First Aid may be used on both physical and stun damage, only once per set of injuries, base Logic+First Aid(2) test, each net hit over the threshold reduces one box of damage. One complex action level test, no extended action, takes number of turns equal to the damage you are attempting to heal..

Could you give a page reference for where it says you can only use first aid on Physical Drain, not stun drain?

Can we get a show of hands from those who still can't download the updated .pdf file? I mean, it's been four days now. I would hope that somebody is in the Battlecorps office minding the store (so to speak).

<raises hand>

Robert (aka Spanner)

Yeah, I still can't download the updated SR4A PDF. Have sent a couple of emails to Battlecorps with no reply.

I'm looking into it. I'm under the impression that we're having some email issues due to moving a bunch of stuff out of David's place and into the new office/shipping location [woohoo!], but the timing is obviously awkward [I just got back from a short vacation, too.]

I don't know what PDF reader you're using, but all of them should be able to view the document in Single page mode as opposed to the default Facing page mode.

I am using Adobe's PDF reader...

Really? It has options to do that? I thought it was only able to open and read stuff...did not know we had any choices beyond its default..learn something new every day.

Now, if we can just get the spiffier, and better, SR4A character sheets up on the website...

NOTE: Yes, the SR4A sheets are actually great..I love their organization..especially the "Most common weapon, most common armour" on the front page

Would be greatly appreciated as I'm in the same boat - no update email and no response from Battlecorp.

Regards,

AJC

Select View > Page Display > Single Page.

Incidentally, Adam, is there a way to make this the default view whenever I open the PDF?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. In preferences there's a "remember last view settings" check-box.

Glad that you mentioned this Adam. I was thinking that I may have to plot my own RL Shadowrun to get my pdf. Being a tech nerd I can respect system issues. I'll wait.

There are so many versions of Adobe Reader that I don't know if this will be 100% right, but View -> Page Display is the first place I'd look. You want the Single Page option.

What are the chances of getting an updated/larger GM screen created as well? I have the current one but it doesn't have all the tables on it (some are left on the booklet that came with it) let alone ones that reflect the current updates that are being put into it.

Also could I possibly convince you to take a page from the new Star Wars Saga screen, their four panel hard cover stock screen is great. The extra room allows them to add more tables and provides greater stability and room for GM notes, books, character sheets, and initiative.

i think one is planned as part of the runners kit, or whatever the name was...

The Runner's Toollkit will include a revised GM Screen.

Since I was one of the people who complained about the earlier situation, I want to add a "Thank you."
The current set of changes or more internally consistent and workable.
Thank you,
Joel Halpern

This is something I wanted for the entirety of 3rd edition's run. I'm so glad it's happening this time.

I mean.. I know that GM screens are usually item #2 on an edition's checklist, but to have one reflect the other core books that have come out is really desirable.

Any chance of a vote/poll to see what charts people most want on the screen? I know I'd vote for a list of chase combat maneuvers and initiatives and modifiers and all that, but I've always been a little strange in my desire to pit aircraft carrier versus T-bird.

Adding my voice as a SR4A buyer who was able to download both the original SR4A, and the newest errata PDF, but has yet to receive a link for downloading the corrected version of SR4A.

Just sent an e-mail to contact@battlecorps.com also, is that the best address?

It took a couple of days, but Troy followed up and reset everything for me. The email I used was quartermaster@battlecorps.com.

Regards,

AJC

Um..if you got it through BattleShop, then you do not get a link...you just go to your order that you got it with, and download from there..

I received an e-mail with a link in it to the updated PDF. Lots of instructions including sending an e-mail if I was having any problems.

Carl

Bought SR4A from the BattleShop on 13 March. Download link expired on 18 March.

There is no link for downloading the updated version.

There is a checkmark on Battlecorps in your Account that says something like "Inform me about updates to this product." Perhaps some of you did not get an email because that is unchecked?