If the Sensei quality simply gets you a contact who can instruct you in a group of skills, why not just get a contact... why waste the quality on it? Is Sensei not a worthless quality?

Questions of point costs aside, off the top of my head I can give a good situation where this is useful. Your character might know of a guy who knows some skill, a martial art for instance, that he wants to learn. A contact represents a relationship, a back and forth, and it needs to be maintained. The quality might be something as simple as finding a slip of paper in your father's old belongings and starting play with the (purchased with points) understanding that this will lead your character to someone that can teach him something he wants to know. Basically a latent contact, or maybe just a one shot option for the character to meet with someone to learn. There are all kinds of uses for it really, just one more way to handle a specific situation in game.

IMO it's a total wast of good BP
it would make more sense to build a new achetype contact than using the avantage and (at game master discretion paying 0-1-2-3 BP more) and that would NOT count toward the 35pts caps advantages.

In my opinion a countact level implie a certain level of professionnalism and when you are good at something... you may teach it (yes there is more proficients teacher than other...)

From a strictly mechanical viewpoint, Sensei is there as a time saver. While you can pick your contacts, you can't pick what skills they have. You could, for example, choose a Marine Drill Sergeant as a contact, but even if you can specify how loyal they are to you, you can't tell if they're a very good instructor or if they have the skills you want to learn.

The quality does not give you a new contact. It says one of your existing contacts has the Instruction skill.

The quality is a piece of shit, & should not even be a quality, as it does not match the definition of a quality - a large number of 'qualities' in Runners Companion fall into this category (it is not just the 'balance' that causes me to doubt the developers ability to continue publishing a good game).


Ancient, there is nothing preventing you from taking a teacher, or martial arts instructor, or any other such character as a contact without this quality. The quality is at best redundant, & thus a waste of points.

I'll agree with you there.


I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world, what I'm saying is a guarantee. You, the player, have no control over your contact's stats. Yes, your contact could be a teacher or a martial arts instructor - but that doesn't mean they're /good/ at it, or that they have the skills you want. I wouldn't advocate taking it, but I can see how some people who are farsighted or have the right character background might choose to take it.

I don´t think so. All of your contacts have a professionality-rating which shows the "power and influence" they have on their particular job. So i think if you choose a "martial arts instructor" as a contact and give him a high professionaliy rating, you can assume that he is capable of what he is offering. So i also don´t see what use this quality could have. Of course, if you just choose a "martial arts master" you don´t have a guarantee that he is teaching the exact skill you need, e.g. if you want to learn karate and he is a master of krav-maga. So this is something you could influence with this quality. But i think its a little bit expensive just for this small advantage.

Sensei is not a quality, along with approximately a full third of those printed in Runners Companion, as well as (I think) about half those in Augmentation, excluding the mental disorders at the end.

All things considered my take on the Sensei quality is along the lines of what I think Ancient History said, you are buying the relationship, even ( Loyalty 6 ) Contacts are just that, Conctacts, while a Sensei is supposed to be more.

Exactly, Ravor. Think of it as mentor spirit/paragon for mundanes.

Actually, that's a terrible comparison; mentor spirits give you the whole "NPC guidance" thing AND a dice pool bonus. Maybe the Sensei should knock 1 karma off the cost of improving any skill in the skill group he teaches, or 3-4 off the cost of improving a skill group.

Not a bad idea at all, although I think I'd limit it to a 1-2 Karma discount on skillgroups only.

When I first saw this quality, I thought that what it would do was to make you the sensei, as in giving you a dojo (martial arts) or a school of some sort and students to fill it. Thus giving you a somewhat steady source of income and a group of mostly loyal contacts (the students) for a relatively low cost. When I actually read the description however, I was sorely disappointed.

A full third? Really? Even assuming you meant non-metagenic, non-racial qualities, that's still ~25 "non-qualities" (it's ~55 if you indeed meant all the qualities in the book). I only see a few that do not fit the qualifications of:

1) A quality possessed by the character (not a character's contact, etc)
2) Either an innate or an intangible characteristic. I'm defining "intangible" as "unable to be interacted with" because "not definite", the other potential definition, isn't applicable since all qualities have definite benefits and drawbacks.

Those few I see are, in alphabetical order by Positive then Negative:

Black Market Pipeline (this isn't a characteristic of the character, but rather one of his contacts)
Restricted Gear (not a characteristic at all, let alone one of the character)
Sensei (same as Black Market Pipeline)

Cranial Bomb (neither innate nor intangible)
Dependent (neither innate nor intangible)
Enemy (not a characteristic of the character)
Hung Out To Dry (not a characteristic of the character)
In Debt (neither innate nor intangible)
Mysterious Implant (neither innate nor intangible)
Records on File (neither innate nor intangible)
Spammed (not technically a characteristic of the character, but rather one of his SINs/comms)

That's 11 "qualities". There are some others that are borderline, but certainly not that many again. 11's bad, for sure, but not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, considering there are 167 qualities in the book by my count. That's less than 10% actual "non-qualities". I suspect I'd find a similarly hyperbolic result if I looked at Augmentation.

I cannot believe people are arguing qualities aren't qualities because of a simple sentence describing what qualities usually are. This boggles the mind. Sure, Sensei isn't the best quality ever. But it IS a quality. Why? It's in the qualities section of the book.

If it isn't a stat, isn't a skill, and should cost or give build points as chargen, it's a quality. It's very simple. You don't need to be bound by a descriptor. It makes me want to swear and tear my hair out that anyone would even consider such a narrow reading as evidence that something should be thrown out.

Born Rich
College Education
Fame
Made Man
Privileged Family Name
School of Hard Knocks
Technical School Education
Trust Fund

Bad Rep
Lost Loved One
Vendetta
Wanted


Yes, many of them are border-line, but easily close enough to fall into the non-quality section; I forgot to mention, but I was not including any racial templates (infected, drake, etc.) or SURGE (can be considered a template).


As for Augmentation:
Wild Card Nano Prototype
Buggy ’Ware
High-Maintenance Implant
Mystery Mod Noise

4/15 - not quite what I had estimated, but still a third.

Please cite an example of someone saying that Sensei (or any of the other qualities that don't fit the definition) should be thrown out. You may want to consider reserving tearing your hair out for something that has actually happened.

I guess what Sensi accomplishes is getting you a loyalty 2 or 3 martial arts instructor with a 4 or 5 connection for the purposes of teaching you a skill group (close combat, piloting, whatever).

So it is a quality that costs 5 from your 35 limit, and saves you a couple of karma/bp total. I see it, but I dont like it.

I like Mr. Mage's mistaken impression better. I like the idea that you have an established following of students and a simple dojo from a 5bp quality. That actually sounds useful, and is a quality more centric to the character.

Born Rich: Is a characteristic of the character (IMO), and it's at least innate if debatably intangible.
College Education/School of Hard Knocks/Technical School: Is a characteristic, isn't innate, but is intangible.
Fame: Is a characteristic, isn't (always) innate, but is intangible.
Made Man: This one I was borderline on, myself. The game mechanic effects would put it in the "non-quality" category, but the actual description of the quality marks it as a characteristic of the character (I am the made man), and it's debatably intangible.
Privileged Family Name: Is a characteristic of the character and is both innate and intangible.
Trust Fund: This was another one I was borderline on. It's debatably not a characteristic of the character and debatably not intangible. It's definitely not innate.

Bad Rep: Is a characteristic of the character, and is intangible.
Lost Loved One: Another borderline. Debatably not a characteristic of the character, but is definitely intangible.
Vendetta: Is a characteristic of the character (it governs their reaction to their enemy), and is both innate and intangible.
Wanted: The fourth borderline quality. Debatably not a characteristic of the character; is intangible, though.


I do agree with you about all four of the Augmentation qualities, though I'd point out that 4/15 is closer to 1/4 than 1/3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Born Rich is not a characteristic of the character, it is a characteristic of the family, & can be argued to not be Innate (it is the money, not the character). Same with Privileged Family Name.

Fame affects the character, but is entirely dependent on others. Same with Bad Rep.

College Education & similar are borderline; I include them more because I think they are stupid as described, than not being 'qualities' per se (change the name/description, leave the effects, & they are good).

Wanted is similar to Fame / Bad Rep in that it affects the character, but is dependent on others. Further, it requires you to possess an Enemy, which you have already agreed does not fit the definition of a quality.

Spells. Complex Forms. Nuyen. Contacts. There are plenty of categories you failed to notice.

Many of the 'qualities' I claim should not exist are because they are aspects of character background, roleplaying, or included in another category *cough*Contacts*cough* - nothing more, nothing less.

Many of the qualities I have removed from my game are included in what I, for lack of a better term, am calling Roleplaying or Background Hooks. Available to players who write out a character background, they give the player the option to include such things as Enemy, or Privilaged Family Name. Should this aspect of their background come into play (at the gamemaster's control, usually), they will receive appropriate benefits or complications, and receive a reduced or increased Karma award for the session, as appropriate (any other players affected by this are subject to a lesser Karma reduction/increase).


See my first reply. It does not give you a contact. It 'modifies' the abilities of an existing contact.

Your family is part of your characteristics, though. It's part of what defines you as a person. Thus, IMO, it is, indeed, a characteristic of the character. This is even more true with Privileged Family Name, because it's the character's name.



Being dependent on others is irrelevant. Fame is a characteristic of a character, and it's intangible. Thus, it fits the definition of a quality.



Wanted does not require a character to possess an Enemy. You must be thinking of Vendetta. That's not relevant, though; Vendetta's effects are still a characteristic of the character and intangible. As for Wanted, it's definitely the iffiest of the ones I didn't include in my initial list. I wouldn't lose any sleep over including it.

Muspellsheimr, would it make you happy if they called those kinds of things "perks" instead? Because seriously, sweating over terminology is ridiculous.

If I made a character with a background where my PC had been used as a test subject by a corporation following an arrest, had been implanted with some cutting-edge ware and they'd stop at nothing to get me back, I'd be describing a character with the positive quality of Restricted Gear and the negative qualities Wanted and Criminal Sin. They are, in fact, innate to the story and concept of the character. Getting hung up on 'innate' being tied to the (meta)physical nature of the PC's form is just pointless.

I've used it. I'd say the 5 BP is worth it considering you don't have to hire an instructor to learn cool new things. Want to learn maneuvers and Martial arts styles? 5 BP is cheaper than some of the prices you pay for repeated Martial Arts instruction...

Not to put words in Musp's mouth but his beef seems to be the same beef I had when I read RC: a lot of the qualities are things that should have been left as background stuff not as codified rules. Sensai and Family Name are 2 good examples. I was giving those out for free due to character description there was no need to spend precious BPs on it. They don't infuriate me quite as much as the Negative qualities that should be personality/background for which you GAIN BPs.

Granted you can throw out whatever you want at the table. Just seemed like such a waste of space.

Unless, you know, you role-play and your contact will do it for free or for favours. All this does is force the GM to let you do that instead of letting the two of you work together to create a fun game. You could have taken those 5 BP and plowed them into whatever contact levels you bought for your Sensei and then had Chuck Norris as your teacher.