If the Sensei quality simply gets you a contact who can instruct you in a group of skills, why not just get a contact... why waste the quality on it? Is Sensei not a worthless quality?

Questions of point costs aside, off the top of my head I can give a good situation where this is useful. Your character might know of a guy who knows some skill, a martial art for instance, that he wants to learn. A contact represents a relationship, a back and forth, and it needs to be maintained. The quality might be something as simple as finding a slip of paper in your father's old belongings and starting play with the (purchased with points) understanding that this will lead your character to someone that can teach him something he wants to know. Basically a latent contact, or maybe just a one shot option for the character to meet with someone to learn. There are all kinds of uses for it really, just one more way to handle a specific situation in game.

IMO it's a total wast of good BP
it would make more sense to build a new achetype contact than using the avantage and (at game master discretion paying 0-1-2-3 BP more) and that would NOT count toward the 35pts caps advantages.

In my opinion a countact level implie a certain level of professionnalism and when you are good at something... you may teach it (yes there is more proficients teacher than other...)

From a strictly mechanical viewpoint, Sensei is there as a time saver. While you can pick your contacts, you can't pick what skills they have. You could, for example, choose a Marine Drill Sergeant as a contact, but even if you can specify how loyal they are to you, you can't tell if they're a very good instructor or if they have the skills you want to learn.

The quality does not give you a new contact. It says one of your existing contacts has the Instruction skill.

The quality is a piece of shit, & should not even be a quality, as it does not match the definition of a quality - a large number of 'qualities' in Runners Companion fall into this category (it is not just the 'balance' that causes me to doubt the developers ability to continue publishing a good game).


Ancient, there is nothing preventing you from taking a teacher, or martial arts instructor, or any other such character as a contact without this quality. The quality is at best redundant, & thus a waste of points.

I'll agree with you there.


I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world, what I'm saying is a guarantee. You, the player, have no control over your contact's stats. Yes, your contact could be a teacher or a martial arts instructor - but that doesn't mean they're /good/ at it, or that they have the skills you want. I wouldn't advocate taking it, but I can see how some people who are farsighted or have the right character background might choose to take it.

I don´t think so. All of your contacts have a professionality-rating which shows the "power and influence" they have on their particular job. So i think if you choose a "martial arts instructor" as a contact and give him a high professionaliy rating, you can assume that he is capable of what he is offering. So i also don´t see what use this quality could have. Of course, if you just choose a "martial arts master" you don´t have a guarantee that he is teaching the exact skill you need, e.g. if you want to learn karate and he is a master of krav-maga. So this is something you could influence with this quality. But i think its a little bit expensive just for this small advantage.

Sensei is not a quality, along with approximately a full third of those printed in Runners Companion, as well as (I think) about half those in Augmentation, excluding the mental disorders at the end.

All things considered my take on the Sensei quality is along the lines of what I think Ancient History said, you are buying the relationship, even ( Loyalty 6 ) Contacts are just that, Conctacts, while a Sensei is supposed to be more.

Exactly, Ravor. Think of it as mentor spirit/paragon for mundanes.

Actually, that's a terrible comparison; mentor spirits give you the whole "NPC guidance" thing AND a dice pool bonus. Maybe the Sensei should knock 1 karma off the cost of improving any skill in the skill group he teaches, or 3-4 off the cost of improving a skill group.

Not a bad idea at all, although I think I'd limit it to a 1-2 Karma discount on skillgroups only.

When I first saw this quality, I thought that what it would do was to make you the sensei, as in giving you a dojo (martial arts) or a school of some sort and students to fill it. Thus giving you a somewhat steady source of income and a group of mostly loyal contacts (the students) for a relatively low cost. When I actually read the description however, I was sorely disappointed.

A full third? Really? Even assuming you meant non-metagenic, non-racial qualities, that's still ~25 "non-qualities" (it's ~55 if you indeed meant all the qualities in the book). I only see a few that do not fit the qualifications of:

1) A quality possessed by the character (not a character's contact, etc)
2) Either an innate or an intangible characteristic. I'm defining "intangible" as "unable to be interacted with" because "not definite", the other potential definition, isn't applicable since all qualities have definite benefits and drawbacks.

Those few I see are, in alphabetical order by Positive then Negative:

Black Market Pipeline (this isn't a characteristic of the character, but rather one of his contacts)
Restricted Gear (not a characteristic at all, let alone one of the character)
Sensei (same as Black Market Pipeline)

Cranial Bomb (neither innate nor intangible)
Dependent (neither innate nor intangible)
Enemy (not a characteristic of the character)
Hung Out To Dry (not a characteristic of the character)
In Debt (neither innate nor intangible)
Mysterious Implant (neither innate nor intangible)
Records on File (neither innate nor intangible)
Spammed (not technically a characteristic of the character, but rather one of his SINs/comms)

That's 11 "qualities". There are some others that are borderline, but certainly not that many again. 11's bad, for sure, but not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, considering there are 167 qualities in the book by my count. That's less than 10% actual "non-qualities". I suspect I'd find a similarly hyperbolic result if I looked at Augmentation.

I cannot believe people are arguing qualities aren't qualities because of a simple sentence describing what qualities usually are. This boggles the mind. Sure, Sensei isn't the best quality ever. But it IS a quality. Why? It's in the qualities section of the book.

If it isn't a stat, isn't a skill, and should cost or give build points as chargen, it's a quality. It's very simple. You don't need to be bound by a descriptor. It makes me want to swear and tear my hair out that anyone would even consider such a narrow reading as evidence that something should be thrown out.

Born Rich
College Education
Fame
Made Man
Privileged Family Name
School of Hard Knocks
Technical School Education
Trust Fund

Bad Rep
Lost Loved One
Vendetta
Wanted


Yes, many of them are border-line, but easily close enough to fall into the non-quality section; I forgot to mention, but I was not including any racial templates (infected, drake, etc.) or SURGE (can be considered a template).


As for Augmentation:
Wild Card Nano Prototype
Buggy ’Ware
High-Maintenance Implant
Mystery Mod Noise

4/15 - not quite what I had estimated, but still a third.

Please cite an example of someone saying that Sensei (or any of the other qualities that don't fit the definition) should be thrown out. You may want to consider reserving tearing your hair out for something that has actually happened.

I guess what Sensi accomplishes is getting you a loyalty 2 or 3 martial arts instructor with a 4 or 5 connection for the purposes of teaching you a skill group (close combat, piloting, whatever).

So it is a quality that costs 5 from your 35 limit, and saves you a couple of karma/bp total. I see it, but I dont like it.

I like Mr. Mage's mistaken impression better. I like the idea that you have an established following of students and a simple dojo from a 5bp quality. That actually sounds useful, and is a quality more centric to the character.

Born Rich: Is a characteristic of the character (IMO), and it's at least innate if debatably intangible.
College Education/School of Hard Knocks/Technical School: Is a characteristic, isn't innate, but is intangible.
Fame: Is a characteristic, isn't (always) innate, but is intangible.
Made Man: This one I was borderline on, myself. The game mechanic effects would put it in the "non-quality" category, but the actual description of the quality marks it as a characteristic of the character (I am the made man), and it's debatably intangible.
Privileged Family Name: Is a characteristic of the character and is both innate and intangible.
Trust Fund: This was another one I was borderline on. It's debatably not a characteristic of the character and debatably not intangible. It's definitely not innate.

Bad Rep: Is a characteristic of the character, and is intangible.
Lost Loved One: Another borderline. Debatably not a characteristic of the character, but is definitely intangible.
Vendetta: Is a characteristic of the character (it governs their reaction to their enemy), and is both innate and intangible.
Wanted: The fourth borderline quality. Debatably not a characteristic of the character; is intangible, though.


I do agree with you about all four of the Augmentation qualities, though I'd point out that 4/15 is closer to 1/4 than 1/3

Born Rich is not a characteristic of the character, it is a characteristic of the family, & can be argued to not be Innate (it is the money, not the character). Same with Privileged Family Name.

Fame affects the character, but is entirely dependent on others. Same with Bad Rep.

College Education & similar are borderline; I include them more because I think they are stupid as described, than not being 'qualities' per se (change the name/description, leave the effects, & they are good).

Wanted is similar to Fame / Bad Rep in that it affects the character, but is dependent on others. Further, it requires you to possess an Enemy, which you have already agreed does not fit the definition of a quality.

Spells. Complex Forms. Nuyen. Contacts. There are plenty of categories you failed to notice.

Many of the 'qualities' I claim should not exist are because they are aspects of character background, roleplaying, or included in another category *cough*Contacts*cough* - nothing more, nothing less.

Many of the qualities I have removed from my game are included in what I, for lack of a better term, am calling Roleplaying or Background Hooks. Available to players who write out a character background, they give the player the option to include such things as Enemy, or Privilaged Family Name. Should this aspect of their background come into play (at the gamemaster's control, usually), they will receive appropriate benefits or complications, and receive a reduced or increased Karma award for the session, as appropriate (any other players affected by this are subject to a lesser Karma reduction/increase).


See my first reply. It does not give you a contact. It 'modifies' the abilities of an existing contact.

Your family is part of your characteristics, though. It's part of what defines you as a person. Thus, IMO, it is, indeed, a characteristic of the character. This is even more true with Privileged Family Name, because it's the character's name.



Being dependent on others is irrelevant. Fame is a characteristic of a character, and it's intangible. Thus, it fits the definition of a quality.



Wanted does not require a character to possess an Enemy. You must be thinking of Vendetta. That's not relevant, though; Vendetta's effects are still a characteristic of the character and intangible. As for Wanted, it's definitely the iffiest of the ones I didn't include in my initial list. I wouldn't lose any sleep over including it.

Muspellsheimr, would it make you happy if they called those kinds of things "perks" instead? Because seriously, sweating over terminology is ridiculous.

If I made a character with a background where my PC had been used as a test subject by a corporation following an arrest, had been implanted with some cutting-edge ware and they'd stop at nothing to get me back, I'd be describing a character with the positive quality of Restricted Gear and the negative qualities Wanted and Criminal Sin. They are, in fact, innate to the story and concept of the character. Getting hung up on 'innate' being tied to the (meta)physical nature of the PC's form is just pointless.

I've used it. I'd say the 5 BP is worth it considering you don't have to hire an instructor to learn cool new things. Want to learn maneuvers and Martial arts styles? 5 BP is cheaper than some of the prices you pay for repeated Martial Arts instruction...

Not to put words in Musp's mouth but his beef seems to be the same beef I had when I read RC: a lot of the qualities are things that should have been left as background stuff not as codified rules. Sensai and Family Name are 2 good examples. I was giving those out for free due to character description there was no need to spend precious BPs on it. They don't infuriate me quite as much as the Negative qualities that should be personality/background for which you GAIN BPs.

Granted you can throw out whatever you want at the table. Just seemed like such a waste of space.

Unless, you know, you role-play and your contact will do it for free or for favours. All this does is force the GM to let you do that instead of letting the two of you work together to create a fun game. You could have taken those 5 BP and plowed them into whatever contact levels you bought for your Sensei and then had Chuck Norris as your teacher.

The more a player chooses qualities that are not directly affecting their stats the more fun game I get.

There are your PC stats, and then there is the rest of the universe. Don't limit yourself to those numbers, there's so much more out there.

Are you serious? This is Dumpshock, where people argue what "Keep It Simple, Stupid," really means. How can you be shocked at someone quibbling over the definition of what a Quality is?

Because it's not you or mfb, honestly.

In all seriousness, I'm ALWAYS confused when threads devolve into Toturi-style nitpicking of definitions that have no bearing on the dice rolls of the game. Fiddling with the dice and rules is par for the course, but this kind of stuff always reminds me of Clinton's "that depends on the definition of 'is'".

Edit: Just as a note, Toturi only nitpicks canon. He is the master of it.

I am gonna have to agree with Adarael here. People are sounding like they are trying to be lawyers about what the devs put in a book. How about we just come to an agreement and call them Edges and Flaws like it use to be. That would solve the sophism that goes around. You know if you want to call a quality something that can be background or a personality perk and give it out for free in your game then so be it. I know GM's that make you pay for every thing. So lets just go with Edges and Flaws and be happy campers again.

And to the OP of this thread

It sounds to me that Sensei turns an existing contact into some on that has your style and can teach you stuff. It is something that you can buy after Chargen and pretty much attach it to a contact. Whether or not your GM will make you pay for it or what-not that is all your game.

I can't agree w/ a lot of these.

Put simply... a lot of these qualities have some rather nice AND TANGIBLE gameplay side effects. And have POSITIVE effects for the player. Just because someone writes he's god's gift to the world on his background doesn't mean he is. ESPECIALLY if it has a TANGIBLE effect on gameplay. Many of them give actual dice bonuses (whether it's worth it as a quality or not is another issue... but there's little doubt that they're germane to a characters special abilities). EG: Technical training can be viewed as better than "Aptitude" from one point of view... granted the skills it pertains to generally aren't as usefull as something which you'd take aptitude in.


Some of them like family name have that very real effect in gameplay and as such are definately worth a few points if fitting to the character concept. I also find this whole arguing over 'notation' laughable. I think the bigger fallacy here is... "just because I like this as a character background concept, I shouldn't have to pay for it." This is no different than me writing, my character is death incarnate on 2 legs, then not putting any points into any martial skills and expecting what I wrote to come true. Just because you wrote it, doesn't mean you spent commensurate points for the benefit.


I agree on sensei... It's a pretty bad quality. If I make up a 'firefight martial arts instructor' as one of my contacts... he better have some of those relevant instruction skills.

So how much would the death incarnate positive quality cost? To me that sounds like a character quirk. Or maybe you were death incarnate: in your 'hood. Going around making claims like that are going to have a very definite affect on gameplay. On the other hand what does it really hurt to have Family Name for free as part of your background? In any game I run it is going to be as much a negative as a positive to be from a well known family. Since the good and bad would average out in a campaign why should my player have to pay for that dubious benefit?

Cheops:
Priviledge family name: p100 runner's companion.

Lets see... the law handles you with kid gloves and will ignore a lot of what you do "such as being caught carrying a weapon or driving a car w/o a license". -2 social penalty to others trying to intimidate you in your hometown. For a mere 5BP... that's pretty good. It costs the player all of *1* rank in a skill to get it.

It has a tangible game effect, the player gets an advantage over other players with it. It's not a problem in play.


For 5BP it's similar in power and scope to the 'erased' quality... which can wipe your criminal sin or similar and help you keep your anonymity w/ a little bit of time. Erased helps you lose negative info... family name helps you not get it in the first place.


There's my issue... if background is just that background. Great it's good for getting the character in line and his motivations. If it acts like having a network of contacts and significantly affects how NPC's deal w/ the character, then it's quite fitting for them to pay some points for it.

You're saying, why not for free... why not hand out skill ranks 'for free'. Back up your assertion, why should back story give a SIGNIFICANT benefit to one player over another for no cost?

I find martial arts in general to be a blackhole for BP's. Its just close combat right? so martial arts skill 6 or seven and your bruce lee right? wait, specialize. oh, and then take 20 bp of the martail arts quality, and another 20 or so for maneuvers, and if you want to do some really wire-fu stuff you'll need to be an adept. At this point, your so specialized, you might as well throw in a 5 bp Sensei too (p.s. this is just hyperbole to demonstrate an extreme, please do not respond with a myriad of character build options... or do, i guess that would be fun anyway)

Watch Bloodsport and Kickboxer starring Van Damme and realize the original truth of Shadowrun.

You're also skipping the part where it says that the Family Name means that you are known and that not everyone necessarily likes your family. Watch the movie Knockaround Guys if you want to see what can happen when you have a well known mafia family.

With a well known family name you may now potentially be an extraction target. How will your family react when you drag the name through the mud as a result of your criminal activities? What happens when your runner activities start making the FRONT PAGE of the news blogs because your family is well known?

I guess it may be a wonderful quality at your table if such questions get ignored. They don't at mine.

Trust Fund shits me way more than Sensei. 20BP for 10k in accomodation costs paid for is utter bullshit.

If it was luxury or something, or 10BP cheaper, I could agree.

- j.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwtciyrCN00

That is what your Shadowrun game *should* look like, but it can't happen unless someone has a sensei.

You do realise that it's a permanent high lifestyle plus 1000 a month in cash.
Thats pretty nice by my standarts.

Agreed. I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I've yet to design a character from such a lofty start.

If you want the uber RC cheese take Born Rich and Indebted. I'm pretty sure that Born Rich doesn't require you to be a SINner and Indebted actually gives you points back. Play a street sam with 330,000 starting money at the mere cost of 3000 nuyen per month (which replaces your Lifestyle costs thanks to Unwired and your team hacker).

200 attributes
60 nuyen
10 born rich
-30 indebted

leaves 160 points for contacts, skills, and Edge (plus positive qualities -5 for another addiction or some crap). Mind you this isn't quite as broken in SR4A anymore because Skillsofts are now *10,000 but still pretty darn good.


PS. am I missing anything for the points buy? seems like so few things to spend on...

You think that is really worth 20BP?

...

- J.

There is also no particular garauntee that your contact will have any interest in teaching you a god damned thing. The Sensei quality, again, is assurance that yes indeed your relationship has the depth and breadth that includes instruction on a particular topic from a particularly skilled individual. That goes a helluva lot farther than just having a 4/4 Martial Arts Instructor for a contact.

That and player background sometimes needs a mechanical tie-in which Sensei can offer.

Definedly, considering that getting the same think with out the quality would cost 1m (equilevant of 200BP).

Ah, but what is the point then? What is to stop me from starting with a loyalty 2 connection 3 Arnis De Mano teacher? Costs the same, has the exact same effect in game... except you dont take off your Qualities limit.

It is a quality that does nothing then, if it does not even give you a new contact.



No guarantee? If I have a loyalty 2 instructor with connection 3, the GM would have to be a real jerk to have the Sensei turn down the player as a student. Its just silly... what is the contact good for except instructing you?

Thats like getting a Mage Professor contact and calling him asking him a question about how spirits work, and him saying, 'Frag off, I dont like to talk about that stuff when I am not at work." Some GM is just picking on the players at that point.

Darn it, all the qualities I didn't pick are useless. By definition, since I am not using them!

Could someone do my a favor and go around erasing them from all the books out there? Because if I don't care about them, no one else will. I'll help out by posting about how useless I'm finding these qualities I'm not able to find a use for too. That'll help everyone.

Theres a big difference between having a contact teach you unarmed combat up to say, 4, and an initiated Physical Adept take you through initiation and beyond while teaching you the ancient secrets of the most arcane martial arts.

Contacts can do the former but a Sensei would be required for the latter, if you ask me.

And what if you apply sensei to your Fixer, or Talismonger, or something? Most GMs would balk at having a contact do "double duty" like that, but with Sensei, they can.

So your Fixer or Talismonger is a retired Adept, who's stepped out of the shadows to take on a -- moderately -- less dangerous job, while still not going 100% legit. *shrugs* It can make sense, if you're willing to put a little work into it and flesh out your contacts a bit. I don't see it as a problem.

Sure, sure. I mean, I wouldn't buy the contact, and with an amenable GM it wouldn't be a problem. But I could see it being useful for Missions games, or if you had a GM who wasn't feeling it, it might be useful.

See...if I were GMing, I would have fun with a player who did that. Remember: Every quality you take is a potential plot point. You have a Talismonger who is a Sensei?
You should be anticipating that you will have to deal with that Talismonger's "Old Rivals." After all, they could not steal the secrets of their Sensei's school..so they will
go for you, or maybe they will be trying to kidnap your Sensei or your sensei's family...