Lately I've been pondering the idea of trying to setup a sandbox street level game to introduce some friends mostly DnD'ers to shadowrun. Part of it though is that I really dislike chars coming out of chargen w/ obscenely high skills especially in an attempted setting like this.

However, one thing I really absolutely detest about SR4 is that the number of dice is in some cases obscenely low. Also when it is this low, attributes are par excellance the single best source of points... skills get boned. Especially coming out of chargen... karma costs have addressed it a little, but chargen is just as bad as ever.

I don't think the house rule which limits successes to 2xRank is all that helpful. Especially when dealing with small pools.


As another idea, why not double the value of skills in the equation.
Attribute + 2xSkill + mods.


What adverse effects could people think of on the game.

Extended tests for sure. (raise TN by 25% I'd think... also change from -1 to -2 per roll).
Normal tests might need to start ignoring the first hit on some things like the assensing chart. (or adding a minor effect to the bottom of the chart)
But for opposed tests... hmm
Anything putting attribute + skill vs. attribute would need addressed. (EG: dodge skill always gets added to the pool at 1 die per point in ranged combat).
Edge tests would change... but not enough to be a problem (a little less, I add edge before the roll, and a bit more I reroll misses).
That first rank in any skill suddenly becomes really powerfull (as it's a net +3 as you get rid of the -1; Maybe get rid of the defaulting penalty altogether in that case).
Magic tests like summoning would need a little tweaking.
Spellcasting again... att+skill vs. attribrute becomes quite problematic. (granted presence of counterspelling is a wash, but when it isn't present it's a bit too much)

Others think of other potential hiccups or have other thoughts.

Interesting idea. It would change the game a lot, but not "adversely," I think.

Here's an idea; normally you can come out of chargen with one rating 6 skill or two rating 5 skills, and all the rest 4 or less. For this modification (and your own lower-skill-out-of-chargen preferences) I'd drop all of those numbers by one.

You might also want to consider doubling the Essence cost of reflex recorders, as their benefits will be doubled. Improved Ability adept power will receive a similar power boost, but it's not really hot shit to begin with. Maybe just bump it to .75 per level (combat) or .5 per level (physical, social, technical, vehicle). Finally, requiring 15 bp (or 30 karma) for Aptitude wouldn't be a bad idea.

Would you double specializations too, or leave them alone? If I were you, I'd leave them alone. They're a sweet enough deal already.

Another thing to keep in mind; a lot of Matrix tests are skill + program vs. program + hardware, like Hacking + Exploit vs. System + Firewall. Just as long as you do something to balance this, it shouldn't be a problem.

Instead of changing an integral function of the rules, instead consider having them build their characters using the karmagen system. This should result in more skills than higher stats.

Except that he's specifically trying to keep skills low. Street level. Gritty. Gutterpunk. Untrained.

We already use that "optional" rule, and it's made a good bit of diference in making skills matter, especially when with Bioware you can get "stealthy" boosts putting previously "above average" stats clear over the top. Forcing players to leave "hits" in the tray makes them focus on skill over stat or just sheer dice pool. (What good is 21 dice when you only get to keep 2 hits?)

Doubling the skill is a nightmare waiting to happen. If you don't believe me, try it and see.

I would suggest combining both the optional "cap" rule from above with a cap on dice pool modifiers equal to 2x skill. That would make your dice rolls look like this:

Skill + Stat + Modifiers(Max Skill x2) = Hits (Cap=Skill x2)

Skill of 0 = 1 hit max, or 1 die pool modifier max. People with nill skill can't make much of prevailing conditions; That takes skill and experience.

Anyhow, that's a good way to very strongly emphasize skills over everything else without throwing game balance out the lock.

The other possibility would be to have the DP cap set to (Skil + Stat)x2. That's a bit more lenient, but still gets rid of the amateur with twenty dice.

Neraph:
My crusade against karmagen as published should be quite familiar to most of the regulars. I agree in principal. I was writing the above also w/ respect to the karmagen system in fact. We all await w/ baited breath the errata that's supposed to bring other books up to spec w/ SR4a. But that's drifting off-topic.


However for a street level game, where I wouldn't want anyone coming out of chargen with more than a 4 in a single skill... 2 or 3 otherwise. I don't like how small the pools get and how much attributes predominate.

I think SR4 did a good thing by making attributes matter more, the problem is it made them matter too much and undercosted them badly.

Example... if the karma change to attribute improvement were reflected in BP... attributes would be more like 15BP per point now. Or just by raising agility to say 9 or 10 augmented... 1 rank in any gun skill is enough to put you on par w/ almost all the base NPC's w/ any firearm.


Also, this idea originally spun out of an idea of. Hmm why not always have PC's add say half their edge dice to their rolls. since the pool is so low. (also to speed up game since deciding on edge use can take time for some, especially w/ all the different ways to spend it). So I was pondering... for every 2 points of edge, add a colored die to the pool. For any point remaining add a normal. The colored dice get the rule of 6.

Ok, somehow I read your post as saying you want them to get skills instead of stats.

In that case, I would suggest giving the players less BP (say, 300) and reducing the cap of skills at chargen (1 5 and 2 4s, the rest 3 or less, for example). You could also lower the stat cap as well (instead of 1 stat maxed and the rest whatever, 1 stat at 1 below cap, the rest at least 2 lower), and drop availability down to 10 or even 8.

That doesn't solve his problem. His problem is that the dice pools get too small to succeed at anything.

Again... this was considered.

The reason I thought to even make the thread, was not to be dissuaded from the idea, but to explore what was wrong with it. It's a thought experiment on house rules.


The problem w/ the BP system is this. It ENCOURAGES people to max out certain key attributes... because the karma costs later will penalize them even more if they don't. Attribute improvement costs have only made this worse. Yes, I'm a big fan of karmagen in theory and this helps fix some of it. But it doesn't address the problem w/ low skills vs. high attributes.


Karenshara:
Here's my issue w/ the cap on hits... okay we have a character w/ 1 rank in skill... his attribute is 5. 2 hits is about all he can expect. If we go further and get augmented stat of 10, and say 2 ranks in the skill. Again 4 hits is about what is to be expected... you'll throw out the occasional 5 or 6 yes... but the skill never really needs pushed higher than 2 or 3.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.

Encourage high edge? Lower test thresholds?

Basically, if you want your group to have a street-level start, don't complain about them not being able to begin with storming the Arcology. Start off with some smaller-scaled runs, like working for a low-time street gang. Very basic stuff.

Adjust the ratings on locks and whatnot. Don't have the street-slime runners having to get through R6 Maglocks, or hacking Firewall 6 systems on the fly. Start small, and let them grow.

1 skill + 3 attribute vs. threshold 2:

Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.

Next threshold 2:

Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.

He's trying to avoid the high-failure rate that accompanies average stat + low skill, while avoiding having either attributes or skills at absurd levels. He's not planning on throwing them against a AAA corp right off, but really, in order to succeed at street-crime with comfortable regularity you're statted out enough to take on a megacorp with 50-50 odds of success.

You haven't suggested anything that is actually solving the problem he's having, but solving a different problem.

1 skill + 3 stat can not succeed at basic tasks in shadowrun. BASIC TASKS. God forbid you have to attempt a mindless task at skill 0 + 3 stat (0 dice anyone?)

OK, then exactly what RESULT are you hoping for? How do you want the actual games to READ? (Like, let's say you turned each session into a short story? How would you want them to come out?)

Tell me what you want to come out of it, and I'll get back to you. So far, you've listed what you DON'T like, but I haven't seen a clear statement of whay you WANT. For our games, we are a LOT less interested in a final objective than we are in setting a tone: we want veterans to be as much more effective versus newbies as their name might suggest.

Your comptledly ingnoring the positive dice pool modifiers that you can get to most of the tests.
For excample lets take a shooter with 5 agility + 1 skill(specialised) + smartlink, he will definedly get those two hits, but if he raises the skill by one point he has a decent chance to score 4 hits.
And we havent even yeat touched skill that you can actually get some serious amount of positive modifiers, like social skills.

You can easily get dicepool bonuses for most all game rolls that you need.

IE:
Active perception = +3 perception.
Maglock Sequencer = +N lockpicking.
Autopicker = +N lockpicking.
Medkit = +N first aid.
Camouflage Suit = -2 enemies perception (effectively a good boost to your Infiltration).
Chameleon Suit = -4 enemies perception (better than camo).
Laser Sight = +1 attack rolls.
Tracer Rounds = +N attack rolls, based on firing mode and distance.
Smartlink = +2 attack rolls.
Reach = useful, generally.
Personalized Grip = +1 dice to melee attacks/+1 RC.
Programs = +N to matrix tests.
Specializing = +2 to given task.
Favorable Conditions = +N to given task (up to GM).

Here's an example. A guy with lockpicking 1 and 3 agi has a dicepool of 4. Giving him a r3 autopicker or maglock sequencer nearly doubles his pool. Specializing helps even more. Or with ranged weapons, don't forget fun things like Suppresive Fire. or Wide Bursts.

There are also numerous positive qualities that can also help.

Er...

Programs = NO LOGIC, +N, required for matrix tests.

Well, this might not be what you have in mind for your street level game, but it fits in line with mine. If your guys are average stat (3) plus low skill (1), then i would expect them to rarely succeed. Your average thug isn't a runner. A runner doing a task they are designed to do will have at 75% chance of success, 50% if its supposed to be really hard. Doing anything street-level is cake by comparison. They look at a lock and it falls open (suddenly reminded of my epic D&D game).

A street-level game on the other hand should face the same sort of odds at street-level. But again that is for someone that has built their character to do that task. someone with a 4 stat and 3 in a skill (7 DP) has on average 2.33 hits. They should succeed at basic street-level tasks at least 50% of the time. Someone that is built with only 1 in a skill...that means they can do it...but not very well.

As for reworking how skills work... I've thought of doing something like that myself but be aware that it can get messy. You get everything laid out and then something pops up that you didn't think of. I've been trying to rebuild matrix rules for a while so they integrate skills better and the alternatives laid out in unwired are unappealing to me and my players.

I would recommend starting with 300 BP and limiting not only lower starting skill point caps by 1, but doing the something similar with attributes. don't allow them to increase an attribute by higher than 4 (1 under cap), or 2 as high as 2 under cap. May not be the prettiest, but it makes sure you don't have people starting out with a max <whatever> and absurdly low everything else. This will also make sure that (for everyone but the troll) they won't have a really high attribute value to add to dice pools, but still able to have it high enough that they are capable of doing their designed task.

By the way, this works pretty well if you are ever trying to run a resident evil style zombie survival horror game.

So I, in real life, has Ride Bicycle at rank 4 because I don't fall over every time I get on? I haven't ridden in almost a year; I'm pretty sure I can stay on. I never rode far, fast, or under difficult conditions.

This would mean that anyone who's in school can't do anything. In metal shop I'd have sliced off my fingers more than once (Metalworking/Woodworking skill 0, agility 3 = 0 dice to avoiding errors using dangerous machinery).

I'd have failed art (I have no skill at art, I will admit that freely--I can't compete with a four year old in Finger Painting). Outright FAILED, yet I have managed Bs or better in every single one of my art or other creative classes.

I'd have failed every spelling test ever administered (I still can't sbell or tipe for carp). Skill 0 -> 1 die (every 6th spelling quize I'd have gotten a 0%, on average).

My sister would have managed to kill herself through lack of personal hygiene (she's got Incompetent in that skill). One summer her hair turned green, from the chlorine....in tap water (showers without using shampoo).

In real life, your average citizen crashes their car every time they need to make a crash test (ooh, look, and oily spot on the rain slicked road, good luck rolling your 0 to 1 dice and not glitching!)? I had this happen once. I got lucky. 90 degree corner to the left (not an intersection), 30 mph I hit...something. The truck I was driving swung too far to the left, went across oncoming traffic, onto an embankment (it's about a 45 degree hill, if not steeper), missed two trees and the mailbox swerved back onto the road (thanks to the fact that it was a bend in the road), across oncoming traffic again, and back into my own lane going the right direction, without having lost any speed, without overshooting and plunging down a 30 foot near-cliff into the river. And then I had control again, and boy was my front end alignment fucked up.

I spent the next 20 minutes in a parking lot shaking.

In ShadowRun I'd have rolled the car when I hit the hill, run over the mailbox, caused at least one car coming the other way to swerve out of my way, and then plunged down the hill into a tree before sliding into the river, unconscious. I'd have critically glitched, smashed up the car, knocked myself out, and died to the environmental conditions. I have only the standard experience driving cars which in ShadowRun is a driving skill of 0.

But you see... I would place you at least at a Skill of 1 (but probably a 2)... You appear to be a Seasoned Driver... The fact that you spent time immediately afterwards recovering from the adrenaline rush shows that the rush itself did not cause adverse effects on your skill; it was not until afterwards that you succumed to the shakes... you seem pretty skilled to me...

Just a difference in reading the skill fluff is all...

I would place most normal people from 0 to 3 in the skill categories for most things... higher levels indicate longer periods of time with the skill... however, it does not mean that everyone will eventually top out at a 6... generally I see max skill attainment at the 4 Mark for the vast majority of people in normal life experiences...

Given that I drove maybe a few hundred feet to get to the parking lot...shaking the whole way...I doubt it. I will admit that the experience probably gave me the rank, but not prior. Prior I had no extreme conditions to deal with (I was still driving my first "car," which I never really drove anywhere but from home to school).

Here's the spot. I was heading north on 29.

Edit:
I don't remember what year that was, but I do know that my first winter I spent time driving in circles in the snow in the school parking lot, as that morning I'd been unable to make the turn off the street I live on and onto the next. I don't remember if that was before or after the incident mentioned above. It was also low speed to get a feel for how to brake on a slick surface.

Didn't do me much good, as I have a newer car now (Nissan Maxima) and I missed the same corner in the snow this last winter, going the other direction and ran into a tree, rather than a curb.

Hey... No matter how skilled you are in anything, occasionally you will fail... happens to everyone... that is why we are mortal and not those annoying Elves that have been around forever...

True, and I was a little cocky that time too. The snow had only just started a minute or two before.

Still, the reverse is also true: you get lucky sometimes. ShadowRun only allows that through edge when you don't have any skill dice to throw.

(And if Edge were burnable to prevent death and there was a limited amount, I'd not be alive; my grandfather had more than his share of getting lucky and not dying from doing something stupid...before he was 20).

THere is that of course...

Potential hiccup:

Using 2x skill, without increasing thresholds, will result in more critical successes and fewer glitches, particularly when dice pools get high.

We've played with halved skill costs for ages (Frank's houserule, was it?). Amounts to pretty much the same thing, without touching gameplay.

2BP active skills, 1BP specializations and knowledge skills. We use BPs instead of Karma throughout the game, keeping it simple, but I guess you could do the same with Karma.

Bam! Skills are twice as attractive, gameplay stays simple and people end up with more skills (and more rounded characters).