Lately I've been pondering the idea of trying to setup a sandbox street level game to introduce some friends mostly DnD'ers to shadowrun. Part of it though is that I really dislike chars coming out of chargen w/ obscenely high skills especially in an attempted setting like this.
However, one thing I really absolutely detest about SR4 is that the number of dice is in some cases obscenely low. Also when it is this low, attributes are par excellance the single best source of points... skills get boned. Especially coming out of chargen... karma costs have addressed it a little, but chargen is just as bad as ever.
I don't think the house rule which limits successes to 2xRank is all that helpful. Especially when dealing with small pools.
As another idea, why not double the value of skills in the equation.
Attribute + 2xSkill + mods.
What adverse effects could people think of on the game.
Extended tests for sure. (raise TN by 25% I'd think... also change from -1 to -2 per roll).
Normal tests might need to start ignoring the first hit on some things like the assensing chart. (or adding a minor effect to the bottom of the chart)
But for opposed tests... hmm
Anything putting attribute + skill vs. attribute would need addressed. (EG: dodge skill always gets added to the pool at 1 die per point in ranged combat).
Edge tests would change... but not enough to be a problem (a little less, I add edge before the roll, and a bit more I reroll misses).
That first rank in any skill suddenly becomes really powerfull (as it's a net +3 as you get rid of the -1; Maybe get rid of the defaulting penalty altogether in that case).
Magic tests like summoning would need a little tweaking.
Spellcasting again... att+skill vs. attribrute becomes quite problematic. (granted presence of counterspelling is a wash, but when it isn't present it's a bit too much)
Others think of other potential hiccups or have other thoughts.
Full Version: Making skills matter
Interesting idea. It would change the game a lot, but not "adversely," I think.
Here's an idea; normally you can come out of chargen with one rating 6 skill or two rating 5 skills, and all the rest 4 or less. For this modification (and your own lower-skill-out-of-chargen preferences) I'd drop all of those numbers by one.
You might also want to consider doubling the Essence cost of reflex recorders, as their benefits will be doubled. Improved Ability adept power will receive a similar power boost, but it's not really hot shit to begin with. Maybe just bump it to .75 per level (combat) or .5 per level (physical, social, technical, vehicle). Finally, requiring 15 bp (or 30 karma) for Aptitude wouldn't be a bad idea.
Would you double specializations too, or leave them alone? If I were you, I'd leave them alone. They're a sweet enough deal already.
Another thing to keep in mind; a lot of Matrix tests are skill + program vs. program + hardware, like Hacking + Exploit vs. System + Firewall. Just as long as you do something to balance this, it shouldn't be a problem.
Here's an idea; normally you can come out of chargen with one rating 6 skill or two rating 5 skills, and all the rest 4 or less. For this modification (and your own lower-skill-out-of-chargen preferences) I'd drop all of those numbers by one.
You might also want to consider doubling the Essence cost of reflex recorders, as their benefits will be doubled. Improved Ability adept power will receive a similar power boost, but it's not really hot shit to begin with. Maybe just bump it to .75 per level (combat) or .5 per level (physical, social, technical, vehicle). Finally, requiring 15 bp (or 30 karma) for Aptitude wouldn't be a bad idea.
Would you double specializations too, or leave them alone? If I were you, I'd leave them alone. They're a sweet enough deal already.
Another thing to keep in mind; a lot of Matrix tests are skill + program vs. program + hardware, like Hacking + Exploit vs. System + Firewall. Just as long as you do something to balance this, it shouldn't be a problem.
Instead of changing an integral function of the rules, instead consider having them build their characters using the karmagen system. This should result in more skills than higher stats.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 18 2009, 12:08 PM) 
Instead of changing an integral function of the rules, instead consider having them build their characters using the karmagen system. This should result in more skills than higher stats.
Except that he's specifically trying to keep skills low. Street level. Gritty. Gutterpunk. Untrained.
We already use that "optional" rule, and it's made a good bit of diference in making skills matter, especially when with Bioware you can get "stealthy" boosts putting previously "above average" stats clear over the top. Forcing players to leave "hits" in the tray makes them focus on skill over stat or just sheer dice pool. (What good is 21 dice when you only get to keep 2 hits?)
Doubling the skill is a nightmare waiting to happen. If you don't believe me, try it and see.
I would suggest combining both the optional "cap" rule from above with a cap on dice pool modifiers equal to 2x skill. That would make your dice rolls look like this:
Skill + Stat + Modifiers(Max Skill x2) = Hits (Cap=Skill x2)
Skill of 0 = 1 hit max, or 1 die pool modifier max. People with nill skill can't make much of prevailing conditions; That takes skill and experience.
Anyhow, that's a good way to very strongly emphasize skills over everything else without throwing game balance out the lock.
The other possibility would be to have the DP cap set to (Skil + Stat)x2. That's a bit more lenient, but still gets rid of the amateur with twenty dice.
Doubling the skill is a nightmare waiting to happen. If you don't believe me, try it and see.
I would suggest combining both the optional "cap" rule from above with a cap on dice pool modifiers equal to 2x skill. That would make your dice rolls look like this:
Skill + Stat + Modifiers(Max Skill x2) = Hits (Cap=Skill x2)
Skill of 0 = 1 hit max, or 1 die pool modifier max. People with nill skill can't make much of prevailing conditions; That takes skill and experience.
Anyhow, that's a good way to very strongly emphasize skills over everything else without throwing game balance out the lock.
The other possibility would be to have the DP cap set to (Skil + Stat)x2. That's a bit more lenient, but still gets rid of the amateur with twenty dice.
Neraph:
My crusade against karmagen as published should be quite familiar to most of the regulars. I agree in principal. I was writing the above also w/ respect to the karmagen system in fact. We all await w/ baited breath the errata that's supposed to bring other books up to spec w/ SR4a. But that's drifting off-topic.
However for a street level game, where I wouldn't want anyone coming out of chargen with more than a 4 in a single skill... 2 or 3 otherwise. I don't like how small the pools get and how much attributes predominate.
I think SR4 did a good thing by making attributes matter more, the problem is it made them matter too much and undercosted them badly.
Example... if the karma change to attribute improvement were reflected in BP... attributes would be more like 15BP per point now. Or just by raising agility to say 9 or 10 augmented... 1 rank in any gun skill is enough to put you on par w/ almost all the base NPC's w/ any firearm.
Also, this idea originally spun out of an idea of. Hmm why not always have PC's add say half their edge dice to their rolls. since the pool is so low. (also to speed up game since deciding on edge use can take time for some, especially w/ all the different ways to spend it). So I was pondering... for every 2 points of edge, add a colored die to the pool. For any point remaining add a normal. The colored dice get the rule of 6.
My crusade against karmagen as published should be quite familiar to most of the regulars. I agree in principal. I was writing the above also w/ respect to the karmagen system in fact. We all await w/ baited breath the errata that's supposed to bring other books up to spec w/ SR4a. But that's drifting off-topic.
However for a street level game, where I wouldn't want anyone coming out of chargen with more than a 4 in a single skill... 2 or 3 otherwise. I don't like how small the pools get and how much attributes predominate.
I think SR4 did a good thing by making attributes matter more, the problem is it made them matter too much and undercosted them badly.
Example... if the karma change to attribute improvement were reflected in BP... attributes would be more like 15BP per point now. Or just by raising agility to say 9 or 10 augmented... 1 rank in any gun skill is enough to put you on par w/ almost all the base NPC's w/ any firearm.
Also, this idea originally spun out of an idea of. Hmm why not always have PC's add say half their edge dice to their rolls. since the pool is so low. (also to speed up game since deciding on edge use can take time for some, especially w/ all the different ways to spend it). So I was pondering... for every 2 points of edge, add a colored die to the pool. For any point remaining add a normal. The colored dice get the rule of 6.
Ok, somehow I read your post as saying you want them to get skills instead of stats.
In that case, I would suggest giving the players less BP (say, 300) and reducing the cap of skills at chargen (1 5 and 2 4s, the rest 3 or less, for example). You could also lower the stat cap as well (instead of 1 stat maxed and the rest whatever, 1 stat at 1 below cap, the rest at least 2 lower), and drop availability down to 10 or even 8.
In that case, I would suggest giving the players less BP (say, 300) and reducing the cap of skills at chargen (1 5 and 2 4s, the rest 3 or less, for example). You could also lower the stat cap as well (instead of 1 stat maxed and the rest whatever, 1 stat at 1 below cap, the rest at least 2 lower), and drop availability down to 10 or even 8.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 18 2009, 12:22 PM)
Ok, somehow I read your post as saying you want them to get skills instead of stats.
In that case, I would suggest giving the players less BP (say, 300) and reducing the cap of skills at chargen (1 5 and 2 4s, the rest 3 or less, for example). You could also lower the stat cap as well (instead of 1 stat maxed and the rest whatever, 1 stat at 1 below cap, the rest at least 2 lower), and drop availability down to 10 or even 8.
In that case, I would suggest giving the players less BP (say, 300) and reducing the cap of skills at chargen (1 5 and 2 4s, the rest 3 or less, for example). You could also lower the stat cap as well (instead of 1 stat maxed and the rest whatever, 1 stat at 1 below cap, the rest at least 2 lower), and drop availability down to 10 or even 8.
That doesn't solve his problem. His problem is that the dice pools get too small to succeed at anything.
Again... this was considered.
The reason I thought to even make the thread, was not to be dissuaded from the idea, but to explore what was wrong with it. It's a thought experiment on house rules.
The problem w/ the BP system is this. It ENCOURAGES people to max out certain key attributes... because the karma costs later will penalize them even more if they don't. Attribute improvement costs have only made this worse. Yes, I'm a big fan of karmagen in theory and this helps fix some of it. But it doesn't address the problem w/ low skills vs. high attributes.
Karenshara:
Here's my issue w/ the cap on hits... okay we have a character w/ 1 rank in skill... his attribute is 5. 2 hits is about all he can expect. If we go further and get augmented stat of 10, and say 2 ranks in the skill. Again 4 hits is about what is to be expected... you'll throw out the occasional 5 or 6 yes... but the skill never really needs pushed higher than 2 or 3.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.
The reason I thought to even make the thread, was not to be dissuaded from the idea, but to explore what was wrong with it. It's a thought experiment on house rules.
The problem w/ the BP system is this. It ENCOURAGES people to max out certain key attributes... because the karma costs later will penalize them even more if they don't. Attribute improvement costs have only made this worse. Yes, I'm a big fan of karmagen in theory and this helps fix some of it. But it doesn't address the problem w/ low skills vs. high attributes.
Karenshara:
Here's my issue w/ the cap on hits... okay we have a character w/ 1 rank in skill... his attribute is 5. 2 hits is about all he can expect. If we go further and get augmented stat of 10, and say 2 ranks in the skill. Again 4 hits is about what is to be expected... you'll throw out the occasional 5 or 6 yes... but the skill never really needs pushed higher than 2 or 3.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.
Encourage high edge? Lower test thresholds?
Basically, if you want your group to have a street-level start, don't complain about them not being able to begin with storming the Arcology. Start off with some smaller-scaled runs, like working for a low-time street gang. Very basic stuff.
Adjust the ratings on locks and whatnot. Don't have the street-slime runners having to get through R6 Maglocks, or hacking Firewall 6 systems on the fly. Start small, and let them grow.
Basically, if you want your group to have a street-level start, don't complain about them not being able to begin with storming the Arcology. Start off with some smaller-scaled runs, like working for a low-time street gang. Very basic stuff.
Adjust the ratings on locks and whatnot. Don't have the street-slime runners having to get through R6 Maglocks, or hacking Firewall 6 systems on the fly. Start small, and let them grow.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 18 2009, 12:37 PM)
Encourage high edge? Lower test thresholds?
Basically, if you want your group to have a street-level start, don't complain about them not being able to begin with storming the Arcology. Start off with some smaller-scaled runs, like working for a low-time street gang. Very basic stuff.
Adjust the ratings on locks and whatnot. Don't have the street-slime runners having to get through R6 Maglocks, or hacking Firewall 6 systems on the fly. Start small, and let them grow.
Basically, if you want your group to have a street-level start, don't complain about them not being able to begin with storming the Arcology. Start off with some smaller-scaled runs, like working for a low-time street gang. Very basic stuff.
Adjust the ratings on locks and whatnot. Don't have the street-slime runners having to get through R6 Maglocks, or hacking Firewall 6 systems on the fly. Start small, and let them grow.
1 skill + 3 attribute vs. threshold 2:
Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.
Next threshold 2:
Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.
He's trying to avoid the high-failure rate that accompanies average stat + low skill, while avoiding having either attributes or skills at absurd levels. He's not planning on throwing them against a AAA corp right off, but really, in order to succeed at street-crime with comfortable regularity you're statted out enough to take on a megacorp with 50-50 odds of success.
You haven't suggested anything that is actually solving the problem he's having, but solving a different problem.
1 skill + 3 stat can not succeed at basic tasks in shadowrun. BASIC TASKS. God forbid you have to attempt a mindless task at skill 0 + 3 stat (0 dice anyone?)
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 18 2009, 11:32 AM)
Karenshara:
Here's my issue w/ the cap on hits... okay we have a character w/ 1 rank in skill... his attribute is 5. 2 hits is about all he can expect. If we go further and get augmented stat of 10, and say 2 ranks in the skill. Again 4 hits is about what is to be expected... you'll throw out the occasional 5 or 6 yes... but the skill never really needs pushed higher than 2 or 3.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.
Here's my issue w/ the cap on hits... okay we have a character w/ 1 rank in skill... his attribute is 5. 2 hits is about all he can expect. If we go further and get augmented stat of 10, and say 2 ranks in the skill. Again 4 hits is about what is to be expected... you'll throw out the occasional 5 or 6 yes... but the skill never really needs pushed higher than 2 or 3.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.
OK, then exactly what RESULT are you hoping for? How do you want the actual games to READ? (Like, let's say you turned each session into a short story? How would you want them to come out?)
Tell me what you want to come out of it, and I'll get back to you. So far, you've listed what you DON'T like, but I haven't seen a clear statement of whay you WANT. For our games, we are a LOT less interested in a final objective than we are in setting a tone: we want veterans to be as much more effective versus newbies as their name might suggest.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 18 2009, 07:32 PM)
Here's my issue w/ the cap on hits... okay we have a character w/ 1 rank in skill... his attribute is 5. 2 hits is about all he can expect. If we go further and get augmented stat of 10, and say 2 ranks in the skill. Again 4 hits is about what is to be expected... you'll throw out the occasional 5 or 6 yes... but the skill never really needs pushed higher than 2 or 3.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.
Especially when spending edge removes the cap for critical tests. (IIRC that was correct).
Changing the cap doesn't work well... 1 hit is not enough, 2 hits is too much. Fractions aren't all that elegant.
Your comptledly ingnoring the positive dice pool modifiers that you can get to most of the tests.
For excample lets take a shooter with 5 agility + 1 skill(specialised) + smartlink, he will definedly get those two hits, but if he raises the skill by one point he has a decent chance to score 4 hits.
And we havent even yeat touched skill that you can actually get some serious amount of positive modifiers, like social skills.
You can easily get dicepool bonuses for most all game rolls that you need.
IE:
Active perception = +3 perception.
Maglock Sequencer = +N lockpicking.
Autopicker = +N lockpicking.
Medkit = +N first aid.
Camouflage Suit = -2 enemies perception (effectively a good boost to your Infiltration).
Chameleon Suit = -4 enemies perception (better than camo).
Laser Sight = +1 attack rolls.
Tracer Rounds = +N attack rolls, based on firing mode and distance.
Smartlink = +2 attack rolls.
Reach = useful, generally.
Personalized Grip = +1 dice to melee attacks/+1 RC.
Programs = +N to matrix tests.
Specializing = +2 to given task.
Favorable Conditions = +N to given task (up to GM).
Here's an example. A guy with lockpicking 1 and 3 agi has a dicepool of 4. Giving him a r3 autopicker or maglock sequencer nearly doubles his pool. Specializing helps even more. Or with ranged weapons, don't forget fun things like Suppresive Fire. or Wide Bursts.
There are also numerous positive qualities that can also help.
IE:
Active perception = +3 perception.
Maglock Sequencer = +N lockpicking.
Autopicker = +N lockpicking.
Medkit = +N first aid.
Camouflage Suit = -2 enemies perception (effectively a good boost to your Infiltration).
Chameleon Suit = -4 enemies perception (better than camo).
Laser Sight = +1 attack rolls.
Tracer Rounds = +N attack rolls, based on firing mode and distance.
Smartlink = +2 attack rolls.
Reach = useful, generally.
Personalized Grip = +1 dice to melee attacks/+1 RC.
Programs = +N to matrix tests.
Specializing = +2 to given task.
Favorable Conditions = +N to given task (up to GM).
Here's an example. A guy with lockpicking 1 and 3 agi has a dicepool of 4. Giving him a r3 autopicker or maglock sequencer nearly doubles his pool. Specializing helps even more. Or with ranged weapons, don't forget fun things like Suppresive Fire. or Wide Bursts.
There are also numerous positive qualities that can also help.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 18 2009, 01:16 PM)
Programs = +N to matrix tests.
Er...
Programs = NO LOGIC, +N, required for matrix tests.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 18 2009, 12:44 PM)
1 skill + 3 attribute vs. threshold 2:
Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.
Next threshold 2:
Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.
Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.
Next threshold 2:
Fail. Fail. Fail. Success.
Well, this might not be what you have in mind for your street level game, but it fits in line with mine. If your guys are average stat (3) plus low skill (1), then i would expect them to rarely succeed. Your average thug isn't a runner. A runner doing a task they are designed to do will have at 75% chance of success, 50% if its supposed to be really hard. Doing anything street-level is cake by comparison. They look at a lock and it falls open (suddenly reminded of my epic D&D game).
A street-level game on the other hand should face the same sort of odds at street-level. But again that is for someone that has built their character to do that task. someone with a 4 stat and 3 in a skill (7 DP) has on average 2.33 hits. They should succeed at basic street-level tasks at least 50% of the time. Someone that is built with only 1 in a skill...that means they can do it...but not very well.
As for reworking how skills work... I've thought of doing something like that myself but be aware that it can get messy. You get everything laid out and then something pops up that you didn't think of. I've been trying to rebuild matrix rules for a while so they integrate skills better and the alternatives laid out in unwired are unappealing to me and my players.
I would recommend starting with 300 BP and limiting not only lower starting skill point caps by 1, but doing the something similar with attributes. don't allow them to increase an attribute by higher than 4 (1 under cap), or 2 as high as 2 under cap. May not be the prettiest, but it makes sure you don't have people starting out with a max <whatever> and absurdly low everything else. This will also make sure that (for everyone but the troll) they won't have a really high attribute value to add to dice pools, but still able to have it high enough that they are capable of doing their designed task.
By the way, this works pretty well if you are ever trying to run a resident evil style zombie survival horror game.
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Jul 18 2009, 01:29 PM)
Well, this might not be what you have in mind for your street level game, but it fits in line with mine. If your guys are average stat (3) plus low skill (1), then i would expect them to rarely succeed. Your average thug isn't a runner. A runner doing a task they are designed to do will have at 75% chance of success, 50% if its supposed to be really hard. Doing anything street-level is cake by comparison. They look at a lock and it falls open (suddenly reminded of my epic D&D game).
So I, in real life, has Ride Bicycle at rank 4 because I don't fall over every time I get on? I haven't ridden in almost a year; I'm pretty sure I can stay on. I never rode far, fast, or under difficult conditions.
This would mean that anyone who's in school can't do anything. In metal shop I'd have sliced off my fingers more than once (Metalworking/Woodworking skill 0, agility 3 = 0 dice to avoiding errors using dangerous machinery).
I'd have failed art (I have no skill at art, I will admit that freely--I can't compete with a four year old in Finger Painting). Outright FAILED, yet I have managed Bs or better in every single one of my art or other creative classes.
I'd have failed every spelling test ever administered (I still can't sbell or tipe for carp). Skill 0 -> 1 die (every 6th spelling quize I'd have gotten a 0%, on average).
My sister would have managed to kill herself through lack of personal hygiene (she's got Incompetent in that skill). One summer her hair turned green, from the chlorine....in tap water (showers without using shampoo).
In real life, your average citizen crashes their car every time they need to make a crash test (ooh, look, and oily spot on the rain slicked road, good luck rolling your 0 to 1 dice and not glitching!)? I had this happen once. I got lucky. 90 degree corner to the left (not an intersection), 30 mph I hit...something. The truck I was driving swung too far to the left, went across oncoming traffic, onto an embankment (it's about a 45 degree hill, if not steeper), missed two trees and the mailbox swerved back onto the road (thanks to the fact that it was a bend in the road), across oncoming traffic again, and back into my own lane going the right direction, without having lost any speed, without overshooting and plunging down a 30 foot near-cliff into the river. And then I had control again, and boy was my front end alignment fucked up.
I spent the next 20 minutes in a parking lot shaking.
In ShadowRun I'd have rolled the car when I hit the hill, run over the mailbox, caused at least one car coming the other way to swerve out of my way, and then plunged down the hill into a tree before sliding into the river, unconscious. I'd have critically glitched, smashed up the car, knocked myself out, and died to the environmental conditions. I have only the standard experience driving cars which in ShadowRun is a driving skill of 0.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 18 2009, 11:50 AM)
So I, in real life, has Ride Bicycle at rank 4 because I don't fall over every time I get on? I haven't ridden in almost a year; I'm pretty sure I can stay on. I never rode far, fast, or under difficult conditions.
This would mean that anyone who's in school can't do anything. In metal shop I'd have sliced off my fingers more than once (Metalworking/Woodworking skill 0, agility 3 = 0 dice to avoiding errors using dangerous machinery).
I'd have failed art (I have no skill at art, I will admit that freely--I can't compete with a four year old in Finger Painting). Outright FAILED, yet I have managed Bs or better in every single one of my art or other creative classes.
I'd have failed every spelling test ever administered (I still can't sbell or tipe for carp). Skill 0 -> 1 die (every 6th spelling quize I'd have gotten a 0%, on average).
My sister would have managed to kill herself through lack of personal hygiene (she's got Incompetent in that skill). One summer her hair turned green, from the chlorine....in tap water (showers without using shampoo).
In real life, your average citizen crashes their car every time they need to make a crash test (ooh, look, and oily spot on the rain slicked road, good luck rolling your 0 to 1 dice and not glitching!)? I had this happen once. I got lucky. 90 degree corner to the left (not an intersection), 30 mph I hit...something. The truck I was driving swung too far to the left, went across oncoming traffic, onto an embankment (it's about a 45 degree hill, if not steeper), missed two trees and the mailbox swerved back onto the road (thanks to the fact that it was a bend in the road), across oncoming traffic again, and back into my own lane going the right direction, without having lost any speed, without overshooting and plunging down a 30 foot near-cliff into the river. And then I had control again, and boy was my front end alignment fucked up.
I spent the next 20 minutes in a parking lot shaking.
In ShadowRun I'd have rolled the car when I hit the hill, run over the mailbox, caused at least one car coming the other way to swerve out of my way, and then plunged down the hill into a tree before sliding into the river, unconscious. I'd have critically glitched, smashed up the car, knocked myself out, and died to the environmental conditions. I have only the standard experience driving cars which in ShadowRun is a driving skill of 0.
This would mean that anyone who's in school can't do anything. In metal shop I'd have sliced off my fingers more than once (Metalworking/Woodworking skill 0, agility 3 = 0 dice to avoiding errors using dangerous machinery).
I'd have failed art (I have no skill at art, I will admit that freely--I can't compete with a four year old in Finger Painting). Outright FAILED, yet I have managed Bs or better in every single one of my art or other creative classes.
I'd have failed every spelling test ever administered (I still can't sbell or tipe for carp). Skill 0 -> 1 die (every 6th spelling quize I'd have gotten a 0%, on average).
My sister would have managed to kill herself through lack of personal hygiene (she's got Incompetent in that skill). One summer her hair turned green, from the chlorine....in tap water (showers without using shampoo).
In real life, your average citizen crashes their car every time they need to make a crash test (ooh, look, and oily spot on the rain slicked road, good luck rolling your 0 to 1 dice and not glitching!)? I had this happen once. I got lucky. 90 degree corner to the left (not an intersection), 30 mph I hit...something. The truck I was driving swung too far to the left, went across oncoming traffic, onto an embankment (it's about a 45 degree hill, if not steeper), missed two trees and the mailbox swerved back onto the road (thanks to the fact that it was a bend in the road), across oncoming traffic again, and back into my own lane going the right direction, without having lost any speed, without overshooting and plunging down a 30 foot near-cliff into the river. And then I had control again, and boy was my front end alignment fucked up.
I spent the next 20 minutes in a parking lot shaking.
In ShadowRun I'd have rolled the car when I hit the hill, run over the mailbox, caused at least one car coming the other way to swerve out of my way, and then plunged down the hill into a tree before sliding into the river, unconscious. I'd have critically glitched, smashed up the car, knocked myself out, and died to the environmental conditions. I have only the standard experience driving cars which in ShadowRun is a driving skill of 0.
But you see... I would place you at least at a Skill of 1 (but probably a 2)... You appear to be a Seasoned Driver... The fact that you spent time immediately afterwards recovering from the adrenaline rush shows that the rush itself did not cause adverse effects on your skill; it was not until afterwards that you succumed to the shakes... you seem pretty skilled to me...
Just a difference in reading the skill fluff is all...
I would place most normal people from 0 to 3 in the skill categories for most things... higher levels indicate longer periods of time with the skill... however, it does not mean that everyone will eventually top out at a 6... generally I see max skill attainment at the 4 Mark for the vast majority of people in normal life experiences...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2009, 02:25 PM)
But you see... I would place you at least at a Skill of 1 (but probably a 2)... You appear to be a Seasoned Driver... The fact that you spent time immediately afterwards recovering from the adrenaline rush shows that the rush itself did not cause adverse effects on your skill; it was not until afterwards that you succumed to the shakes... you seem pretty skilled to me...
Given that I drove maybe a few hundred feet to get to the parking lot...shaking the whole way...I doubt it. I will admit that the experience probably gave me the rank, but not prior. Prior I had no extreme conditions to deal with (I was still driving my first "car," which I never really drove anywhere but from home to school).
Here's the spot. I was heading north on 29.
Edit:
I don't remember what year that was, but I do know that my first winter I spent time driving in circles in the snow in the school parking lot, as that morning I'd been unable to make the turn off the street I live on and onto the next. I don't remember if that was before or after the incident mentioned above. It was also low speed to get a feel for how to brake on a slick surface.
Didn't do me much good, as I have a newer car now (Nissan Maxima) and I missed the same corner in the snow this last winter, going the other direction and ran into a tree, rather than a curb.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 18 2009, 12:29 PM)
Given that I drove maybe a few hundred feet to get to the parking lot...shaking the whole way...I doubt it. I will admit that the experience probably gave me the rank, but not prior. Prior I had no extreme conditions to deal with (I was still driving my first "car," which I never really drove anywhere but from home to school).
Here's the spot. I was heading north on 29.
Edit:
I don't remember what year that was, but I do know that my first winter I spent time driving in circles in the snow in the school parking lot, as that morning I'd been unable to make the turn off the street I live on and onto the next. I don't remember if that was before or after the incident mentioned above. It was also low speed to get a feel for how to brake on a slick surface.
Didn't do me much good, as I have a newer car now (Nissan Maxima) and I missed the same corner in the snow this last winter, going the other direction and ran into a tree, rather than a curb.
Here's the spot. I was heading north on 29.
Edit:
I don't remember what year that was, but I do know that my first winter I spent time driving in circles in the snow in the school parking lot, as that morning I'd been unable to make the turn off the street I live on and onto the next. I don't remember if that was before or after the incident mentioned above. It was also low speed to get a feel for how to brake on a slick surface.
Didn't do me much good, as I have a newer car now (Nissan Maxima) and I missed the same corner in the snow this last winter, going the other direction and ran into a tree, rather than a curb.
Hey... No matter how skilled you are in anything, occasionally you will fail... happens to everyone... that is why we are mortal and not those annoying Elves that have been around forever...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2009, 02:37 PM)
Hey... No matter how skilled you are in anything, occasionally you will fail... happens to everyone... that is why we are mortal and not those annoying Elves that have been around forever...
True, and I was a little cocky that time too. The snow had only just started a minute or two before.
Still, the reverse is also true: you get lucky sometimes. ShadowRun only allows that through edge when you don't have any skill dice to throw.
(And if Edge were burnable to prevent death and there was a limited amount, I'd not be alive; my grandfather had more than his share of getting lucky and not dying from doing something stupid...before he was 20).
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 18 2009, 12:42 PM)
True, and I was a little cocky that time too. The snow had only just started a minute or two before.
Still, the reverse is also true: you get lucky sometimes. ShadowRun only allows that through edge when you don't have any skill dice to throw.
(And if Edge were burnable to prevent death and there was a limited amount, I'd not be alive; my grandfather had more than his share of getting lucky and not dying from doing something stupid...before he was 20).
Still, the reverse is also true: you get lucky sometimes. ShadowRun only allows that through edge when you don't have any skill dice to throw.
(And if Edge were burnable to prevent death and there was a limited amount, I'd not be alive; my grandfather had more than his share of getting lucky and not dying from doing something stupid...before he was 20).
THere is that of course...
Potential hiccup:
Using 2x skill, without increasing thresholds, will result in more critical successes and fewer glitches, particularly when dice pools get high.
Using 2x skill, without increasing thresholds, will result in more critical successes and fewer glitches, particularly when dice pools get high.
QUOTE
What adverse effects could people think of on the game.
Extended tests for sure. (raise TN by 25% I'd think... also change from -1 to -2 per roll).
Extended tests for sure. (raise TN by 25% I'd think... also change from -1 to -2 per roll).
We've played with halved skill costs for ages (Frank's houserule, was it?). Amounts to pretty much the same thing, without touching gameplay.
2BP active skills, 1BP specializations and knowledge skills. We use BPs instead of Karma throughout the game, keeping it simple, but I guess you could do the same with Karma.
Bam! Skills are twice as attractive, gameplay stays simple and people end up with more skills (and more rounded characters).
2BP active skills, 1BP specializations and knowledge skills. We use BPs instead of Karma throughout the game, keeping it simple, but I guess you could do the same with Karma.
Bam! Skills are twice as attractive, gameplay stays simple and people end up with more skills (and more rounded characters).
I tend to think that the SR4 ratio of Attribute to Skill does a fine job of abstractly representing the reality of a situation. A person's natural attributes are the single most important factor in their ability to do anything, a fact that we take for granted because we, as people, tend towards the average and our differences are mostly in skill-set.
Falconer, what you are suggesting is a game where average people are rank amateurs in most things, and professionally capable in only one or two, and expecting that these people can accomplish tasks who's challenge ratings are set for professionals. A threshold of 1 is easy, but with chance of failure, for someone who could expect to make a living off of their skill. Anything that a professional won't fail at can be ignored, or not rolled. Most activities are things a person either knows how to do, or doesn't, with either a complete chance of failure or none. For everything else, those without the skill are simply trying to brute force their way through tasks by applying their attributes and their paltry knowledge. More often then not, if a professional could fail at something, an amateur will.
Which explains why you dislike the smaller dice pools in this case, because there's less nuance involved. You're attempting to run a game for beginners, and trying to work with different levels of incompetence. That's not what Shadowrun was designed for. It's intended to play smoothly for professionals whose abilities are rated in how much better they are than most people. Nuance was sacrificed in the name of ease of use in certain ways, though not to the degree other games have done.
Gameplay Advice
Now, it may be possible to beat your head against the rules until you've come up with something that feels like what you're going for, but I think the simpler solution is use the power levels intended for the game, and use the tone and trappings of the story to invoke the street level amateur feel you're going for. Either that, or play at a lower level and accept that things that must be rolled for (due to a chance of failure) will most likely fail, but have fewer of these challenges than you would give a team of professionals. Of course, I don't see this as being a satisfactory experience.
But I suppose that's my personal problem with what you're suggesting for the game. You're likely enamored with the dark, challenging grittiness of being a nobody on the streets, trying to scrape by and making to a level where people even care who you are. This makes for a strong story, but a terrible play experience, unless everyone involved is looking for that kind of story. Shadowrun, by default, starts you just after this stage of the streets, where you've hit a point that you can be counted on to succeed at things that not just anybody can do.
Rules Possibilities
While my advice is to reconsider the type of game you want to play, I can offer you a potential solution to your problem. Change the target number of hits from 5 to 4 and adjust thresholds accordingly: Very Easy: 1, Easy: 2, Low Moderate: 3, High Moderate: 4, Difficult: 5, Very Difficult: 6+. This will have some unintended side effects when dealing with net hits, but I believe most of that will involve damage, so Condition Monitors would probably have to be increased by 1/3rd as well, while changing damage penalties from ever 3 boxes to every 4. This should give you the nuance you need while staying mostly internally balanced.
Falconer, what you are suggesting is a game where average people are rank amateurs in most things, and professionally capable in only one or two, and expecting that these people can accomplish tasks who's challenge ratings are set for professionals. A threshold of 1 is easy, but with chance of failure, for someone who could expect to make a living off of their skill. Anything that a professional won't fail at can be ignored, or not rolled. Most activities are things a person either knows how to do, or doesn't, with either a complete chance of failure or none. For everything else, those without the skill are simply trying to brute force their way through tasks by applying their attributes and their paltry knowledge. More often then not, if a professional could fail at something, an amateur will.
Which explains why you dislike the smaller dice pools in this case, because there's less nuance involved. You're attempting to run a game for beginners, and trying to work with different levels of incompetence. That's not what Shadowrun was designed for. It's intended to play smoothly for professionals whose abilities are rated in how much better they are than most people. Nuance was sacrificed in the name of ease of use in certain ways, though not to the degree other games have done.
Gameplay Advice
Now, it may be possible to beat your head against the rules until you've come up with something that feels like what you're going for, but I think the simpler solution is use the power levels intended for the game, and use the tone and trappings of the story to invoke the street level amateur feel you're going for. Either that, or play at a lower level and accept that things that must be rolled for (due to a chance of failure) will most likely fail, but have fewer of these challenges than you would give a team of professionals. Of course, I don't see this as being a satisfactory experience.
But I suppose that's my personal problem with what you're suggesting for the game. You're likely enamored with the dark, challenging grittiness of being a nobody on the streets, trying to scrape by and making to a level where people even care who you are. This makes for a strong story, but a terrible play experience, unless everyone involved is looking for that kind of story. Shadowrun, by default, starts you just after this stage of the streets, where you've hit a point that you can be counted on to succeed at things that not just anybody can do.
Rules Possibilities
While my advice is to reconsider the type of game you want to play, I can offer you a potential solution to your problem. Change the target number of hits from 5 to 4 and adjust thresholds accordingly: Very Easy: 1, Easy: 2, Low Moderate: 3, High Moderate: 4, Difficult: 5, Very Difficult: 6+. This will have some unintended side effects when dealing with net hits, but I believe most of that will involve damage, so Condition Monitors would probably have to be increased by 1/3rd as well, while changing damage penalties from ever 3 boxes to every 4. This should give you the nuance you need while staying mostly internally balanced.
QUOTE
What adverse effects could people think of on the game.
Extended tests for sure. (raise TN by 25% I'd think... also change from -1 to -2 per roll).
Extended tests for sure. (raise TN by 25% I'd think... also change from -1 to -2 per roll).
Was this a response to show he was planning on addressing the "more critical successes" issue?
If so, it isn't an adequate solution. First, critical successes are possible on more than extended tests, so you would have to change the threshold on success tests as well. Second, changing the threshold would drastically change the balance of net hits, glitches, and critical successes for all but the magic dice pool number (where the chance is equal for skill x1, threshold 1 and skillx2, threshold 2).
Third, you are also changing the comparative value on skills for opposed tests. Take a basic unarmed melee combat. Unarmed 4 v. Unarmed 2 used to be a 2 dice advantage, but in skill x2, it's a 4 dice advantage. The danger is overemphasizing the value of having a skill advantage, which encourages players to strive for high skills at the expense of low attributes.
Now, I'm not claiming the change is game breaking, I'm just trying to point out potential negative effects so the original poster can decide if that's the change he wants to use.
I am going to have to agree with Zero and Max, Kerenshara, and Neraph.
Falconer, it seems like you need to decide what you really want to be going on? If it is that you want a street level game where the players are going to struggle, then you are going to have to make them have low skills and average attributes and they will fail often. But if you are trying to have them struggle when trying to rob a convince store, can you really expect them not to fail often at skill checks?
You get a bunch of low skill people doing a fire fight in an alley and it will be miss after miss, until lucky shot, someone spends all there time aiming, or someone just empties an entire clip in 2 seconds with their eyes closed. (That would be edge, consecutive rounds aiming, and wide burst).
Truthfully people might just be getting caught up on your street-level comment, and not on your point about making skills matter more.
Personally, I don't think your system will work out. It works fine for melee combat and social skills. But magic, matrix, and ranged combat aren't going to work out. Also you aren't just making skills more important, you totally changing the values of EVERYTHING in chargen. Just an example, when I buiild a character I usually pick an arctype I want to be, come up with a strange twist for some RP flavor, and then try to work out my BP to make them good to great at what they do and decent a 1 or 2 other things (rigger with some medical skills, mage with social, street sam with some mechanical apttitude).
If I were in your game and you explained that system, I would show up with a character with a human with maybe 90 points in attributes, 7 edge, maybe 15BP of negative qualities, maybe 20BP of gear, and the rest in skills. With your system I would be a good at social, combat with almost any weapon, stealth, and the luckiest freak on the planet..... heck I might even get Lucky just to totally ruin the game.
If you are going to double the effect of skills the BP cost of skills needs to go up. Maybe not 100% but at least 50%. If you really want skills to mean more, just lower the amount of BP your players can put into attributes, or make more limits on their attributes. Doubling the effect of skills is going to change things more than you expect. If a butterfly flaps its wings in Africa.....
Falconer, it seems like you need to decide what you really want to be going on? If it is that you want a street level game where the players are going to struggle, then you are going to have to make them have low skills and average attributes and they will fail often. But if you are trying to have them struggle when trying to rob a convince store, can you really expect them not to fail often at skill checks?
You get a bunch of low skill people doing a fire fight in an alley and it will be miss after miss, until lucky shot, someone spends all there time aiming, or someone just empties an entire clip in 2 seconds with their eyes closed. (That would be edge, consecutive rounds aiming, and wide burst).
Truthfully people might just be getting caught up on your street-level comment, and not on your point about making skills matter more.
Personally, I don't think your system will work out. It works fine for melee combat and social skills. But magic, matrix, and ranged combat aren't going to work out. Also you aren't just making skills more important, you totally changing the values of EVERYTHING in chargen. Just an example, when I buiild a character I usually pick an arctype I want to be, come up with a strange twist for some RP flavor, and then try to work out my BP to make them good to great at what they do and decent a 1 or 2 other things (rigger with some medical skills, mage with social, street sam with some mechanical apttitude).
If I were in your game and you explained that system, I would show up with a character with a human with maybe 90 points in attributes, 7 edge, maybe 15BP of negative qualities, maybe 20BP of gear, and the rest in skills. With your system I would be a good at social, combat with almost any weapon, stealth, and the luckiest freak on the planet..... heck I might even get Lucky just to totally ruin the game.
If you are going to double the effect of skills the BP cost of skills needs to go up. Maybe not 100% but at least 50%. If you really want skills to mean more, just lower the amount of BP your players can put into attributes, or make more limits on their attributes. Doubling the effect of skills is going to change things more than you expect. If a butterfly flaps its wings in Africa.....
I'd consider dropping the TN to 4. Heck I think it was a screw up making the TN 5 in the main system. Low skill, average attribute should have a decent chance of success in a game for normal tasks. It also helps show the difference in dice pool level at smaller increments.
Combine this with a cap on success of x2 skill and you will start seeing skills matter more since with a TN of 4 a 5 attribute and 1 skill character can expect to see 3 successes routinely.
Combine this with a cap on success of x2 skill and you will start seeing skills matter more since with a TN of 4 a 5 attribute and 1 skill character can expect to see 3 successes routinely.
Zormal referred to Frank's house rules - not only is the cost halved, but they cap out at 9 (IIRC), although characters are still limited to 6 at char-gen. If you absolutely have to "fix" the skill rules, this is the best house rule I have seen. It addresses skills being less cost-effective by lowering their costs. It also addresses two of the problems with skills of 1 to 6, first being characters starting out at the hard cap, and second being that 1 to 6 really is not enough to represent the range of skill from beginner to expert. And because skills can go higher, they are more of a factor compared to dice pool modifiers.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 18 2009, 07:00 PM)
It also addresses two of the problems with skills of 1 to 6, first being characters starting out at the hard cap, and second being that 1 to 6 really is not enough to represent the range of skill from beginner to expert. And because skills can go higher, they are more of a factor compared to dice pool modifiers.
I know I've suggested raising the "after chargen" limit to 12, effectively doubling the range from incompetent to grand master.
One I'm aiming this at a lot of people...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. I'm not looking for advice against except as an exploration for what breaks. I'm quite familiar w/ the rules and pools and such. (I think I caught many of the things which could be troublesome). I'm asking what you think systemic effects on such a system would be. I've never seen someone suggest just doubling the effect of skills, though I've seen and played with the other house rule options.
Two: I've seen Trollman's house rules and quite frankly I don't care for much of any of Frank's stuff. I especially don't care about BP's as those reflect one of the absolute worst char gen systems known to game theory. (lack of scaling costs) The only thing which makes it worse is the authors realized their error and put scaling costs on character karma improvement! Which then penalizes people who don't min/max coming out of chargen too much. And really leads to the problems in the end of people coming out of chargen w/ a strong forte and nowhere to really improve it much, and the only real direction to go after chargen being better equipment and broadened skillset.
On opposed rolls it doesn't bloody matter. If I roll 6 dice vs. 6 dice... it's not functionally much different than rolling 9 dice vs. 9 dice. Outside the statistical distribution and larger potential variance within the standard deviation. If the ratio of the pools is kept within reason... things don't change much.
On fixed rolls... yes, then I said it in the OP... need to look ta raising threshholds to compensate for larger pools. EG: threshholds go up.. IT"S A WASH. Yes they have more dice, but they also roll against a higher number to start... beginner is still a beginner.
A huge difference here though is glitches. Average person w/ Average professional skill is going to have an ungodly number of glitches you realize. The pools are just too small... Similarly, it almost never happens w/ a larger pool.
Neraph: you illustrate part of the problem w/o realizing it. You're making up for lack of skill w/ equipment and other bonuses.
At the end of the day, the contribution from skill to larger dice pools is normally only about 25%. Attributes are easier to pump up higher, and then you get a panoply of equipment mods and dice pool mods like specialization.
What is the proper porportion of the pool which should come from skill?
I'd say 25% attributes, 50% skill, 25% equipment should be a reasonable target. Why... attributes are general, and pumping them works best if their effect is broad but weak. Skills are specific to tasks and of limited scope, buying them should have more effect. Equipment is nice, but normally is ONLY a matter of money.
I also believe specializations are too powerful for their cost right now. It's absolutely silly that for 6 karma you effectively can have 3 ranks w/ a chosen application. Especially, when there's almost no reason ever not to use the non-specialized form.
EG: unarmed combat (martial arts)... okay just when doesn't the +2 apply... a specific martial art makes sense... but even then... all attack tests all defense tests? Maybe if they actually spent 5BP for a MA quality.
Karenshara: I forgot a very important two words in there.
1 hit per rank isn't enough... 2 is too much when dealing w/ small pools.
See example given. By the time I get to 3 ranks in a skill 6 hits is enough to handle pretty much any dice pool up to 15 dice reliably rarely if ever losing hits. (especially if edge gets involved).
Fastball:
That's exactly the point! Someone w/ 1 rank barely trained in unarmed, vs. a 3 rank drilled professional. 2 dice is a mere trifle difference. 4 is much more apt... and yes that deemphasis of the attribute in the mix is intentional.
I also disagree w/ the assertion the game runs really well at high levels and isn't designed for low levels. I find things often times break down at higher levels too... Especially when you get assymetric specializations. Lets play rock paper scissors w/ a large helping of who goes first. Street sam goes first equals mage full of bullet holes... mage goes first == street sam w/ mind of mush. The moves are such high probability that it's a real surprise when they don't work.
Trillonen: look at the skill chart... 3 ranks in a skill IS A PROFESSIONAL. Average skill + Professional level training... == inadequate to most tasks.
I make an explicit point... by changing skills... a character w/ 3attr, 3skill is now at 9 dice before equipment. By no means exceptional (compared to the 20+ pools). But far less likely to glitch every time he isn't looking, and with a lot of room to grow.
Here's a basic experiment...
What do you think should be the target disparity between a starting novice dice pool and an ending pool?
Right now I see that as floating between 6 and 20+. I think the system would work better if it was more like 9-30 w/ more emphasis on the narrow karma spent on skills. (much more gradual, and much less jarring than sudden power boosts due to sudden changes in equipment).
Breaking skills up 1-12 is definately a different way to view things though I hadn't considered, Problem I see is that in a graduated cost system like karma it's prohibitively expensive as now you've got the cost increasing over 12 steps.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. I'm not looking for advice against except as an exploration for what breaks. I'm quite familiar w/ the rules and pools and such. (I think I caught many of the things which could be troublesome). I'm asking what you think systemic effects on such a system would be. I've never seen someone suggest just doubling the effect of skills, though I've seen and played with the other house rule options.
Two: I've seen Trollman's house rules and quite frankly I don't care for much of any of Frank's stuff. I especially don't care about BP's as those reflect one of the absolute worst char gen systems known to game theory. (lack of scaling costs) The only thing which makes it worse is the authors realized their error and put scaling costs on character karma improvement! Which then penalizes people who don't min/max coming out of chargen too much. And really leads to the problems in the end of people coming out of chargen w/ a strong forte and nowhere to really improve it much, and the only real direction to go after chargen being better equipment and broadened skillset.
On opposed rolls it doesn't bloody matter. If I roll 6 dice vs. 6 dice... it's not functionally much different than rolling 9 dice vs. 9 dice. Outside the statistical distribution and larger potential variance within the standard deviation. If the ratio of the pools is kept within reason... things don't change much.
On fixed rolls... yes, then I said it in the OP... need to look ta raising threshholds to compensate for larger pools. EG: threshholds go up.. IT"S A WASH. Yes they have more dice, but they also roll against a higher number to start... beginner is still a beginner.
A huge difference here though is glitches. Average person w/ Average professional skill is going to have an ungodly number of glitches you realize. The pools are just too small... Similarly, it almost never happens w/ a larger pool.
Neraph: you illustrate part of the problem w/o realizing it. You're making up for lack of skill w/ equipment and other bonuses.
At the end of the day, the contribution from skill to larger dice pools is normally only about 25%. Attributes are easier to pump up higher, and then you get a panoply of equipment mods and dice pool mods like specialization.
What is the proper porportion of the pool which should come from skill?
I'd say 25% attributes, 50% skill, 25% equipment should be a reasonable target. Why... attributes are general, and pumping them works best if their effect is broad but weak. Skills are specific to tasks and of limited scope, buying them should have more effect. Equipment is nice, but normally is ONLY a matter of money.
I also believe specializations are too powerful for their cost right now. It's absolutely silly that for 6 karma you effectively can have 3 ranks w/ a chosen application. Especially, when there's almost no reason ever not to use the non-specialized form.
EG: unarmed combat (martial arts)... okay just when doesn't the +2 apply... a specific martial art makes sense... but even then... all attack tests all defense tests? Maybe if they actually spent 5BP for a MA quality.
Karenshara: I forgot a very important two words in there.
1 hit per rank isn't enough... 2 is too much when dealing w/ small pools.
See example given. By the time I get to 3 ranks in a skill 6 hits is enough to handle pretty much any dice pool up to 15 dice reliably rarely if ever losing hits. (especially if edge gets involved).
Fastball:
That's exactly the point! Someone w/ 1 rank barely trained in unarmed, vs. a 3 rank drilled professional. 2 dice is a mere trifle difference. 4 is much more apt... and yes that deemphasis of the attribute in the mix is intentional.
I also disagree w/ the assertion the game runs really well at high levels and isn't designed for low levels. I find things often times break down at higher levels too... Especially when you get assymetric specializations. Lets play rock paper scissors w/ a large helping of who goes first. Street sam goes first equals mage full of bullet holes... mage goes first == street sam w/ mind of mush. The moves are such high probability that it's a real surprise when they don't work.
Trillonen: look at the skill chart... 3 ranks in a skill IS A PROFESSIONAL. Average skill + Professional level training... == inadequate to most tasks.
I make an explicit point... by changing skills... a character w/ 3attr, 3skill is now at 9 dice before equipment. By no means exceptional (compared to the 20+ pools). But far less likely to glitch every time he isn't looking, and with a lot of room to grow.
Here's a basic experiment...
What do you think should be the target disparity between a starting novice dice pool and an ending pool?
Right now I see that as floating between 6 and 20+. I think the system would work better if it was more like 9-30 w/ more emphasis on the narrow karma spent on skills. (much more gradual, and much less jarring than sudden power boosts due to sudden changes in equipment).
Breaking skills up 1-12 is definately a different way to view things though I hadn't considered, Problem I see is that in a graduated cost system like karma it's prohibitively expensive as now you've got the cost increasing over 12 steps.
So halve the karma costs? Even though it's functionally about the same, I like skills going up to 12 more than I like a skill adding 2 dice per point - mainly because I don't like the narrow range of 1-6 representing skill from beginner to best in the world. Either way, though, you might want to tweak things like reflex recorders, move-by-wire, and improved ability, all of which become more powerful. It's a "wash" if dice pools are equal, but if they are not equal, then a 2 dice advantage (per point of higher skill) is better than a 1 dice advantage.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 19 2009, 01:44 AM)
It's a "wash" if dice pools are equal
Not quite. 6 dice vs. 6 dice is very slightly worse than 9 vs. 9, due to the glitch rules.
Actually it's still a wash. Ignoring the slight weirdness that you're less likely to glitch on 5 dice than on 6 dice.
You're ignoring that either side can glitch. A glitch is more likely to occur, yes. But the glitch could be against the other guy and not against you.
You're ignoring that either side can glitch. A glitch is more likely to occur, yes. But the glitch could be against the other guy and not against you.
Hmm...
Another thought here on expanding to 12 dice. (either from double ranks, or just buying 1-12, or even 1-9 if you think 12 is too much; that's very much the same thing though, excepting karmic costs).
Skill mods... that uncaps them quite a bit. I'm not certain that's all that good. (18 dice from skill and mods alone)
One thing I can see, moving certain select items from the category of dice pool mods... to the realm of skill mod. (specialization I can see as the biggest single one to move to this category). Would mean that people couldn't specialize until 2/12 ranks (beginner).. and wouldn't get full benefits of specialization until they were 4/12 (novice) which seems just about right. Thoughts?
I'm also trying to think of the consequences to something like the gunslinger adept w/ firearms group 4 (well 8 if double)... and enhanced ability 2 in pistols. It doesn't seem too debilitating... but thoughts?
Another idea for reducing attribute's effect on the dice pool. Half the dice from attributes. To make up for more dice from skills. This idea would seem to work best w/ skill ranks going from 1-9 or 10 though. Though doubling one and halving the other seems a bit too draconian.
Also, I'm curious on others thoughts about streamlining edge and spending edge, by always adding a few edge dice to every roll. (you have 8 dice... you have an edge of 5... add 2 colored dice and one normal one... the colored ones get the rule of six). That was basically an idea I had for making PC's pools slightly larger, and glitches less likely on exceptionally small pools.
Another thought here on expanding to 12 dice. (either from double ranks, or just buying 1-12, or even 1-9 if you think 12 is too much; that's very much the same thing though, excepting karmic costs).
Skill mods... that uncaps them quite a bit. I'm not certain that's all that good. (18 dice from skill and mods alone)
One thing I can see, moving certain select items from the category of dice pool mods... to the realm of skill mod. (specialization I can see as the biggest single one to move to this category). Would mean that people couldn't specialize until 2/12 ranks (beginner).. and wouldn't get full benefits of specialization until they were 4/12 (novice) which seems just about right. Thoughts?
I'm also trying to think of the consequences to something like the gunslinger adept w/ firearms group 4 (well 8 if double)... and enhanced ability 2 in pistols. It doesn't seem too debilitating... but thoughts?
Another idea for reducing attribute's effect on the dice pool. Half the dice from attributes. To make up for more dice from skills. This idea would seem to work best w/ skill ranks going from 1-9 or 10 though. Though doubling one and halving the other seems a bit too draconian.
Also, I'm curious on others thoughts about streamlining edge and spending edge, by always adding a few edge dice to every roll. (you have 8 dice... you have an edge of 5... add 2 colored dice and one normal one... the colored ones get the rule of six). That was basically an idea I had for making PC's pools slightly larger, and glitches less likely on exceptionally small pools.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.