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Mäx
post Jul 18 2009, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Jul 18 2009, 10:51 PM) *
The more relevant one is that Gymnastics doesn't have any specialisations that apply (unless you accept Tumbling as applying which I wouldn't, but some might). So without a specialisation, you end up paying more for the same result with Gymnastics.

But you can get a benefit from Sythacardium 3(costing mere 6BP), for dodge you would have to with move-by-wire.
So you can easily get more dice for gymnastic then for dodge and you get a bonus for all other athletics kills too.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 19 2009, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Jul 18 2009, 12:51 PM) *
For ranged combat, Gymnastics and Dodge are roughly equivalent with only some circumstance specific differences, namely that some GMs will limit the Gymnastic Dodge if there isn't lots of space, based on it being "flipping, rolling and cartwheeling out of danger". That's only some GMs though. The more relevant one is that Gymnastics doesn't have any specialisations that apply (unless you accept Tumbling as applying which I wouldn't, but some might). So without a specialisation, you end up paying more for the same result with Gymnastics.

So for ranged combat, they are similar. Plus Gymnastics is good for other things too.

But in melee, you don't get to use Gymnastics unless you take a complex action and go on Full Defense, whereas with Dodge, you can. Similarly, if you are on Full Defense, then you only get to add Gymnastics once, whereas Dodge you can add twice. This is an advantage to Dodge, quite clearly. Now Neraph makes the valid point that you can use weapons to parry attacks in place of both Dodge and Gymnastics. So in the case of, say, his snap-blade wielder, Dodge would be irrelevant in Melee, and it's only ranged combat you need to worry about. In which case, Neraph says you might as well get Gymnastics for the side-benefits. I disagree (though see his point) on the grounds that I like the cheap two extra dice I can get from specialisation and because my game tends to involve people getting jumped in bars, etc. where they don't have weapons at the ready. Neraph is also talking specifically about the case of Melee-focused characters, which is sort of reasonable as if you're not melee-focused, then even if you do have Dodge or Gymnastics, you'll usually get beaten badly by anyone who is melee focused (and why would they attack that way if they weren't). But if you're not a melee focused character and you still think there's a chance that you'll end up in Melee, then Dodge is better than Gymnastics. At least unless there's a handy ledge you can jump onto and run away! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's my take on it anyway, which I think is fair.

K.


Hey... That makes sense to me, and was what I was thinking myself... I tend to prefer Dodge over Gymnastics almost always... But that is just me I guess...

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Neraph
post Jul 19 2009, 04:35 AM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Jul 18 2009, 12:13 PM) *
Heh! Pixies with snap-blades! It would be like a mayfly with teeth! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But I think we'd both gone beyond talking about pixies which, lets face it, should never have any intent to get into melee!

Or should they.... *goes off to contemplate a pixie physical adept*.

Peace,

Khadim. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ Spoiler ]


Note that his damage is actually a little low, due to a miscalculation on the Energy Aura. I'll see if I can fix it.

EDIT: Here's the fixed numbers.
1/2 Str = 5 (Base str 3, +1 Adept ability, +3 armor, +2 from Satyr legs = 9 str)
+3 Bone Density
+5 Critical Strike
+6 Assumed hits on Energy Aura test
+2 Spikes
+1 Thorns
+2 Martial Arts
Total = (IIRC, you round str up, if not, subtract one point) DV 24, -1/2 AP. On a pixie.
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Ragewind
post Jul 19 2009, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 18 2009, 11:35 PM) *
[ Spoiler ]


Note that his damage is actually a little low, due to a miscalculation on the Energy Aura. I'll see if I can fix it.

EDIT: Here's the fixed numbers.
1/2 Str = 5 (Base str 3, +1 Adept ability, +3 armor, +2 from Satyr legs = 9 str)
+3 Bone Density
+5 Critical Strike
+6 Assumed hits on Energy Aura test
+2 Spikes
+1 Thorns
+2 Martial Arts
Total = (IIRC, you round str up, if not, subtract one point) DV 24, -1/2 AP. On a pixie.



Ah yes I remember that old post, the number were slightly off but not enough to matter. IIRC no one liked Super-Speed ,who was a obvious take on Sonic the Hedgehog, which is strange since he could one shot a great dragon.
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MYST1C
post Jul 20 2009, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jul 18 2009, 01:40 PM) *
ACHE: Arcology Community Housing Enclave, if memory serves me
Close one: Arcology Commercial and Housing Enclave - there's a public mall in it.
Sixth World Wiki entry.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 20 2009, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Jul 19 2009, 07:16 AM) *
Ah yes I remember that old post, the number were slightly off but not enough to matter. IIRC no one liked Super-Speed ,who was a obvious take on Sonic the Hedgehog, which is strange since he could one shot a great dragon.

show me.
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knasser
post Jul 20 2009, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 18 2009, 09:04 PM) *
But you can get a benefit from Sythacardium 3(costing mere 6BP), for dodge you would have to with move-by-wire.
So you can easily get more dice for gymnastic then for dodge and you get a bonus for all other athletics kills too.


Hmmmm. Very good catch. Does Gymnastics count as an "Athletics Test" when used for dodging? I reckon it's an oversight that it does, but by RAW I'd say a reasonably clear 'yes'.

Okay, extra argument for Gymnastics in the right circumstances, then.

@Neraph: I can't believe how hard-hitting that pixie is. It would need higher Force foci however. Force 1 foci would cap the hits too low. Unless you're saying you used Edge to get extra hits beyond the Force of the spell. Technically allowable by the rules but frequently houseruled and a bad idea in play, anyway. Still scary, though.
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Neraph
post Jul 21 2009, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Jul 20 2009, 01:59 PM) *
Hmmmm. Very good catch. Does Gymnastics count as an "Athletics Test" when used for dodging? I reckon it's an oversight that it does, but by RAW I'd say a reasonably clear 'yes'.

Okay, extra argument for Gymnastics in the right circumstances, then.

@Neraph: I can't believe how hard-hitting that pixie is. It would need higher Force foci however. Force 1 foci would cap the hits too low. Unless you're saying you used Edge to get extra hits beyond the Force of the spell. Technically allowable by the rules but frequently houseruled and a bad idea in play, anyway. Still scary, though.

Yes, you Edge the spellcasting tests, but only if you want to use those Foci. You could just as easily sustain them yourself (taking some Psych would help), or pass some off to a spirit, and your Unarmed Skill is high enough to even work with that option.

As a sidenote, you can do the same setup with, say, a troll, or better yet, a were-bear, adding on about another 5P. You'd have to cut points somewhere else though. Also, don't forget that you can get another point from Martial Arts in game.
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Ragewind
post Jul 22 2009, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 21 2009, 12:04 PM) *
Yes, you Edge the spellcasting tests, but only if you want to use those Foci. You could just as easily sustain them yourself (taking some Psych would help), or pass some off to a spirit, and your Unarmed Skill is high enough to even work with that option.

As a sidenote, you can do the same setup with, say, a troll, or better yet, a were-bear, adding on about another 5P. You'd have to cut points somewhere else though. Also, don't forget that you can get another point from Martial Arts in game.



Yes but if you make it something other than a Pixie, the build losses a lot of its survivability. The neat thing about my build is that people take such a large penalty to even notice Super Speed while he is rearranging your face. Combine that with the armor tough enough to take some AOE damage and how fast the character can move and you can pretty much handle anything.

Also yes, I used Edge to stuff some some higher hits into the foci.
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Cardul
post Jul 22 2009, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Jul 18 2009, 01:13 PM) *
Heh! Pixies with snap-blades! It would be like a mayfly with teeth! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But I think we'd both gone beyond talking about pixies which, lets face it, should never have any intent to get into melee!

Or should they.... *goes off to contemplate a pixie physical adept*.

Peace,

Khadim. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



I made one a while back to help a friend out...
Pixie Physical Adept, with kick(to compensate for her short reach) of like 7P out of chargen...
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Mäx
post Jul 22 2009, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Jul 22 2009, 04:31 AM) *
The neat thing about my build is that people take such a large penalty to even notice Super Speed while he is rearranging your face.

I don't think that any kind of perspection roll is needed to notice someone who's in melee combat with you.
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Ragewind
post Jul 22 2009, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 22 2009, 04:56 AM) *
I don't think that any kind of perspection roll is needed to notice someone who's in melee combat with you.


O Rly? Sadly nothing in the game states "You auto notice anything fighting with you", if you were to try and notice the 10 foot invisible troll beating on you...you still need to make a perception test. In fact with a typical -19 to your roll you have no choice but to Long Shot it to beat the characters stealth. Now if the Pixie is fighting you obviously it cannot be using stealth...but you still are required to make a long shot roll to even see the pixie (assuming -19 brings your total to 0 or below). Otherwise you follow the rules for Blind Fighting. Which, IIRC, will put you at a -12 to target the pixie. -6 for Blind and -6 for small target..hmm does a pixie get the -6 for small target? Either way the -6 is enough to make most NPC's long shot it anyway.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 22 2009, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Jul 22 2009, 10:45 AM) *
O Rly? Sadly nothing in the game states "You auto notice anything fighting with you", if you were to try and notice the 10 foot invisible troll beating on you...you still need to make a perception test. In fact with a typical -19 to your roll you have no choice but to Long Shot it to beat the characters stealth. Now if the Pixie is fighting you obviously it cannot be using stealth...but you still are required to make a long shot roll to even see the pixie (assuming -19 brings your total to 0 or below). Otherwise you follow the rules for Blind Fighting. Which, IIRC, will put you at a -12 to target the pixie. -6 for Blind and -6 for small target..hmm does a pixie get the -6 for small target? Either way the -6 is enough to make most NPC's long shot it anyway.



I do believe that the rule is that you do not have to roll perception for something that is obvious... someone beating on you is pretty obvious in my opinion...
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Ragewind
post Jul 22 2009, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 22 2009, 02:26 PM) *
I do believe that the rule is that you do not have to roll perception for something that is obvious... someone beating on you is pretty obvious in my opinion...


Perception test to notice a pixie busting your friends skull open

Normal Threshold = 2 (possibly 1)

Modifiers
Perceiver is distracted -2
Concealment -6
Cheamelon Suit -4
Mini Target target -4
Spell - 6
(obviously not including stealth, so it is not a opposed test)

You perception skill + Bonus = (well say 12)
with Modifiers -10

Meaning you need to long shot the test, while something is wrong may be immediately obvious when your teammates head explodes, unless you can see it you have no clue whats going on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

EDIT: Of course I think you assume you would survive the initial surprise assault from Superspeed, No...I don't think you will. Lets assume I roll average (without edge) meaning you are going to take a 35P shot at -Half Impact.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 23 2009, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Jul 22 2009, 01:01 PM) *
Perception test to notice a pixie busting your friends skull open

Normal Threshold = 2 (possibly 1)

Modifiers
Perceiver is distracted -2
Concealment -6
Cheamelon Suit -4
Mini Target target -4
Spell - 6
(obviously not including stealth, so it is not a opposed test)

You perception skill + Bonus = (well say 12)
with Modifiers -10

Meaning you need to long shot the test, while something is wrong may be immediately obvious when your teammates head explodes, unless you can see it you have no clue whats going on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

EDIT: Of course I think you assume you would survive the initial surprise assault from Superspeed, No...I don't think you will. Lets assume I roll average (without edge) meaning you are going to take a 35P shot at -Half Impact.


Again, I will ask you why? For something obvious... and combat IS Obvious (and this interpretation is supported by RAW), why are you making your runners make a perception roll against something that is in active combat (Melee isn't it?) with them? Seems kind of like a dick move to me... No Offense, but that is what it sounds like to me...

And for the record... a simple implanted radar system will eliminate the modifiers for Spell, Size, Chameleon Suit, and concealment right off the top... and I would argue about the distraction modifier as well for combat...

And for the next point (your assumption that I would not see your pixie coming)... You are probably going to be detected coming in on my current character's position... don't assume that the "invincible and invisible" pixie is exactly that... it may not be... and chances are extremely good my current character will avoid the attack completely, possibly even beating you on your intitative and doing damage to him before he does damage to my character (of course you could dodge as well, but then nobody hurts anyone)... and all this without being a massively tweaked character, with average dice pools below 15 (all my combat skills fall between 10 -14 dice)

But hey, that is just me...
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toturi
post Jul 23 2009, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 23 2009, 08:16 AM) *
Again, I will ask you why? For something obvious... and combat IS Obvious (and this interpretation is supported by RAW), why are you making your runners make a perception roll against something that is in active combat (Melee isn't it?) with them? Seems kind of like a dick move to me... No Offense, but that is what it sounds like to me...
There is a difference between what is obvious and what is immediately noticeable. To put into mechanics terms - what requires a Threshold 1 Perception test and what doesn't need a Perception test at all. If combat is "obvious", then it requires the Perception test.
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Ragewind
post Jul 23 2009, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jul 22 2009, 09:20 PM) *
There is a difference between what is obvious and what is immediately noticeable. To put into mechanics terms - what requires a Threshold 1 Perception test and what doesn't need a Perception test at all. If combat is "obvious", then it requires the Perception test.


Aye exactly,

Yup Radar will get him, as will a few other things like Ultra Sonic
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Neraph
post Jul 23 2009, 04:23 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 22 2009, 01:26 PM) *
I do believe that the rule is that you do not have to roll perception for something that is obvious... someone beating on you is pretty obvious in my opinion...

In that case you automatically see a person under Invisibility, so long as they attack you. That's silly.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 23 2009, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 22 2009, 10:23 PM) *
In that case you automatically see a person under Invisibility, so long as they attack you. That's silly.


Assuming that you have the right equipment, you see him automatically anyway... But I do take your point...

However, it seems to me that for the vast majority of circumstances... if you are in melee combat with an individual, you will not have to make perception tests to spot them... the magical invisibility being a possible exception to this...

Thanks Toturi for the Mechanical Breakdown...
Thanks Neraph for your patience...
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Neraph
post Jul 23 2009, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 23 2009, 09:06 AM) *
Assuming that you have the right equipment, you see him automatically anyway... But I do take your point...

However, it seems to me that for the vast majority of circumstances... if you are in melee combat with an individual, you will not have to make perception tests to spot them... the magical invisibility being a possible exception to this...

Thanks Toturi for the Mechanical Breakdown...
Thanks Neraph for your patience...

Well, Concealment is a magical power. So why does the spell get the benefit, but not the innate ability of a supernatural being?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 23 2009, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 23 2009, 09:28 AM) *
Well, Concealment is a magical power. So why does the spell get the benefit, but not the innate ability of a supernatural being?



I said the spell MAY get the benefit... Concealment might as well... however, It can be interpreted that actively breaking your concealment (used for hiding) breaks the Concealment provided by the spirit... This is how it is done in our games anyway (Sure, it is a house rule, but makes a lot of sense)... but honestly, there are so many ways to break the Spell/Spirit power that it is generally useless anyway... and as I said, a Simple Radar system can negate it...

But that is getting into semantics, and does nothing for the discussion...

Keep the Faith...
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