Greetings and Salutations!

I just started my first game of Shadowrun two weeks ago (we've had two sessions so far), and it seems very fun. I did however have some questions.

1. I'm playing a pixie shaman (according to the gm, if we bought the book, we could play it. And well, pixies are just so...cute...). I had the help of an experienced shadowrunner in building the character, but I was wondering if there was anything in particular I should have remembered to do special.

2. My concealment power = invisibilty? I wasn't sure when I read the power exactly how it's hiding me, do they just get negatives on their perception pools to see me? If I have concealment on, but am flying around in peoples faces, are they going to see me, or do they have to make a perception first? It hadn't come up much, since I've usually been flying near the ceiling, and no one looks up. Also, I bought a power focus, which if I'm reading the rules, says it adds its bonus to any test involving magic, and concealment says it's based off my magic, do those dice add to it?

3. How does creating unique enchantments work for most people? My gm is doing it as a side-story miniquest with me going on an metaplanar quest, but I was wondering if there was any normal way of doing unique enchantments, or are they from their very nature, well, unique?

4. This is more a fluffy question, but well...in my absorption of the books I have read (The core book, magic book, companion, the rigger's augmentation book, and the hacker's matrix (?) book) I've come across this mention of Arcology. Now, I know from an outside point of view what an arcology is, but the book only mentions that one of the corps learned from it's failed arcology experiment, and one of the chapter starts is from the view of a girl trying to leave an arcology (but no mention of why, who's arcology it is, etc). What is with this Arcology? I asked the gm, and he thought I was insane. I also asked the street samurai (the person who helped me build my character), and he doesn't know either. Please tell me I'm not insane!

I think that's all of my questions for right now. I thank you, and hope to chat with all of you in the future.

RebekahWSD

Hi Rebekah, and firstly, welcome to Dumpshock!

I'll try my best with your questions, but in some cases you should check with your GM as each GM is their own little island of interpretation.



Depends what you want to do with your pixie. That's a useless answer but it's the only correct one. But in the interests of being useful here's a few ideas:
Have you done everything you can to ensure you don't get swatted like the pretty little mayfly that you are? E.g. good ranks in Dodge, Perception, Agility? If a magician, have you considered the Deflection spell? Also, unless you have Body 1, then you can still wear Armour Clothing. Have you considered buying some with the Ruthenium Polymer modification from Arsenal (pg. 50). This will make you even harder to spot, plus you'll look so dinky in your little armour clothing infiltration outfit.



Concealment is more mystical than mere invisibility. It can cloud people's minds, if your GM chooses to interpret it that way. It was originally a spirit power so it could be all sorts of natural effects from convenient mists to strangely convenient shadows to actual changes in your appearance. As a pixie, I like to picture it as something very fey. They see you, but they see an Art Deco lamp, they hear your chittering wings or laughter but it's just a large cicada. If you've seen Pan's Labyrinth, think of how the girl walks right past the fawn at first until he suddenly moves, or the way he retreats into the shadows. Or better, how the big insect unfolds to become the little faerie. Your GM will have his or her own take on it, but that's how I see it.

In game terms, its less ambiguous. Concealment is subtracting dice from the victim's Perception dice pool. If your pool is reduced to nothing, then you really can't see what's right in front of you. But keep an eye out for dice pool modifiers. If you're doing something obvious, then a GM could grant a dice pool bonus to the target. Though likewise, you can earn yourself some of your own bonus dice pool by behaving more sensibly. Oh wait - pixie. You don't normally need to make a perception roll to see the obvious, so you should still try and actually hide. A GM would be within their rights to say that if you were mooning a security guard right in front of his face (bad pixie!), then they'd see you because you weren't actually trying to conceal yourself, same way as if you paint yourself orange and run screaming through the compound, you're not actually making an Infiltration roll. But if your magic rating is high enough, you can more or less "hide in plain sight", yes.

With regard to the Power Focus, no, by RAW, it will not help you with Concealment. It only adds its rating to tests involving your Magic rating, not actually boosts the Magic rating itself. There have been a few cases along the same principle which were ruled out by devs on the same lines. You could buy your GM some chocolates though - they might let you get away with it.

Note that you might want to pick up the Extended Masking power some day in order to help hide that focus. Also, you may run afoul of Wards, which would block active foci.



Your GM is handling it aright. Some GM's demand special quests just for obtaining the components to any old foci your character tries to create. For unique items it is entirely appropriate. And anyway, it's fun and you get karma, so say thank you to your nice GM.



An arcology, as you've probably read, is an entire enclosed community, traditionally pyramid-shaped. There are two notable ones in Shadowrun cannon. One is the Aztechnology pyramid in Seattle. Runs in there are a good way to get yourself killed double-time. The second and more famous (and undoubtedly what is referred to as the "failed experiment" and probably what was referred to in the Unwired opening fluff), is the Renraku Arcology. This was one of their flagship projects, located in Downtown Seattle. Larger even than the Aztechnology pyramid. It went into shutdown - nothing getting in, nothing getting out - during the Reraku:Shutdown adventure arc. This was a result of Deus breaking free. I don't want to go too much into this because I (a) don't know all the details and (b) your GM might have a different take on things (in my game, it's still a Renraku installation). In cannon, it is now known as the ACHE (Something Community Housing Something), owned by Seattle City Council and the most boring place on Earth to live.

Hope all that's useful,

Peace,

Khadim.

ACHE: Arcology Community Housing Enclave, if memory serves me

Awesome! Those are incredibly helpful answers! Gleeeeee

RebekahWSD

While I agree with much of this, there are some things to take note of:
You do not necessarily can't see or percieve anything if you do not have any Perception dice. A really low Intuition person with no Perception skill is not blind afterall. According to SR4, you do manage to Perceive what is "immediately noticeable" even at no Perception dice since you are not called to make a Perception check. It is up to the GM to decide draw the line between "obvious" and "immediately noticeable", this is especially relevant with anyone with Concealment or other Perception dice negative mods.

The key to painting yourself orange and run screaming unnoticed through the compound is to do it steathily as evidenced by the Infiltration or Disguise skills.

Might contain some spoilers if anyone is ever intending to run through the Arcology (If you are playing in '72 ish times this should not be a problem)



Some other things happen, but thats the jist of it. The adventure book Renraku Arcology Shutdown and Brainscan are the ones that go into the Arcology, if you are particularly interested in it.

P.S, is the Aztechnology Pyramid in Seattle an Arcology? I always thought it was the regional headquarters and just held all the supar sekret ebil Aztechnology type experiments.

I'm not sure. I wondered that after I typed it. It's certainly large. And I'm pretty sure I recall references to shops in it. Some on-site living it will certainly have, so I guess it sneaks in as maybe a small to medium arcology. I can't pin-point the reference though - I just have a vague recollection of reading about it as a smaller arcology.

I could well be wrong, though.

K.

1) Automatics is a better weaponskill than almost any other (except Gunnery), since it includes machine pistols, SMGs, and Assault Rifles. It has the best mobile flexibility of all the ranged weapon skills.

Dodge is not as good as Gymnastics, because with gymnastics you can dodge and jump/parkour.

Specialize perception in Aural (sp? audio perception), since things like Ruthenium Polymers, camouflage, and Invisibility wouldn't matter. Also, you'd be more likely to hear the guys coming than waiting for them to turn the corner to notice them. Concealment would still work, however.

2)


There are two different interpretations of this text for your Power Focus. The first is that your Power Focus will not add to your Concealment power, because the text implies an opposed test involving the actual rolling of your Magic stat, which the Concealment power does not do. The second is that, since it does not say "opposed test," but simply "all tests," then the power focus would increase your Concealment power, as the Magic rating is in fact included in the test. I belong to the latter group.

That power focus would also add dice to an Elemental Attack, Elemental Aura (when they hit you), Fear, and a few other powers.

3) Unique Enchantments are completely left up to the GM. The only ones I have met in-game were too D&D-esque for my tastes (a sniper rifle that only did 8P; -1/2 AP [irregardless of successes], but was a 100% lifetap [you dealt 8P to enemy, you gained 8 boxes of HP]; a sword that dealt like 10x dmg to walls, but no damage to anything else.)

Gymnastics is definitely not as good as Dodge in combat (though it is nice when you get pushed off a building).



Note that Gymnastic Dodge is one of the types of Full Defense (SR4A, pg. 160). You only get to use it in place of Dodge during Full Defense, and therefore as a Complex action. You don't get to roll it if you're just making a run of the mill defense roll against a melee attack. Note that in melee, she also only gets to add Gymnastics once. If you go on Full Defense against a Melee attack with Dodge, you are rolling Reaction + (Dodge / Weapon Skill) + Dodge. With Gymnastics, it's just Reaction + Gymnastics. It's definitely not as good.
You can also get a specialisation in Dodge of Ranged or Melee combat which is a cheap way of getting a couple more dice. She should check with her GM on this. It's also come up before here, so I know that some GM's will restrict Gymnastic dodging if there is limited space (though for a pixie, there's always space. ).




These have come up before and (for what it's worth) have been spoken on by devs. Power foci explicitly add their rating to "all tests in which the magician's magic is included." With concealment, the Magic attribute acts as a dice pool modifier, it's not part of the test. A GM may choose to allow it, but it isn't RAW. Sorry.

K.

EDIT: Cleared up explanation of Gymnastic Dodge.

...

Use Gymnastics as a replacement for Dodging ranged attacks, and Parrying for melee. If you have a 4 Gymnastics and 4 melee skill, then that'd be the same as having a 4 Dodge, and more flexible. Not to mention things like 5 BP of Martial Arts and the Two Weapon Style maneuver. That combo greatly surpasses anything that Dodging in melee could handle, mainly by not having to give up your next action.

For example, a character with 4 Rea, a 4 Dodge, and spec'd for melee has a 10 dicepool, without giving up his next action. A character with 4 Rea, 4 Weaponskill, using two weapon style without ambidex has an 11 dicepool, without giving up his next action. Specializing it would get you an extra 4 dice, and you can also add custom grips and reach on top. Getting Offhand Training would negate the -2 penalty for offhanding as well.

If an area is too constricted for Gymnastics Dodge, chances are it's not going to be optimal for normal dodging either. I can also refer you to Jackie Chan movies for examples of Gymnastics Dodging in confined areas.

Wait... you're saying that things that ARE dice pool modifiers AREN'T part of the test? That's like saying ketchup isn't part of eating a hamburger, because it's not the meat or the bun. The modifier is "part," using any definition of "modifier" and "part" that I'm aware of.

And Neraph, I think the argument for Dodge is that Dodge is more versatile than Blades (honestly, who uses clubs?) OR Gymnastics, and it's cheaper than combining the two. To be honest, Blades (or Unarmed) + Gym makes sense for a melee-heavy character, but if you're a caster looking to pick up a skill that you can A. roll against melee attacks AND B. roll against ranged attacks (or twice against melee) if you need to go full defense, Dodge is efficient.

... You lost me.


True, Dodge instead of melee and Gym is more efficient to begin with, but with minimal effort we can replicate the same effect with melee and gym. Pick up two personalized forearm snap-blades, blades at 1 or 2, spec for the arm blades, grab two weapon style, and nab gymnastics at 3 or so.

Gym + Two Weapon also looks cooler. But yes, it does take more working and a better knowledge of the game in order to use it maximally, so unless you want to add that complexity, Dodge is the way to go.

Okay - leaving aside constricted spaces (it's been discussed before and there's no shortage of GMs that will rule out Gymnastic dodges if you don't have the space for "flipping, rolling and cartwheeling" which is explicitly what Gymastic Dodge is described as), it still has disadvantages over Dodge.

I think you've misunderstood the rules.

In your example, of the person with 4 Reaction and 4 Dodge compared with the person with 4 Reaction and 4 Gymnastics, they are the same in some cases, but not in all.

When being shot at, both characters will either roll just Reaction, or Reaction + Skill if spending a complex action to perform a Full Dodge.

In melee without going on Full Defense, both characters must roll one of the following:
Weapon Skill + Reaction (that's called Parrying).
Unarmed Combat + Reaction (called Blocking).
Dodge + Reaction (called Dodging).

Now for melee focused characters that have a good Unarmed Combat skill, then both Dodge and Gymnastics may be redundant.
For a melee focused character that has a good weapon skill and is armed, then both Dodge and Gymnastics may be redundant.
For those who are either caught without their weapon or don't have Weapon or Unarmed Combat skills at an equivalent level, Gymnastics is useless, whilst Dodge retains its effectiveness. If you're a gun fighter, having spent your precious skill points on Dodge for your defensive skill rather than Gymnastics, gives you some measure of protecting yourself when you get jumped.

Now if you're really in trouble in Melee, and you're just trying to survive, then you might go Full Defense for a complex action. In this case, you are rolling one of the following:
Reaction + Weapon Skill + Dodge
Reaction + Unarmed Combat + Dodge
Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
Reaction + Gymnastics

Now plainly, if you don't have Dodge and you're forced to choose the last option, you're coming out significantly behind.

And I'm going to bring up the point about specialities again, because it can be quite significant. There aren't any valid Gymnastic specialisations for dodging, but Dodge offers a choice of Ranged or Melee. That means that the Dodge-based character can spend 2 karma points for two extra dice, no matter what the ranking. The Gymnastics character pays more and can never reach the same heights should people ever want to really focus on dodging.

Gymnastics is a good skill. It's not as good as Dodge when it comes to not getting hit. It is in some circumstances, but not all. When you're jumped in an alley or a punched in a club, you want dodge.

And then add sythacardium 3 for cheap extra 3 dice, get it as second-hand if you short on cash.

Isn't that what gym spec Tumbling is for.

You forgot about the

Reaction + Weaponskill + Weaponskill.

For the character with a weaponskill and has a weapon, dodge will be redundant, in nearly all cases. And dual wielding for two weapon style only makes it more attractive. And in that case, gymnastics will be more flexible (no pun intended - I promise) than simply dodge.

You're no longer arguing that Gymnastics is better than Dodge. You're arguing that Weapon Skill + Gymnastics is better. And also that a 5BP+ Quality plus a further 2BP Quality + Weapon Skill is better than Dodge. To which I'd say it better be! Although it must be said, you can't walk around with a weapon in each hand all the time. You've narrowed in on a particular circumstance (prepared character with a melee-focused build initiating a melee combat on his own terms) and extrapolated it to the whole world.

So if you want to compare a more significant investment of BP / Karma and use of the skill in limited circumstances, by all means do so. But if you're comparing skill with skill, Dodge is still better than Gymnastics. Sorry.

Peace,

K.

Full parry is a form of full defence and is Reaction + Weaponskill + Weaponskill.

Yes. I'm saying dice pool modifiers are not part of the test. In a Hacking scenario, you can have a threshold of the target node's Firewall. That node might get a bonus to its detection roll due to software optimisation, but that only affects the dice that its rolling, not your threshold. I'm not going to touch your burger analogy because we understand what each other are saying already, and also because your analogy has ketchup all over it.

It's come up before. Here's a recent (short) thread on it.

Power Focus adds to anything where you roll Magic (of the magician) + Something. It doesn't affect things where the Magic attribute is a dice pool modifier or a threshold (if the latter exists). It's not actually affecting the Magic attribute. It just offers a bonus for tests you make with it.

Thank you. That's what I thought it was and then when I went back and checked the rules, I looked at the summary chart and it didn't have it, so I went off on one. I've editied my post now.

Apologies,

K.

I'll cede that point.

If you're worried about weapons, just take a couple of Forearm Snap-blades, and call it a day. They aren't visible until you need them.

Heh! Pixies with snap-blades! It would be like a mayfly with teeth! But I think we'd both gone beyond talking about pixies which, lets face it, should never have any intent to get into melee!

Or should they.... *goes off to contemplate a pixie physical adept*.

Peace,

Khadim.

But you cannot parry bullets...

We're talking about melee combat, for ranged you use gymnastics.

I thought it was a comparison between the benefits of Dodge to Gymnastics...
That being the case, Why care about Weapon Skills at all...
Must have missed something...

For ranged combat, Gymnastics and Dodge are roughly equivalent with only some circumstance specific differences, namely that some GMs will limit the Gymnastic Dodge if there isn't lots of space, based on it being "flipping, rolling and cartwheeling out of danger". That's only some GMs though. The more relevant one is that Gymnastics doesn't have any specialisations that apply (unless you accept Tumbling as applying which I wouldn't, but some might). So without a specialisation, you end up paying more for the same result with Gymnastics.

So for ranged combat, they are similar. Plus Gymnastics is good for other things too.

But in melee, you don't get to use Gymnastics unless you take a complex action and go on Full Defense, whereas with Dodge, you can. Similarly, if you are on Full Defense, then you only get to add Gymnastics once, whereas Dodge you can add twice. This is an advantage to Dodge, quite clearly. Now Neraph makes the valid point that you can use weapons to parry attacks in place of both Dodge and Gymnastics. So in the case of, say, his snap-blade wielder, Dodge would be irrelevant in Melee, and it's only ranged combat you need to worry about. In which case, Neraph says you might as well get Gymnastics for the side-benefits. I disagree (though see his point) on the grounds that I like the cheap two extra dice I can get from specialisation and because my game tends to involve people getting jumped in bars, etc. where they don't have weapons at the ready. Neraph is also talking specifically about the case of Melee-focused characters, which is sort of reasonable as if you're not melee-focused, then even if you do have Dodge or Gymnastics, you'll usually get beaten badly by anyone who is melee focused (and why would they attack that way if they weren't). But if you're not a melee focused character and you still think there's a chance that you'll end up in Melee, then Dodge is better than Gymnastics. At least unless there's a handy ledge you can jump onto and run away!

That's my take on it anyway, which I think is fair.

K.

But you can get a benefit from Sythacardium 3(costing mere 6BP), for dodge you would have to with move-by-wire.
So you can easily get more dice for gymnastic then for dodge and you get a bonus for all other athletics kills too.

Hey... That makes sense to me, and was what I was thinking myself... I tend to prefer Dodge over Gymnastics almost always... But that is just me I guess...

Keep the Faith...

Note that his damage is actually a little low, due to a miscalculation on the Energy Aura. I'll see if I can fix it.

EDIT: Here's the fixed numbers.
1/2 Str = 5 (Base str 3, +1 Adept ability, +3 armor, +2 from Satyr legs = 9 str)
+3 Bone Density
+5 Critical Strike
+6 Assumed hits on Energy Aura test
+2 Spikes
+1 Thorns
+2 Martial Arts
Total = (IIRC, you round str up, if not, subtract one point) DV 24, -1/2 AP. On a pixie.

Ah yes I remember that old post, the number were slightly off but not enough to matter. IIRC no one liked Super-Speed ,who was a obvious take on Sonic the Hedgehog, which is strange since he could one shot a great dragon.

Close one: Arcology Commercial and Housing Enclave - there's a public mall in it.
Sixth World Wiki entry.

show me.

Hmmmm. Very good catch. Does Gymnastics count as an "Athletics Test" when used for dodging? I reckon it's an oversight that it does, but by RAW I'd say a reasonably clear 'yes'.

Okay, extra argument for Gymnastics in the right circumstances, then.

@Neraph: I can't believe how hard-hitting that pixie is. It would need higher Force foci however. Force 1 foci would cap the hits too low. Unless you're saying you used Edge to get extra hits beyond the Force of the spell. Technically allowable by the rules but frequently houseruled and a bad idea in play, anyway. Still scary, though.

Yes, you Edge the spellcasting tests, but only if you want to use those Foci. You could just as easily sustain them yourself (taking some Psych would help), or pass some off to a spirit, and your Unarmed Skill is high enough to even work with that option.

As a sidenote, you can do the same setup with, say, a troll, or better yet, a were-bear, adding on about another 5P. You'd have to cut points somewhere else though. Also, don't forget that you can get another point from Martial Arts in game.

Yes but if you make it something other than a Pixie, the build losses a lot of its survivability. The neat thing about my build is that people take such a large penalty to even notice Super Speed while he is rearranging your face. Combine that with the armor tough enough to take some AOE damage and how fast the character can move and you can pretty much handle anything.

Also yes, I used Edge to stuff some some higher hits into the foci.

I made one a while back to help a friend out...
Pixie Physical Adept, with kick(to compensate for her short reach) of like 7P out of chargen...

I don't think that any kind of perspection roll is needed to notice someone who's in melee combat with you.

O Rly? Sadly nothing in the game states "You auto notice anything fighting with you", if you were to try and notice the 10 foot invisible troll beating on you...you still need to make a perception test. In fact with a typical -19 to your roll you have no choice but to Long Shot it to beat the characters stealth. Now if the Pixie is fighting you obviously it cannot be using stealth...but you still are required to make a long shot roll to even see the pixie (assuming -19 brings your total to 0 or below). Otherwise you follow the rules for Blind Fighting. Which, IIRC, will put you at a -12 to target the pixie. -6 for Blind and -6 for small target..hmm does a pixie get the -6 for small target? Either way the -6 is enough to make most NPC's long shot it anyway.

I do believe that the rule is that you do not have to roll perception for something that is obvious... someone beating on you is pretty obvious in my opinion...

Perception test to notice a pixie busting your friends skull open

Normal Threshold = 2 (possibly 1)

Modifiers
Perceiver is distracted -2
Concealment -6
Cheamelon Suit -4
Mini Target target -4
Spell - 6
(obviously not including stealth, so it is not a opposed test)

You perception skill + Bonus = (well say 12)
with Modifiers -10

Meaning you need to long shot the test, while something is wrong may be immediately obvious when your teammates head explodes, unless you can see it you have no clue whats going on.

EDIT: Of course I think you assume you would survive the initial surprise assault from Superspeed, No...I don't think you will. Lets assume I roll average (without edge) meaning you are going to take a 35P shot at -Half Impact.

Again, I will ask you why? For something obvious... and combat IS Obvious (and this interpretation is supported by RAW), why are you making your runners make a perception roll against something that is in active combat (Melee isn't it?) with them? Seems kind of like a dick move to me... No Offense, but that is what it sounds like to me...

And for the record... a simple implanted radar system will eliminate the modifiers for Spell, Size, Chameleon Suit, and concealment right off the top... and I would argue about the distraction modifier as well for combat...

And for the next point (your assumption that I would not see your pixie coming)... You are probably going to be detected coming in on my current character's position... don't assume that the "invincible and invisible" pixie is exactly that... it may not be... and chances are extremely good my current character will avoid the attack completely, possibly even beating you on your intitative and doing damage to him before he does damage to my character (of course you could dodge as well, but then nobody hurts anyone)... and all this without being a massively tweaked character, with average dice pools below 15 (all my combat skills fall between 10 -14 dice)

But hey, that is just me...

There is a difference between what is obvious and what is immediately noticeable. To put into mechanics terms - what requires a Threshold 1 Perception test and what doesn't need a Perception test at all. If combat is "obvious", then it requires the Perception test.

Aye exactly,

Yup Radar will get him, as will a few other things like Ultra Sonic

In that case you automatically see a person under Invisibility, so long as they attack you. That's silly.

Assuming that you have the right equipment, you see him automatically anyway... But I do take your point...

However, it seems to me that for the vast majority of circumstances... if you are in melee combat with an individual, you will not have to make perception tests to spot them... the magical invisibility being a possible exception to this...

Thanks Toturi for the Mechanical Breakdown...
Thanks Neraph for your patience...

Well, Concealment is a magical power. So why does the spell get the benefit, but not the innate ability of a supernatural being?

I said the spell MAY get the benefit... Concealment might as well... however, It can be interpreted that actively breaking your concealment (used for hiding) breaks the Concealment provided by the spirit... This is how it is done in our games anyway (Sure, it is a house rule, but makes a lot of sense)... but honestly, there are so many ways to break the Spell/Spirit power that it is generally useless anyway... and as I said, a Simple Radar system can negate it...

But that is getting into semantics, and does nothing for the discussion...

Keep the Faith...