Oh hoh! So that's how the NAN won!

They got access to the Stargate and used it to round up all the slave tribes the Goa'uld took and thereby bolstered their numbers. Throw in some of that advanced technology (weather control device, cloaking devices, maybe some of those human-enhancing armbands) that looks like magic. So we aren't actually playing Shadowrun, we're playing a dystopic version of Stargate!

That makes me a lot happier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Cheyenne was destroyed before SAIM could get its hands on it. I think NORAD moved their operations to their other base (North Bay).

This is a Sheddim thread. It refuses to dies.

Query, if a thread ressurects itself and then spawns new topics, does it become a Master Sheddim thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I've accepted that I won't convince the NAN haters regardless of what examples, numbers, or book references I might dig up.

Perhaps we could turn the thread to more constructive uses?

NAN recieved some serious shakeups from SR3 -> SR4. Ute got absorbed into Pueblo right? I don't have my books handy, but doesn't that make Pueblo the biggest NAN state now? I mean combined with LA, it seems like they are bigger than the Sioux now which used to be the 'big brother' NAN nation. And Tishimishan (I can never remember how it's spelled without looking it up) got eatten by the Salish, but I don't remember if it's all one nation now, or if something else happened.

As far as we know so far, the Pueblo probably has the largest population (absorbing the population of LA and Ute), I think the Athabaskan Council still has the most amount of land though. While Tishimishan is technically still it's own country it is effectively controlled by the SSC and I would expect that over the next 10 years in the SR universe it will be formally absorbed as well.

IN the case of domestic terrorist, my respons would definedly not be a nuclear bombing of the guilty party.

OK... but you didn't answer the question. What would you do to prevent them from doing that again. Let's face it, the President of the US did NOT know if the natams were able to do that again. What would you do to stop them?

Also, this was NOT terrorism, this was an open rebellion.

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@Alexand: Of course this thread will not die because there is more to discuss. As for not being able to convince us that the NAN make sense, of course you will not be able to because they don't.

KCKitsune:

I dunno, it seems the last 4 pages or so of the thread are just talking in circles. As for NAN not making sense .... SURE it's simply impossible that you might be wrong about anything.

Yeah I buy that. :rolleyes: In case you hadn't noticed, several people on this forum alone find NAN more believable then you give it credit. As much as I hate to break it to you, SR is for more than just you.

Conversations involve 2 people communicating, this is more like 2 brick walls ramming into each other over and over. SR Bumpercars if you will.

If it bugs you then stop coming back, for the record you show all the behaviors that supposedly drive you insane. When your evidence is debunked, specificly the population gaps between the native population even under best case and the rest of the poplation on orth american your response was basically "Well in my game everyone wanted to join them" when people pointed out that seemed somewhat fanciful given that they were basically a racist indians only movement you said "Well all the mexican's joined them" evidently other races in your own words don't "act like a hive mind" but the transient mexican/south American population does.

In short your lecturing pulpit is looking somewhat busted and if a discussion ont he internet is bugging you to the point where you can't add anything constructive to it nor add new arguments then maybe it is you who should back away and disengage.

I never said that I was not wrong. I was saying that the idea of the NAN was completely asinine. It was FASA asshattery and their overblowing of stereotypes and cliches. Honestly, Mexico all turning back into being Aztecs... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)



And there are people who agree with me.

Also, I do know that SR is more than me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) I wonder why you ever said that?



And yet you have yet to answer my question on what YOU would do if you were the President of the US during this time period. So, Alexand, what would you do?

If you were the POTUS and Coyote and his boys just killed 18,000 people, what would you do?

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@Kerenshara: I would also like YOUR answer on what you would do if you were the POTUS and the GGD just killed 18,000 people.

Finish reading my picture book.

OK... what does you picture book have to do with the topic being discussed? I mean what's the context?

Sorry, I should've quoted for context.

POTUSA

Keep underestimating us,white-eyes. Yellow-Hair did at Little Bighorn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The same thing that would happen if Bin Ladin took credit for Katrina trashing New Orleans- laugh at him.

Keep in mind NO ONE TOOK LOS ALAMOS SERIOUSLY. Natural disaster, yes. Terrorism, no.

The GGD was not acknowledged as a credible threat until Portland. Given the volcanos blew a mere hour or so after the death squad operation officially started, it had the timing to be a direct response.
Which means they can blow things up when they want. Los Alamos was retroactively declared the first exhange in the war. At that point you've got panic. Pants-wettening panic.

If you think Los Al is a horrible event, think of what New Madrid or San Andreas fault lines could do. In 2008 FEMA stated a New Madrid 7.7+ quake woukd result in "the highest economic losses due to a natural disaster." Keep in mind, this report is even post-Katrina.

We don't know what messages may have been sent to the POTUS through intelligence agencies or Aztlan diplomats. I'd wager "Portland was a warning shot. Care to negotiate or should we just get straight to MAD? If so, would you rather have California sink into the ocean before or after we make the Ohio and Mississippi run backwards?"

The Nan is improbable but history is full of panicked or demoralized groups surrendering lands and resources in the face of an unexpected military defeat. Rome traded some cities with Persia for centuries as reparations for this or that. Well, cities and literally tons of gold.

OK, that's a good answer. Thanks for answering.



I guess that I'm a much bigger flaming asshole who would look at the NAN and go "OK, let's play your way!" and nuke the Aztecs so badly that I would make Hitler look like Mother Teresa. I would not stop until they cried for mommy.

The reason I would do this is once you give in there is literally nothing to stop them from taking everything... a lesson that the Romans failed to learn.

Keep in mind that while the Romans traded outlying cities in the empire to another empire they didn't trade Rome or another central imperial city to them. That's the problem with the NAN, the US gave up so much that the losses due to MAD start to look viable by comparison.

If you want to play a zero-sum game you can but it'll come at the cost of your nation and people. Even if the NAN does no other GGD magic, nukes will still kill off the US.

Not just Rome but every great civilization that has fallen, and those which are falling now.

I don't have my Shadowrun books with me, nor do I know where to look up the information needed online. However, one has to ponder the POTUS at the time. What platform did she/he run on? Was she/he a staunch patriot?

BlueMax

And the Treaty of Denver didn't?

Sorry Kigmatzomat, the Treaty killed off the US and the Natams got to laugh all the way to the bank.

There are other elements required for treaties, like senate approval. Can you imagine the senators from Texas, Colorado, Arizona, etc voting for this?

Remember, it is an area that has little to no actual population in comparison to the rest of the United States... SO they got the Great Plains... SO What...

At least 24 Senators.

As a person living in Nebraska right now i'd just like to say a hearty F U. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which actually raises a good point even with the lack of actual population numbers the economic loss etc are pretty well cataclysmic.

SO... All States get 2 Senators, Big Deal, California gets 2 Senators... How many House Representatives are there? Not that Many in Comparison...

Having said that, you arn't going to pass a treaty without 24 senators from the states that will be ceded to a hostile and genocidal nation.