Yes, I know. So do I. But if I am going to say "I agree with you" I don't want to appear to agree with your personal "testiness". And I DO try to be polite and civil when somebody says something personally offensive... thought I have been known to get pissy a time or two when somebody REALLY pulled my tail.



You mean, what I basically said here?

Aye basically, although I'm personally not so sure that a cluture or magical tradition that refused cyber could have survived in the Sixth World given the shear amount of "ease of use" for lack of a better term that alittle cyber/bio gives someone, so in my view, even NAN Shamans probably have gone under the knife a time or two.

If I remember correctly, Street Magic continues the trend by telling us that Mages like their cyber, at least amongst corp circles.

OMG! All of our wage slaves have been bent over and pressed into the ground in these large, intricate circles! What happened here?!?

*chuckles* Either a very large steam roller or it's a sign of the oncoming Horrors.

Um, a tradition of hermetics with access to plant spirits? Get the spirits to trample your reallly big-ass hermetic circle into the crops in the middle of the night?

Nah, tis got to be the Horrors, they are comming people! THE END IS NIGH!

We are already here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Corps, not crops.

Yeah, I know. I like mine better. *grin*

*nirglive*

Fine then blow everyone's head off with a gauss rifle at 5,000 meters. Its not a question about being smart, its a question of being selectively smart. The cost effective smart tactics by the corps would leave every runner dead with no chance of success. So I don't pretend I'm doing what a smart corp is doing, I am honest about it and say the corp is going to do what would make a fun game for the group. If you want to vision mod things to death and that makes it fun for you, totally go for it. But don't pretend its a role playing decision based on sound tactics. Because if you were just role playing it with sound tactics the runners would lose every time. Most GMs selectively determine what is the right amount of "smarts" for the corp based upon what kind of challenge they want to provide for the group in that encounter with at best a marginal nod toward realism.

Still blowing smoke I see. The reason that the corps don't design their buildings to be impervious Fortresses of DOOM is at least two-fold.

( 1 ) Costs, there is a bit of hyperbole that claims we could make cars as safe as tanks if people were willing to pay millions for the family sedan and the principle holds true, with the exception of the truly Earth shattering hardest of the hardcore shit the corps aren't going to simply throw money away, they are instead going to settle for "secure enough" and take their loses when necessarily.

( 2 ) Outside of pointless thought experiments, Fortresses of DOOM simply can't exist because it has to be possible for people to actually work in the facility, and people aren't perfect. There has to be a backup plan that allows the VIPs access even if they forgot or lost their passcard, have a cold, ect, or if a necessary piece of equipment breaks just before an important deadline.


So perhaps YOU think that Runners should be able to make runs at zero zones because it can make a good story and result in a fun game, I on the other hand prefer more than a "marginal nod" towards realism when playing my NPCs. Tinted through heavy shades of the Pink Mohawk subgenre of Cyberpunk of course.

Um no its not blowing smoke. You can make things unassailable to runners for fairly cheap. It doesn't have to be an impenetrable fortress since what they are protecting against are small teams and not armies. Astral support on a scale the runners can't cope with can be there in moments from any large corp. And each astral mage can bring a spirit to drop in on the party. Why doesn't each and every corp guard throw a grenade or fire a missile into the party as there basic weapons instead of a SMG, fixing the place back us is fairly cheap its not like there getting raided every day. 10 grenades coming your way in the first pass of a fight will wreck your day big time even if you have the almighty cover. If a spell is cast why aren't they tracked, hunted down and killed. Face it for cheap you can make running a death sentence for each of the players. You choose what to use and what not to use based on what is fun for your group.

Ok, tell me why such tactics aren't generally SOP in the closest examples we have of Runners and the Megas in the real world. Black Ops/Spys and Militaries.

I see so the basic security for every building in the world is 10 cops with grenade launchers? And in each of these buildings they have astral security on call 24 - 7? Then at each of these sites they have corp spiders ready to drop barriers with thermo smoke to make vision impossible for any mages in those hallways, and those same corp spiders have armed drones at their beck and call?

Nevermind what happens when these 24-7 security armed with missiles and grenades screw up and kill innocent people, how much does it cost to equip, train, and maintain this sort of security? Ok, what happens when the runner's hacker takes control of the security system and drops the thermo smoke and drones on those security and gets them to kill each other? It is impossible to come up with foolproof security. The thermo smoke barrier thing will impair corporate and shadowrunner equally. If it becomes prevalent, it will be easy to discover on a data search prior to a run.

The corp has no clue what facility might be raided by a group of shadowrunners. They cannot possible secure them all. The cost of security measures should be commensurate with the value of the site, and in keeping with the perception that it is at risk of invasion. If the site is important, and attack by runners likely, then all of the measures listed above might be employed, but a normal office building with nothing of real value will have two retired cops with lumbago sitting in the lobby. Mages are expensive, and generally do not like working for restrictive corps. They are always in short supply, the idea that they are available on instant 24 hour notice is ludicrous. While it may be possible to create security countermeasures to deal effectively with any given situation, some of them are mutually exclusive.

Well said Orcus, although I'd like to disagree slightly and point out that the vision mods really only hinders people without enhancements, either through magic, implants, or simple googles.

Well, as to the grenades, it's quite simple, really. Human nature. Repairs require paperwork. There's probably paperwork about use of "excessive force" and getting retroactive permission to extensively damage company property. Some boss has to explain the expenses on his report. Etc, etc, etc ad nauseaum. I bet you didn't know that in many jurisdictions in real life, officers whose weapons clear their holsters have to fill out almost as much paperwork as if they had discharged them?

Nobody likes paperwork, and some pinhead up high is going to admonish the poor jerk at the sharp end for using a grenade when a couple frangible rounds from the company-issued (and probably manufactured) pistol or SMG should have been sufficient. Even in a firefight, the security guard is going to think thrice abut having to explain to a suit on the 37th floor why the same suit had to go in through another entrance the next morning, making him take an additional 92 steps and delaying his arrival at his office some 147 seconds. And while the guard is thinking, the 'runners just ended the firefight.

It sounds stupid as drek, because it is, but it's also EXACTLY the way big corporations work. Given the nature of the history of the 6^th World, I would expect it to be even worse.

And as has been said in other threads, remote mages with spirits aren't the be-all end-all. The spiit manifests with what instructions? Kill whom? The people not wearing the company uniform? That could get indvertantly sloppy. People with guns? Oops. And despite my argument months ago in another thread that corps will have good security on tap, I don't see it as one mage for fifteen buildings. If that kind of idiocy became commonplace, you just start launching simultaneous 'runs. You defend your most important targets with your best forces. You cover the outer layers and secondary areas with just enough forces to keep the 'runners honest and to slow them down enough maybe the reaction force can arrive and nab them before they finish what they came to do. That's the main function of the reaction forces: to keep the 'runners from taking their time. A central mage with spirits sounds nice, but if you get that predictable, then magic becomes a pre-requisite for any team of 'runners, and they go in with plans first to neutralize the response spirit. Predictability is the bane of any security, no matter how carefully considered.

Sure, I agree. Who can afford to ensure that everyone on their team is fully decked out, an elite team of runners picking their spot to attack, or a corporation with 5000 security guards all over the world. I believe that these sort of pervasive defenses are essentially useless.

If the corp has some sort of vision impairment in all of their facilities, the runners will wear the appropriate gear, and mages will carry the correct spell to deal with the situation they foresee.

True, but something to consider is that the corps in the Sixth World has a habit of making their "employees" pay for mandatory equipment so cost isn't quite as much of an issue as it would be in the real world, although I do happen to agree that the countermeasures won't be installed everywhere for the reasons you've given.

*EDIT*

I should correct myself and say that I don't think the extreme version of the countermeasures will be everywhere, turning out the lights, blaring loud sounds through the speakers, and perhaps the flashing lights should be pretty much SOP, which means that Runners should have their own counters in place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

If you are willing to outfit all of your security with eyes and ear enhancements out the wazoo, fill corridors with smoke drops, flashing lights, blaring sounds. Then yeah having the corps roll a few grenades down the corridor as SOP is probably cheaper and more effective. As for mages any corp with the money for the cyber, smoke etc they have maybe 50 security mages within 5 minutes of astral flight, having 10 show up with spirits doesn't seem that complex or costly.

On top of that a single mage with some forensics skill and asensing can track the party down and you can kill them at your leisure, and that is ignoring all the tech options to track and kill or roll in enough reinforcements that you ownt make it out the door.

Eh my view of SR corps is different. Corporations are little kingdoms ruled by an oligarchy, in any secure facility there would probably be more paperwork trying to explain why you didn't blow the crap out the intruders with extreme measures than if you kept it to guns. Especially if that means they got away with multi-million nuyen project info. Furniture, wage slaves there there just replaceable property why worry about the collateral damage if it means you increase the chance people make it out with important data.

Edit: I forgot your spirit part. The trick is you don't have the spirits kill anyone, though you could easily have them just kill everyone with a gun since the guards lives aren't worth the worry. All you have to do is use the disgustingly effective spirit powers that slow and contain the party. Delaying them until a kill squad shows up is all you really need.

So you are saying that in your world, the corps are all knowing, all powerful, with unlimited manpower of the highest possible skill and integrity. The corps have an unlimited budget, are answerable to noone, and can do anything they wish. My only question then is what your runners do for a living, deliver pizzas I suppose? It would be pointless to oppose the all powerful corps in anyway, so I assume that they just sit at home knitting when they are not obeying the mandates of the corps.

hi hi

To be fair, the megacorps answer to no one but themselves. But I think even the little corps would be able to afford both googles and glasses for their defense needs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Runners without flare comp and dampeners (at the very minimum) are just wannabes &/or targets.

Neither of which require cyber - which is where this conversation wandered to for a bit. Add in natural low-light/thermographic and a hands-free low-light/thermographic flashlight built into the frame of your goggles/glasses and your magician is going to be fine.