Please give me an example from a related genre's movie or television series that meets the following criteria. Suitable genres include the fantasy, adventure, sci-fi and cyberpunk genres.

1. A kid (defined as someone 14 or younger and who looks and acts like one) is a major contributor to a team of equally skilled professionals.
2. The kid is not being carried by another team member or any other character; they are completely independent.
3. The kid is not completely annoying to the audience.
4. The kid isn't simply a vessel for a superior entity such as a god or alien.
5. The kid's presence isn't a burden to the team or other characters, such as limiting their options to resolving the plot.
6. The kid isn't part of an all-kid or mostly-kid team where you have to completely ignore your suspension of disbelief.

I really look forward to hearing anything you might find because in all my days, I have never even heard of such a scenario. I can cite many, many examples to the contrary, though. I can also cite numerous examples involving AIs, Shapeshifters, Magicians, Gun Nuts, and other similar archetypes, however.

Children suck. They even suck a little bit more as RPG-chars. Thats a fact like water is wet. You don´t have to like it. I won´t change anyway.^^

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImprobableAge

There's precedent.

Noes! You linked "That Site"! I am doomed for the rest of the day!

And I take it we are not taking Anime into consideration when you asked that? Because if so the answer would have to be: Basically every Anime ever made (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Well, shyeah. I mean, if Ash and his buddies can wander the dangerous Pokemon world at just ten years old, surely such a character can fit in just fine into every Shadowrun game ever, regardless of what feel or flavor the GM and other players might be striving for.

I'm convinced!

I should clarify a few things. I am an experienced gamer, with some 10 years of roleplaying experience. When I develop characters, I try to do something that is outside of my regular norms, a tiny bit quirky, or something that would provide me with a challange. The notion of playing a kid in Shadowrun falls into that third category. It provides and interesting character detail that would be quite a challange to my skills as a gamer. The reason why I started the thread was to look into the disadvantages of playing a younger character. I fully intend to have very little cyberware, a little less money, and a whole bunch of social problems that will be addressed through game (like child prejudice and having less freedom). That's because they all make sense. Simply forbidding the idea because kids are winy and immature diesn't make sense.

I think in this specific case, with the character details I have in mind, that is character is very viable. Of course it requires a certain kind of game (and GM approval), but that is mostly just making sure the GM is prepared for the character more than anything. You have to remember that we are talking about Shadowrun here. It is a game of stereotypes and broken stereotypes. It is a game where a Troll Ganger could be interested in the finer points of life (like poetry and tea drinking) in order to take his mind off of the horrible things he does. It is a game where an Elf could be not fopish and irritating, but rather strong and hard boiled. It is a game where it is quite likely that some teenaged script kitty is actually the elite hacker the team hired to help them out (whether they know it or not). It is a game where things that are out of the ordinary are quite likely to happen.

If having a younger teen in your party isn;t your bag, that's fine. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable character. As long as the character is thought out, there shouldn't be a problem.

Dr. Funkenstien was looking for examples in fiction. If you'd like examples from reality, there's precedent there, too.

Still waiting for a valid example that meets my criteria. (Hint: None of your links meets them. Especially the last one.)

You must have missed Fullmetal Alchemist in the TV Tropes link.

1. They're kids.
2. They both contribute.
3. While occasionally annoying, they both also have very grown-up or dramatic moments.
4. Neither of the kids are vessels for superior entities.
5. Neither of the kids are a burden. In fact, they are often working side-by-side with adults.
6. While the two of them mostly strike out on their own, they also work side-by-side with adults and carry their own weight.

Aside from that, there's also Spider-Man (especially the Ultimates series), X-Men and spin-offs (particularly the Xcalibur and the like), A Song of Ice and Fire, Naruto (whose team is all kids, but often works beside adults), The Incredibles (as opposed to the Incredulous, who are often seen posting on DSF), The Two Towers (film version), 24 (Redemption), and likely a few others. Incidentally, I compiled this list from the link I originally posted.

This is not including real-life, of course (your criteria specifically asked for film and tv shows, so that leaves out a lot of examples, especially from literature). There is at least one example I can think of off the top of my head of a person aged 14 or younger having won the Medal of Honor in battle; there are probably more.

I can also say, as someone who routinely works with teenagers, that many of them are more than capable of working side-by-side with adults. However, personal experience, like personal incredulity, is not a good argument, so I would weigh it little against other arguments.

First, let me say ScooterinAB clarified things quite well. I agree 100% with everything he just said. Now, lets talk about your quote Dr. Funkenstein.



1: You want a kid who looks and acts like a kid. Now lets (first) assume you are talking about the average child. This of course would be a contradiction to the entire theme. In fact, a normal adult would contradict the theme of shadowrun. Normal adults don't do illegal activity for money... ever. Otherwise they aren't your average adult, they are abnormal. So, lets cross out the points that they look and act like a 14 or less child, because your just trying to limit the emotional capacity of them. Even if we aren't limiting that, lets assume you are looking at perhaps abnormal child behavior. The rare intellectual gem in the mass expanse of immature midgets (since, most child runners are type casted as hackers).

Real Life
Fantasy World

Now I'm not going to look through them all to make sure they aren't annoying, gifted by some supernatural source, or a burden to their team. But then again we are still defining your first point. And you contradict yourself anyway. You are asking me to find a child who acts like a child, but doesn't act like a child. If you don't understand that point, lets just skip it and go to the next.

2: "Carried by another team member" - Much like the unconscious spellcaster or hacker after they have fought their difficult battles in the realm most mortals dare not go.

"they are completely independent" - Why would you ever shadowrun in a team if you were completely independent? Is your character completely independent? Can they hack, cast spells, fire guns, and negotiate? Do you need to do all that to have a complete character or can you specialize?

3: "annoying to the audience" - I'm sorry, I wasn't aware shadowrun was a movie. First, I thought Keanu Reeves was pretty damn annoying in Johnny Mnemonic. Second, I know you are talking about Wesley Crusher, shame on you. Third, if you aren't talking about him, then you are talking about all children in general; personally I don't find all children annoying. Fourth, if the character is annoying that has more to do with roleplaying style than being a kid; I guarantee I can make an annoying adult just as easily as I can make an annoying child.

4: Next, what is wrong with having a child possessed by a god or alien? Can you not have an adult that is the same? Can you not roleplay a character who is possessed by a god or an alien? Sounds to me like you don't have something against child characters, but when people play them in an annoying way.

5: "The kid's presence isn't a burden to the team or other characters, such as limiting their options to resolving the plot." There are many qualities that someone can take to become a burden, not just a child character. There are many metahumans races that can be a burden to the team. I hear racism is an issue in the year 2070. It is all how the GM decides to limit the group. If someone decides to be a child and the GM wants to punish their choice by saying, "Oh, you just screwed your team, Mr. Johnson now refuses to work with you because your a child," then of course being a child is dumb. Of course, I can see it happening this way too, "Oh, you just screwed your team, Mr. Johnson now refuses to work with you because your a Troll." Funny how changing one word can destroy an argument, neh?

6: Well, I'm glad this isn't a fictional game where we need to believe everything is compatible with the real world, otherwise I would never have guessed how it could be possible a spirit made of fire could appear in front of my character. (did you get the sarcasm?)

When you try to fit every character into your neat little package you made it can make games limited and boring. It also limits the genre so fewer people want to play. I'm pretty sure they didn't add vampires to the game because they thought it fit a Magical Cyberpunk, but maybe I'm wrong.

On a side note: Sorry about the format. I don't spend much time on forums so I haven't figured out how to hide text when I write too much and it fills up the page. I'll work on that.

Too much to quote and reply, so I'm going to skim to the juicy parts in my reply.


No, I just avoid any and all forms of Japanese anime as much as I possibly can. It's shite.


Spider-Man isn't part of a team and has not been a kid for a very, very long time (late teen != kid, and formerlly married, graduated college student most certianly doesn't). The X-Men are part of a team comprised of other kids in a setting that's completely irresponsible and forces the viewer to suspend all disbelief in order to believe a team of kids are out risking their lives, so that's right out, too.


No idea who you're talking about here. It's clearly not the adult hobbits who were in the Fellowship. You know, the ones who were drinking booze, living on their own, and simply had a few innocent qualities as a part of their race rather than due to age. Those aren't the "kids" you're referring to in the Two Towers, are you? Surely not.

Your other references are a big "what?" to me, so I can't reply about them.


You again mistake kids who can do acts like this with functional members of a professional team being hired as freelancers by professional businessmen and criminal bosses. To do things such as corporate espionage, extractions, and wetwork. Professionals aren't going to want to work with a snot-nosed kid, and Johnsons and other clients aren't going to want to hire one when they can easily hire an adult with the exact same skillset who isn't a liability with a huge, flashing, neon "NOTICE ME" sign over their head. A kid is going to stand out in a crowd of criminals far more than a mohawked dwarf or a gigantic troll will.



Yes, that's clearly what I was referring to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)


Completely independent, as clearly described in context with the rest of that criteria, means someone who doesn't need anyone else to function propertly. It's a criteria. Not the defacto state of being for all kid characters.

Damn, accidently deleted the third rebuttal and I can't recall what I originally said (damn my medication). But in a nutshell, I was referring specifically to characters like the kid in Robocop 2 first and foremost. You know, the ones who are annoying to the audience in a film or -- and unless you're really a fool instead of just pretending to be one while replying to these criteria -- other players at the table in a Shadowrun game.


Again, are you just pretending to not get these criteria? I really hope you are. But on the off-chance you're not, it's a clear reference to "kids" who aren't kids at all -- such as Ra in the Stargate movie. So trying to use one as an example is completely and utterly invalid because they're not kids, they just happen to look like one.


Actually that's exactly what would happen in any game that's even remotely believable. If you're a Johnson and you're going to hire someone to break into a rival company's R&D lab to steal some multi-million nuyen project, are you going to want to hire a kid or an adult to do the job all other things being equal? Shadowrunners aren't hard to come by. Hiring a kid is just stupid for any number of reasons, including them being very noticable and thus traceable based solely on the fact that they're a kid. They can't even do basic things shadowrunners do all the time, like disguise themselves as part of the janitoral service. Which relates directly to my first reply in the thread; what few advantages they do offer are grossly outweighed by all the negatives.


Now you're relying on that argument? Must suck to have such a weak stance that you have to rely on that kind of hyperbole bullshit.

Oh. Then you probably should have said "except anime" in there somewhere. Still, I'm not sure "I don't like it so it doesn't count" is much of an argument.


Ultimate Spidey is 14. Spider-Man was a member of the Avengers, and Ultimate Spidey has worked with the Fantastic Four (who are adults). The X-Men are, for the most part, young adults (or quite old), but work with teen members like Dazzler.


The film version shows children and old men fighting alongside the warriors of Rohan.


Might I suggest Wikipedia? It's a pretty good place to look things up.

<shrugs> Whatever. I've learned a long time ago it's pointless to argue with people who can't grasp the basic concept enough to get the point. Enjoy your games. Just stay out of mine with stupid shit like this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wow. I actually agreed with you until I read your last few responses. Now I want to disagree on principle. Reading your posts / responses is like playing with the guy who is overacting the annoying old curmudgeon who hates anything that isn't the way he's always done it. You've become a stereotype of intolerance. I am amazed.

Excluding an entire medium as "shite" is about as narrow minded as someone can get. I generally dislike anime, but even I know enough to know that there are exceptions to every rule.

Playing a kid comes with it's drawbacks, but none that can't be gotten around. In my group now there is a rigger that has never physically met with the team / a Johnson. What do they do when they meet a Johnson that requires every single member to meet him physically? They walk away. That's a pretty strange requirement anyway, smells of a setup.

It's no different than if you have someone playing an AI on the team. Other than that, if the person is up to RPing a responsible, mature (ish) kid, good for them.

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

I assume your still arguing with me because I can grasp the basic concept enough to get the point. Otherwise, as you said, it would have been pointless to argue with me and a person surely wouldn't argue without point.

I am confused because you seem to be arguing two points. On one hand you are arguing that the physical nature of a child makes them noticeable in a crowd of criminals, but I thought the only time a shadowrunner wanted to look like a criminal is when he is doing the crime.

Then, you argue that their mental stability makes them incapable of being a shadowrunner and you expected me to find this magical creature that does not exist in even fantasy worlds (this magical creature is a normal child). I mean, if the physical nature of a child made a difference, why would you exclude a child that is inhabited by an alien (or is one) or a god. Obviously they would have the mental capacity to go on a run, so would you be against a player playing such a child?

If someone made a character... let's say... a Gnome with a low charisma the negative quality 'Dependent'. Wouldn't that make them unplayable by your standards? They aren't a child and they are completely within the rule sets. I personally would never choose to have dependents, but it may be interesting to have a roommate. So we could even say the parents of the hypothetical child shadowrunner were rather neglectful, therefore pretty much being roommates (not unheard of).

I also remember a point someone made that a good Johnson and fixer choose the runners because the mission fits their talents.

Sure, I just argued the point as a mental exercise in boredom, but that doesn't make my points invalid. I see you only responded to a few of my points, which suggests to me they were indisputable (yes, I'm delusional enough to think that). Feel free to pick and choose the arguments you feel capable of defending, then completely ignore the others pretending I made no good arguments to defend the position that child characters are playable. As you could see in my last post I made a point to not ignore any part of your argument. If you can't find a flaw in one of my points, give me 'props' for my well argued points and disable my not so well argued points.

P.S. (you know... the other script that was before this one) Lets try not to make this into personal attacks and swearing. Lets keep in mind there are, in fact, real children that play these games and we wouldn't want to be insulting their intelligence or corrupting their young minds with such foul language. Because obviously a child playing shadowrun doesn't have a mind corrupted by violence and misery. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) <---- My smiley face is genuine

The points I'm arguing are three-fold. The main one being that they're not going to be hired by anyone, another is that stick out like a sore thumb even in a world filled with metahumans, and the last is that they bring nothing to the table that an adult couldn't also bring without the excess baggage.

The bit I was getting frustrated about was how people try to dismiss each criteria on its own merits rather than address it as a whole. The criteria was basically there as a challenge to "show me an example of a Shadowrunner-esque team that has a kid in it, and that isn't hampered or focused heavily on the kid." But instead of actually finding an example like that -- which I think was pretty damn clear in both context and plain text -- I got crap like "well, kids were fiighting in the background in Lords of the Ring! Thus proving without a doubt that kids are acceptable on a Shadowrun team!" or "Well, here's an obscure example of kids being recruited to fight in a war, so clearly they'll make good Shadowrunners!" or even "well, what's wrong with a character being possessed by a god or alien?! Adults can be possessed by gods or aliens, so it proves without question that kids are acceptable Shadowrunners!"


Except with kids, the GM has to go out of their way to create missions that fits their talents and the fact that they're a kid for the sole purpose of a Johnson or fixer hiring them for a mission that just "happens" to fit their talents. Moreso than most any other concept. AIs, Shapeshifters, Drakes, etc. can all pass as normal adults with relative ease. A kid can't without heavy use of magic, at which point there's no point in even playing a kid if you're not going to actually be playing as a kid.

I know your point is that a child is a niche character, but is it so wrong to want to play a niche character? Should a GM discourage such behavior? Some GMs don't do a lot of magic or even hacking, but that doesn't make the mage or hacker any less valid as a shadowrunner. It isn't about a child character being inconvenient, it is about what someone wants to play. I can conceive in my head of a child shadowrunner. I can build a background and I can give them traits that make it valid.

Personally I appreciate when a GM builds a game based around the characters the players create. I give GMs every right to say, "No, I'm sorry, I don't want that in my game," but that doesn't make the types of characters they don't want impossible ideas.

And who said that if you play a child they need to act like a child. How do children act? If you are going to stereotype a child's behavior in one way, why would anyone play a Troll in any other way other than a STR and BOD build? Other than an Elf Face? Other than a Dwarf Rigger? The idea is to be creative and have fun. Frankly, I find nothing funnier than someone saying I can't go to the meeting, I have to do my homework. Or a troll talking about psychological ramifications of WWII. Or a fat elf who is uncouth yelling at small children walking down the street.

I think the first rule of gaming is have fun. It isn't good to take it serious all the time... even though it is 'punk'.

Ah yes, the noble profession of shadowrunning that can only be done by those with a mature mind. I mean, stealing, killing, and other acts against the laws and moral values of the society is so totally not in the job description.




In any case, here's my take on it. Though I am thinking more of the age of early teen like 13 rather than 6 or 8.

Whether someone becomes a shadowrunner or not depends on whether he has the motivation and ability. 

Whether a Johnson hires a team of shadowrunner or not depends on whether the team can get the job done.




For motivation, anyone can end up wanting or needing to shadowrun, whether it's for money, excitement, or unavoidable circumstances. 

For ability, with technology and magic around, it's not really hard for a teen to be as lethal as an adult.




Now, would a Johnson hire a team with a kid?

You might be better off by first asking whether a Johnson would hire a group of shadowrunners with no street cred. The answer is yes, he would. If he has never worked with the team before, he's not going to give you anything too important to start with. But as long as you get the job done, he doesn't care whether your team has a troll, a kid, or an AI. As the kid and his team build up street cred, they will take on more important jobs. Physical age doesn't really matter as long as he can get the job done. He has to prove it just like everyone else.




What if Johnson already worked with the team and they want to add a kid?

As long as they get their job done AND that the budget allows, it's the team's choice whether they want or need more people on the team, a kid or not. I mean, does Johnson test your new team member to make sure he's fit for the run? Does the Johnson say "Sorry, we want you guys to be discreet this time, so the troll with panther cannon and no infiltration skill is not getting paid." No, Johnson hires the best team available based on the budget and leave it to the team. A team with a kid might be prejudiced against, but street cred and the team's reputation can fix that.




Does a kid have the experience, skill, and mentality for shadowrunning?

Well, who does the first time? It's something you quickly pick up. Physical age does not reflect your mental age, nor does it reflect whether you have the experience, skill, and mentality needed to be a shadowrunner. A child soldier probably has more experience with guns and battlefield than your average drafted soldier or recruits that never seen war. If the kid becomes a shadowrunner for whatever reason, he's going to have to pick it up fast or die.




There are also many other factors. Leonization can restore someone to the age of young adult, so someone that's very experienced could appear like a kid. The next time you run into a young hacker talking about how he's the best of the best, maybe that's FastJack you are talking to. So how would a Johnson know if this kid is really a kid, magically made to look like a kid, or had genetic treatment to make him a kid? Again, as mentioned earlier, it doesn't matter.

And there might be situations where a kid is the perfect candiate to help a shadowrun go smoothly. I mean, there are some people that think a kid can't be a shadowrunner, that's gotta be something you can exploit.

The kid will be easily identifiable and soon caught? Nonsense, he wouldn't be more identifiable than the rest of the runners. The team did disguise him like they would everyone else, right? What's lone star going to look for? A person with stature of a kid? Good luck with that.




Anyway, remember physical age and mental age are very different things. Anyone can grow up fast mentally, if its necessary. A kid does not have to be bratty, dumb, or noticeable. There are certainly kids that are grown up mentally and can work well with other runners. If anything, a kid is easier to mold into the ideal runner than a grown up with certain ideas already stuck in their head.




Now here's hoping a gm would throw a talented young hacker at the team, only to have them find out that it's FastJack with a leonization gone wrong.  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Emphasis mine.

How is playing a child hacker who does all interaction through the matrix (drones, whatever) any different from playing an AI? Even the personality issues you may have are no different, seeing as AIs are probably very immature socially (high knowledge, low experience).

I can't speak for everyone but my characters have tended to prefer meeting their team in the meat and I have a higher then average propensity for playing matrix based characters. The greatest obstacle a child hacker or anything is going to face is going tob e getting the team and the J to trust them. In the day and age of the wireles matrix a stay at home hacker just isn't viable anymore.

I do believe Dr. Funkentsein is majorly overplaying the complications a child might have operationally. Traditionally whole teams of shadowruners do not try and infilatrate the sitew as janitorial staff and I certainyl don't believe a child would stand out more in the average crowd then a pink mohawked dwarf.

Actually, we pretty much proved in another thread that it is just as easy to be a stay at home rigger as it used to be to be a stay at home hacker.

As for the critieria, consider Mathilda Lando (Natalie Portman) from Leon the Professional.


Or River from Firefly.

I'll second Mathilda from The Professional

Something to think on is having the youngen as a Technomancer. Also happens to be a bit of a genius and for (insert background here) is living on the streets. A challenge to RP with the rest of the group, but really useful. I happen to have an NPC that is 9 and an excellent help to the group. In firefights she spends a lot of time hideing behind large obgects (or Trolls, Which ever is closer). Just think of a mix of Half-Round from Indiana Jones and some of the more intelligent young charecters from Anime. Base facts are she is a street kid. Don't see how you couldn't build a kid useing the regular rules, just comen sense the stats and skills. My thoughts anyway.

A kid Technomancer is basically an Otaku from 3rd Ed.