DISCLAIMER:
-Yes, I am fully aware that Shadowrun™ is designed around close-quarters combat and the rule system isn't SPECIFICALLY TWEAKED to represent long-range shooting. Comments reminding me of that fact will not add anything constructive to this thread.

Okay...so a character with an average agility (AGI 3), rudimentary training in Riflecraft (Longarms 1), standing, firing from the shoulder, using iron sights (no scope) on a "sniper rifle" <I HATE that classification> and shooting at a man-sized target that is 600 meters out (-3 dice) will actually hit said target 1 out of three shots. Regardless of how much or little you know about RL Firearms and Ballistics, you can't help but agree that those numbers produce pretty ludicrous results.

Having said that, I would like to know what sort of house rules the Dumpshock community has come up with in order to be more representative of how to at least semi-accurately represent the difficulty of long-range shooting.

If you think the rules are fine as is and foster more fun than an accurate hose ruling would, then consider your this sentence your post, rendering an actual post from you unnecessary.

Comments on RL experiences while shooting at such ranges are welcome.

The rules are silly, but bear in mind that something as simple as the sun in the shooter's eyes, or a bit of morning fog will drastically reduce his chances of making this shot.

The best ruling I've found so far to increase the difficulty of long range marksmanship was making the range penalties into thresholds instead. Then, you need a giant mountain of dice to hit anything out at the long and extreme range catagories, and if your target is aware of you, hitting becomes damn near impossible.

I like that a lot, but wasn't there also something about the penalties going up in 4A?

The penalties went from 0/-1/-2/-3 to a much more harsh 0/-1/-3/-6, drastically reducing the relative effectiveness of the Improved Range Finder modification from Arsenal.

How does that reduce the effectiveness? Oh, because it was a fixed bonus?

Sure, reduce the chances for making the shot for the guy with a dice pool of 4 to start with. But not really compromise the average Deer/Elk Hunter using a scope.



I figured someone would mention thresholds. I'm working on that very thing right now. It's tough to find a balance between making the shots too easy and making them so hard that the 15 dice pool Samurai can't make them even under ideal situations.

The way Scopes work is damned annoying as well. I recently did some range shooting with a .223 Panther DPMS and a 14.5x Leupold Scope and even from a benchrest position, I got a lot of reticule bounce when I so much as breathed wrong. Yes, scopes make long-range targets easier to hit than iron sights, but they don't magically make 600 meter shots a piece of cake.

Well, shooting at targets is a bit different than shooting at something that is shooting back at you. Negative modifiers just for use.

-Chrysalis

That's why long range shooting is as much an art as a science, because it's not frequently completely repeatable. Breathing and muscle control, especially in the firing hand, are EXTREMELY important. Breathing is a major training item for snipers. Was that your first time using a scope at any meaningful range?


Shooting back at you... I don't think there's a modifier for it at all.

Now, put this in perspective: a trained sniper (Ex S.E.A.L.) picked up an Israeli 5.59mm Tavor and using just the reflex sight standing unbraced put three single shots into the head and torso of a man-silhouette at over three hundred meters. The range officer had been a bit snide up to that point, but after those cold-bore shots, he was much more respectful. Funny, that. It's doable, but it takes skill and a LOT of practice. Like I said in another thread: high skill levels (5 and 6) should be EXPECTED to do things like that regularly.

In RL, yes! In Shadowrun, not so much.

By the Rules:
1. If the target is at 600 meters and is shooting back with any small arm that is less than a "sniper rifle", he CANNOT hit me.
2. Even if the target is firing back at me with a sniper rifle, as long as I'm not using full defense, I suffer zero dice penalties...even if I'm making Reaction Defense tests against his shots.

The point I was trying to make is that IRL™ a human-sized, stationary steel plate is still almost impossible to hit while standing up, unsupported, and using iron sights. Shadowrun makes it too easy.

I have this problem: I keep confusing RL with Shadowrun.

I still think that if something is dangerous at 600 meters, I most likely will try to make sure it dies with the first shot.

-Chrysalis

I've done a fair bit of of shooting with 3x and 6x Scopes, usually at targets under 200 meters. In the Army, I did some iron sight shooting at up to 300 meters, but most of that was on a qualification range. In our training engagements, most of the time I was shooting at targets under 100m, and usually at 50. So while I'm familiar with using a scope, that was my first time shooting something as powerful as a 14.5x scope. I didn't care for it. We were shooting clay pigeons (4" diameter clay discs for those who haven't heard of the term) that we had laid out on 100m, 200m, and 300m berms. While the pigeons were easy to spot with the scope, even at 300m, I wasn't ready for how "jumpy" the scope was. Honestly, I think I would have fared better with a 6x scope. But it was fun, nonetheless.




First off, I enjoy Future Weapons too, but Mack is a f***ing douchebag. Moving on...

Putting 5.56 rounds into a 300m man-sized target with a red-dot equipped rifle while standing up isn't really that hard. At our 200m berm, I was plugging an 8"x8" steel plate with an Aimpoint equipped AR-15. I think I probably hit 9 out of every 10 shots, and I'm hardly what you would consider a skill of 5 or 6. I'm sure Mack can out-shoot me, but he makes a lot of things on that show sound like he is doing the impossible, when what he is doing is certainly on the routine side for someone who is former SpecOps.

And for the record, he put 1 shot on the target at 300 meters, not 3. And if you watch the target, his shot lands less than an inch from the outside edge of the target. See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3qQB4b4Pgo
1 minute and 57 seconds in

While you're at it, at approx 16 seconds into the video, he calls the M16 a "machine gun". WTF? I've met Airforce cooks that know better than to call the M16 a "machine gun". I know he's reading a script, but have some professional pride, for Christsake.

There is a modifier for being shot at- its called "Attacker Firing from Cover" and if you aren't using it... well good luck with that.

As far as scopes go, I think its one of those things where there just isn't enough "resolution" in the system to accurately represent all the variables. If you feel like its overly simplistic you could always create levels of Vision Mag that correspond to SR4 modifiers (+0, -1, -2, -3) and then use the SR4A modifiers (+0, -1, -3, -6) such that even a top of the line scope with Vision Mag won't negate all modifiers at very long ranges.

Most of the time I bring this up, I hear
"Cover? Cover? You want me to waste an action grabbing cover? I'll go first and stunbolt/split 10 shot kill 3/ fire a grenade them/order my drones on them."
And with six fast players, I have to throw mounds of goons at them just to challenge them to first pass kills.

That being said, everyone at the table likes this style of play for 4A and we appreciate that others may want to grab cover, as we do in other systems.

And don't even get me started on the player in the Sunday game who has a gyro in his arm.

Ranged combat in 4th is a game of "find the modifiers". Apply others. Pollution, in most areas, is so bad that the smog should count as Fog at 600 Meters.


BlueMax
/ and on the nights we have 7, fuggetaboutit

Sort of. You might be shooting from prone. Then again, you might not have been spotted, and just need to make one shot, against a stationary, unaware target. Even those shots are tough IRL™.





That's not a bad idea. Though I am liking the use of thresholds more and more. Right now, I'm running some numbers with the following:

Range/Threshold

Short/0
Medium/2
Long/4
Extreme/6

One other thing I'm playing with is bipods/benchrest. Right now, I have a bipod not granting any RC, but instead allowing you to double the bonus you get from Take Aim actions. Those extra dice come in real handy when trying to hit those high thresholds.

Also, I have Scopes lowering the thresholds by their rating, rather than shifting the Range Cat. So even with a Rating 3 Scope, you still have a threshold of 3 for an extreme range shot.

You forgot a key modifier that should pertain to all shots in Seattle (And Vancouver if anyone ever plays there.).

What is it?

Rain of course! Nothing like a few raindrops on a scope to screw up a shot. Even with iron sights, it'll reduce visibility by a great deal.

Anyhow, it's Cyberpunk. It's always raining. And that annoying, stinging rain that doesn't clean out anything but makes your life miserable nonetheless. And don't even think about the pollutants in it!

Also, take into consideration that you might not HAVE 600 metres of clear line of sight. In a forest/jungle (The trees!)? City (Crowd/cars/curving streets/buildings/signs/AR Distractions)? Plains (Well, OK, here you have have a few MILES of LoS! And can watch your dog run away for three days straight)?

Other than that... Good shooting!

Oh, and FYI, ruleswise, I consider any "Sniper Rifle" to be one with a "Match Grade" barrel, while hunting rifles are just the type you get a Kong-WalMart. I'd increase the price of bullets for said rifles as well to get the best use out of them.

Does SR differentiate between firing standing up, unsupported and firing prone, or other body positions?

Sadly, no. You've got the same dice pool for a single shot lying with a spotter as you do kneeling by a nicely-shaped wall of rubble or hanging by your knees. While nobody would blink at a GM assigning a negative modifier to the latter situation, by RAW (as I know you're a RAWdog), you're golden.

The way you make scopes work for long range (at least for me, in RL) is to use a bipod and rear bag. So the rifle is largely isolated from my breathing.

Scopes have all sorts of issues that are not reflected in SR, and the mechanism that they chose to use to provide an game mechanic is just awful.

The other huge issues are that movement of the shooter is greatly underrated at range (nobody can make a 600 yard shot at a run, 5 yards isn't that hard.), movement of the target isn't related to range (shooting a moving target at 5 feet is a lot different that 500 yards), and there is no benefit for shooting from a stable position, like prone. In fact, there is a disadvantage from shooting from prone as it's most often done.

It doesn't rain that much in Seattle. Heck, every time I go it's sunny for a week! Guarantee it (I did once, as I was getting off the plane, told a guy "it'll be sunny all week, always is when I'm here" and it was).

Though the last time I was there it rained. A lot. Our hotel actually lost power about 20 minutes before we showed up. Admittedly it was March-ish and not July, and my mood wasn't bright and sunny--first time being in Seattle visiting grandparents and actually not wanting to be there.

It was raining today, but its the first we've had in quite a while. This time of year is actually quite nice. Its the Sept thru May part of the year that sucks.

That it may be IRL, but this is cyberpunk so it's gonna train 99% of story time.

4 DP reduced to 1.

You know, while you might succeed 1 out of 3 shots with 1 DP. You also critically botch 1 out of 6 shots.


Shadowrun works strangely at really low DP.

If we are talking realism, I should be missing 6 times, but not have my sniper rifle blow up in my face or the gun jamming or whatever critical botch would do.

That only works if my games are set in Seattle. But what if I'm running something in Libya (Desert Wars), The Sudan, Somalia, or Arizona? The game mechanics shouldn't break just because I choose to run my games outside of one single city.




Again, see my comment above.




I've thought about writing up something for Match Grade ammo, but I haven't been able to come up with something satisfactory.

You know, I re-read that part of my post and realized it did not come across at all how I meant it. It should have read "The way Scopes work IN SHADOWRUN is damned annoying as well. They are TOO good. Adding a scope IRL doesn't magically turn a 500m shot into a 50m shot." AND THEN I should have gone into my experience with the higher-power scope.




Amen, ma brotha.



Yup, all concerns that I am working on house rules to address. I've got a lot of theory, but haven't been able to put much of my rules into practice.

There is something off about Mack in Future Weapons. I wonder how many years was he actually in the SEALs and how much of that was sitting in a base playing cards. I noticed a few times he makes basic weapon safety mistakes. The whole show anyways is a glorified running advert for new weapon systems, most of them not adding anything new.

The whole weapon mod system is crap, like the vehicle modification rules. Like adding a hip brace is going to give mr a recoil modification unless I am firing a M2 in an AA role. But as I said I have problems that RL is clouding my Shadowrun rules knowledge.

1 nuyen for a match grade bullet, gives you +1 modifier, similar to a take aim modifer.