DISCLAIMER:
-Yes, I am fully aware that Shadowrun™ is designed around close-quarters combat and the rule system isn't SPECIFICALLY TWEAKED to represent long-range shooting. Comments reminding me of that fact will not add anything constructive to this thread.

Okay...so a character with an average agility (AGI 3), rudimentary training in Riflecraft (Longarms 1), standing, firing from the shoulder, using iron sights (no scope) on a "sniper rifle" <I HATE that classification> and shooting at a man-sized target that is 600 meters out (-3 dice) will actually hit said target 1 out of three shots. Regardless of how much or little you know about RL Firearms and Ballistics, you can't help but agree that those numbers produce pretty ludicrous results.

Having said that, I would like to know what sort of house rules the Dumpshock community has come up with in order to be more representative of how to at least semi-accurately represent the difficulty of long-range shooting.

If you think the rules are fine as is and foster more fun than an accurate hose ruling would, then consider your this sentence your post, rendering an actual post from you unnecessary.

Comments on RL experiences while shooting at such ranges are welcome.

The rules are silly, but bear in mind that something as simple as the sun in the shooter's eyes, or a bit of morning fog will drastically reduce his chances of making this shot.

The best ruling I've found so far to increase the difficulty of long range marksmanship was making the range penalties into thresholds instead. Then, you need a giant mountain of dice to hit anything out at the long and extreme range catagories, and if your target is aware of you, hitting becomes damn near impossible.

I like that a lot, but wasn't there also something about the penalties going up in 4A?

The penalties went from 0/-1/-2/-3 to a much more harsh 0/-1/-3/-6, drastically reducing the relative effectiveness of the Improved Range Finder modification from Arsenal.

How does that reduce the effectiveness? Oh, because it was a fixed bonus?

Sure, reduce the chances for making the shot for the guy with a dice pool of 4 to start with. But not really compromise the average Deer/Elk Hunter using a scope.



I figured someone would mention thresholds. I'm working on that very thing right now. It's tough to find a balance between making the shots too easy and making them so hard that the 15 dice pool Samurai can't make them even under ideal situations.

The way Scopes work is damned annoying as well. I recently did some range shooting with a .223 Panther DPMS and a 14.5x Leupold Scope and even from a benchrest position, I got a lot of reticule bounce when I so much as breathed wrong. Yes, scopes make long-range targets easier to hit than iron sights, but they don't magically make 600 meter shots a piece of cake.

Well, shooting at targets is a bit different than shooting at something that is shooting back at you. Negative modifiers just for use.

-Chrysalis

That's why long range shooting is as much an art as a science, because it's not frequently completely repeatable. Breathing and muscle control, especially in the firing hand, are EXTREMELY important. Breathing is a major training item for snipers. Was that your first time using a scope at any meaningful range?


Shooting back at you... I don't think there's a modifier for it at all.

Now, put this in perspective: a trained sniper (Ex S.E.A.L.) picked up an Israeli 5.59mm Tavor and using just the reflex sight standing unbraced put three single shots into the head and torso of a man-silhouette at over three hundred meters. The range officer had been a bit snide up to that point, but after those cold-bore shots, he was much more respectful. Funny, that. It's doable, but it takes skill and a LOT of practice. Like I said in another thread: high skill levels (5 and 6) should be EXPECTED to do things like that regularly.

In RL, yes! In Shadowrun, not so much.

By the Rules:
1. If the target is at 600 meters and is shooting back with any small arm that is less than a "sniper rifle", he CANNOT hit me.
2. Even if the target is firing back at me with a sniper rifle, as long as I'm not using full defense, I suffer zero dice penalties...even if I'm making Reaction Defense tests against his shots.

The point I was trying to make is that IRL™ a human-sized, stationary steel plate is still almost impossible to hit while standing up, unsupported, and using iron sights. Shadowrun makes it too easy.

I have this problem: I keep confusing RL with Shadowrun.

I still think that if something is dangerous at 600 meters, I most likely will try to make sure it dies with the first shot.

-Chrysalis

I've done a fair bit of of shooting with 3x and 6x Scopes, usually at targets under 200 meters. In the Army, I did some iron sight shooting at up to 300 meters, but most of that was on a qualification range. In our training engagements, most of the time I was shooting at targets under 100m, and usually at 50. So while I'm familiar with using a scope, that was my first time shooting something as powerful as a 14.5x scope. I didn't care for it. We were shooting clay pigeons (4" diameter clay discs for those who haven't heard of the term) that we had laid out on 100m, 200m, and 300m berms. While the pigeons were easy to spot with the scope, even at 300m, I wasn't ready for how "jumpy" the scope was. Honestly, I think I would have fared better with a 6x scope. But it was fun, nonetheless.




First off, I enjoy Future Weapons too, but Mack is a f***ing douchebag. Moving on...

Putting 5.56 rounds into a 300m man-sized target with a red-dot equipped rifle while standing up isn't really that hard. At our 200m berm, I was plugging an 8"x8" steel plate with an Aimpoint equipped AR-15. I think I probably hit 9 out of every 10 shots, and I'm hardly what you would consider a skill of 5 or 6. I'm sure Mack can out-shoot me, but he makes a lot of things on that show sound like he is doing the impossible, when what he is doing is certainly on the routine side for someone who is former SpecOps.

And for the record, he put 1 shot on the target at 300 meters, not 3. And if you watch the target, his shot lands less than an inch from the outside edge of the target. See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3qQB4b4Pgo
1 minute and 57 seconds in

While you're at it, at approx 16 seconds into the video, he calls the M16 a "machine gun". WTF? I've met Airforce cooks that know better than to call the M16 a "machine gun". I know he's reading a script, but have some professional pride, for Christsake.

There is a modifier for being shot at- its called "Attacker Firing from Cover" and if you aren't using it... well good luck with that.

As far as scopes go, I think its one of those things where there just isn't enough "resolution" in the system to accurately represent all the variables. If you feel like its overly simplistic you could always create levels of Vision Mag that correspond to SR4 modifiers (+0, -1, -2, -3) and then use the SR4A modifiers (+0, -1, -3, -6) such that even a top of the line scope with Vision Mag won't negate all modifiers at very long ranges.

Most of the time I bring this up, I hear
"Cover? Cover? You want me to waste an action grabbing cover? I'll go first and stunbolt/split 10 shot kill 3/ fire a grenade them/order my drones on them."
And with six fast players, I have to throw mounds of goons at them just to challenge them to first pass kills.

That being said, everyone at the table likes this style of play for 4A and we appreciate that others may want to grab cover, as we do in other systems.

And don't even get me started on the player in the Sunday game who has a gyro in his arm.

Ranged combat in 4th is a game of "find the modifiers". Apply others. Pollution, in most areas, is so bad that the smog should count as Fog at 600 Meters.


BlueMax
/ and on the nights we have 7, fuggetaboutit

Sort of. You might be shooting from prone. Then again, you might not have been spotted, and just need to make one shot, against a stationary, unaware target. Even those shots are tough IRL™.





That's not a bad idea. Though I am liking the use of thresholds more and more. Right now, I'm running some numbers with the following:

Range/Threshold

Short/0
Medium/2
Long/4
Extreme/6

One other thing I'm playing with is bipods/benchrest. Right now, I have a bipod not granting any RC, but instead allowing you to double the bonus you get from Take Aim actions. Those extra dice come in real handy when trying to hit those high thresholds.

Also, I have Scopes lowering the thresholds by their rating, rather than shifting the Range Cat. So even with a Rating 3 Scope, you still have a threshold of 3 for an extreme range shot.

You forgot a key modifier that should pertain to all shots in Seattle (And Vancouver if anyone ever plays there.).

What is it?

Rain of course! Nothing like a few raindrops on a scope to screw up a shot. Even with iron sights, it'll reduce visibility by a great deal.

Anyhow, it's Cyberpunk. It's always raining. And that annoying, stinging rain that doesn't clean out anything but makes your life miserable nonetheless. And don't even think about the pollutants in it!

Also, take into consideration that you might not HAVE 600 metres of clear line of sight. In a forest/jungle (The trees!)? City (Crowd/cars/curving streets/buildings/signs/AR Distractions)? Plains (Well, OK, here you have have a few MILES of LoS! And can watch your dog run away for three days straight)?

Other than that... Good shooting!

Oh, and FYI, ruleswise, I consider any "Sniper Rifle" to be one with a "Match Grade" barrel, while hunting rifles are just the type you get a Kong-WalMart. I'd increase the price of bullets for said rifles as well to get the best use out of them.

Does SR differentiate between firing standing up, unsupported and firing prone, or other body positions?

Sadly, no. You've got the same dice pool for a single shot lying with a spotter as you do kneeling by a nicely-shaped wall of rubble or hanging by your knees. While nobody would blink at a GM assigning a negative modifier to the latter situation, by RAW (as I know you're a RAWdog), you're golden.

The way you make scopes work for long range (at least for me, in RL) is to use a bipod and rear bag. So the rifle is largely isolated from my breathing.

Scopes have all sorts of issues that are not reflected in SR, and the mechanism that they chose to use to provide an game mechanic is just awful.

The other huge issues are that movement of the shooter is greatly underrated at range (nobody can make a 600 yard shot at a run, 5 yards isn't that hard.), movement of the target isn't related to range (shooting a moving target at 5 feet is a lot different that 500 yards), and there is no benefit for shooting from a stable position, like prone. In fact, there is a disadvantage from shooting from prone as it's most often done.

It doesn't rain that much in Seattle. Heck, every time I go it's sunny for a week! Guarantee it (I did once, as I was getting off the plane, told a guy "it'll be sunny all week, always is when I'm here" and it was).

Though the last time I was there it rained. A lot. Our hotel actually lost power about 20 minutes before we showed up. Admittedly it was March-ish and not July, and my mood wasn't bright and sunny--first time being in Seattle visiting grandparents and actually not wanting to be there.

It was raining today, but its the first we've had in quite a while. This time of year is actually quite nice. Its the Sept thru May part of the year that sucks.

That it may be IRL, but this is cyberpunk so it's gonna train 99% of story time.

4 DP reduced to 1.

You know, while you might succeed 1 out of 3 shots with 1 DP. You also critically botch 1 out of 6 shots.


Shadowrun works strangely at really low DP.

If we are talking realism, I should be missing 6 times, but not have my sniper rifle blow up in my face or the gun jamming or whatever critical botch would do.

That only works if my games are set in Seattle. But what if I'm running something in Libya (Desert Wars), The Sudan, Somalia, or Arizona? The game mechanics shouldn't break just because I choose to run my games outside of one single city.




Again, see my comment above.




I've thought about writing up something for Match Grade ammo, but I haven't been able to come up with something satisfactory.

You know, I re-read that part of my post and realized it did not come across at all how I meant it. It should have read "The way Scopes work IN SHADOWRUN is damned annoying as well. They are TOO good. Adding a scope IRL doesn't magically turn a 500m shot into a 50m shot." AND THEN I should have gone into my experience with the higher-power scope.




Amen, ma brotha.



Yup, all concerns that I am working on house rules to address. I've got a lot of theory, but haven't been able to put much of my rules into practice.

There is something off about Mack in Future Weapons. I wonder how many years was he actually in the SEALs and how much of that was sitting in a base playing cards. I noticed a few times he makes basic weapon safety mistakes. The whole show anyways is a glorified running advert for new weapon systems, most of them not adding anything new.

The whole weapon mod system is crap, like the vehicle modification rules. Like adding a hip brace is going to give mr a recoil modification unless I am firing a M2 in an AA role. But as I said I have problems that RL is clouding my Shadowrun rules knowledge.

1 nuyen for a match grade bullet, gives you +1 modifier, similar to a take aim modifer.

Just curious..... do you consider a Bow wielded by a 15 strength troll a small arm?

I'm glad I'm not the only person who has noticed that. I even went so far as to do some research on him to find out if the ex-SEAL stuff is legit. From what I found, yes, he was an honest to God Navy SEAL, serving about 10 years...part of that as an instructor. Still, he does make a lot of amateur mistakes, and spouts some inane crap. If I was a SEAL, I'd find him embarrassing.



Yeah. I'm generally REALLY good at suspending my disbelief, and I can even understand that reality doesn't always make for fun or workable game mechanics, but sometimes the SR firearms crap just chaps my ass.




How about +1 die for shots beyond Medium Range?

"Small Arm"


Yes, I would consider it a "Small Arm". And at 600 yards, it would probably take about two combat rounds to even reach me. Even a 90-year old in a wheelchair would have little to fear from an arrow that takes 6 seconds to hit him.

You know, a lot of people seem to be missing the point. Yes there are all sorts of environmental conditions that can add to the difficulty of making a long range shot. I'm well aware of these.

But the point I'm trying to make is that, even in ideal conditions, ideal weather, ideal temperatures, with no wind, a 600/800/1000 meter shot is FREAKING CHALLENGING. In Shadowrun, all you need is a Sniper Rifle and a Rating 3 Scope and now the shot is as easy as if the target were standing only 20 meters away.

Even though it doesn't come up often, even in my games, I want those sorts of shots to be challenging, even for the gun-bunnies. I don't want characters to be able to easily make 500 meter shots with an unscoped Assault Rifle while on the move. I don't want the team's former Marine Sniper to be able to easily bullseye the 2-foot diameter roto-drone at 1200 meters while shooting off-hand and hanging out the back of a speeding GMC Bulldog. I want those sorts of shots to be HARD.

600 yards, six seconds == 100 yards a second. Which is right about dead perfect for a bow today in 2009 drawn by a human with a 70 lb pull. Sadly, for the Troll, the physics are non-linearly against him. That is to say even if you double the pull effort, you get only a minimum bump in speed.

I applaud your accuracy sir.

BlueMax

I have to ask because I didn't see it, but where in the rules does it say that bow projectiles take more than 1 round to travel from point A to point B?

Consequently, if a troll with a bow is 600m away, how likely are you to even see/notice he's shooting at you.

It doesn't, actually. But flight-time for an arrow to reach a 600 meter target is going to be in the ~6 second range, or maybe more. The fact that the Shadowrun Developers neglected to create a rule for that doesn't change the fact it will take about that long. Even if fired from a bow created for a 15 STR Troll, your arrow will still have about 1/10th the initial velocity of a good Sniper Rifle round and will take some time to reach it's target.




Probably about as likely as he is to see/notice me in the first place. And if I'm using a scope and he isn't, advantage me.

Even if I don't see him, the chances of me being in the EXACT same place 6 seconds after he fires his shot are fairly slim.

So basically, you have to house rule that in.

Since by RAW, a troll with 15 strength could shoot someone ~800m away using just a bow and arrow with just a single success. I agree that is stupid.

Edit: The same 15 str troll using a 15 str bow would also deal 17P damage..... albeit with no AP. The best damage a sniper rifle can do before net hits to damage is 11P, unless there's a +3 damage ammo that I don't know about. I'm ignoring anything like called shots, just a simple hit.



So with archery, it follows a logarithmic curve.

Well that would explain the funny looks I get at Cabelas when I keep asking them to install a smartlink on my deer rifle.

Consistency is the key. Benchrest is neat, but prone with a sandsock off a bipod is really the way to go. You don't get that annoying bounce; everything feels more controlled. Doing everything the same from cleaning (two wet patches, two passes with brush, two dry) to how you hold the rifle is essential.

If you get straight behind the gun, the recoil will be vertical. When the bipod leaves the ground, it will land in the same spot (or very close to it). From the shooter's perspective: 1) Look, breathe, pull, 2) BANG and short period of visual blackness, 3) work bolt and 4) look again and target will be somewhere in the reticle, usually a little bit right or left. If the distance is greater than 400 yards, you'll probably see the bullet strike (with 308 Winchester or similar ballistics). The "visual distance" changes depending upon velocity (time to target). If you get on that target ASAP after recoil, you can see it hit. However, a spotter is still better.



Actually, the right scope will make them a piece of cake under controlled range conditions. It also depends upon the target and goal. Meaning, hitting a piece of steel the size of a human torso 18"w x24"h does make it easy. The first time I picked up one USMC 8541's custom AR-15 with PFI 660LR scope (http://www.rapidreticle.com/600lr.htm) I hit the target 28 out of 30 times. Two heavy gusts blew those 62 grain bullets off target. My results would have been vastly different in a real combat situation and I would have been very happy with a 20% hit rate.

But, turn that into a combat situation and "easy" goes to "hard". The "one shot-one kill" thing is so much BS (per Shep8541 on longrangeinternational.com) because of little things like mortars going off, people stomping around, tanks shooting and movement of the target. Yes, sometimes it does work out nicely, but in Fallujah, it was a bitch.

If you're going for tiny groups and score, the problem changes quite a bit.

In Shadowrun, it's clearly going to be set for a higher standard. It's all about choosing the gear for the game your character is playing. I can see necessity in extreme levels of precision since the character may only get one shot. That means level 3 vision magnification, level 3 vision enhancement (for finding things), smart links, precision rifles, match ammo and a spotter.

Spotters should add to the shooter's dice pool. Every success the spotter gets should add to the shooter's roll. A good spotter will call wind, mirage and distance correctly, as well as identify targets and have a good drawing of the area. He'll tell the shooter to make some adjustments. If the spotter called the variables correctly, the bullet will strike the target.

Dicewise, I would take the view of how many dice will it take to make a success? I believe it's typically three for one. If that's the case, then thresholding makes sense. Any hits past the threshold add to damage; those used by the threshold do not count.

What you're not a troll??




-Chrysalis

Still, there are things which make me cringe when I see him and the things that come out of his mouth.




Balanced and works. Works for me.

Some stuff I came up with at lunch:

Variables: mirage, lighting, wind, angle (vertical from shooter to target)

Random Conditions:

Wind: -1 per 5 mph
Mirage: -1
Light: -1 for nonadvantageous conditions
Angle: -1 if angle >45 degrees
Spotter: +1 per hit on spotting roll (use longarms skill)

Random wind: Roll one d6. 1 = Negligible wind, 2-6: Roll 6-x dice for wind. Each hit (max 5) represents a -1 dice pool modifier.

While wind does affect bullets at short range (100 yards), the effects won't be noticed by the the bad guy if you're shooting at the head or torso. As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't bother with wind rolls until 400 yards or so unless the wind was at level 5.

Even a 20mph wind can move a shot (dependent on the weapon, of course) one full meter away at short distances.
But I liked those modifiers.

I am not a sniper expert, but I also noticed that extreme ranges were a cakewalk.
I have been experimenting with a mixture of modifier and threshold.
My current ratio is 1/3. 1/3 of the SR4A range modifier for any ranged attack is a threshold.

SR4A Dice Pool modifiers for range:
+0/-1/-3/-6

Dice Pool:
+0/-1/-2/-4
Threshold:
0/ 0/ 1/ 2

Scopes only reduce the dice pool modifiers
as scopes only solve part of the problem.

This is working for me so far as it is simple enough to apply
and adds some more granularity to the ranged combat rules.

The players generally avoid extreme range now.

A 20 mph wind will only move a rifle round about 4 inches at 100 meters. I think you are perhaps assuming the bullet has the same density as air, and thereby will move as much?

A 20 mph wind will definitely not affect your shots by a meter at short distances.

Agreed. I've never found benchrest as naturally comfortable as prone with a good bipod.




I agree that shooting steel at a range is generally a different beast than shooting in a combat zone, but what about those long range shots when you AREN'T taking fire and there isn't crap exploding all around or return fire kicking up dirt near your position? Those shots are difficult too, though not nearly as tough.




All of that makes sense. Where is breaks down is the equipment turns the 1000m shot into something a guy standing up can do 99% of the time, even if he isn't particularly well trained.




Yeah, that's what I'm working on. Thresholds for range (modified slightly by Scopes), with everything else being modifiers to DP. Though I do have that a good Prone Supported Position/Bipod nets you double the dice you get from Take AIM actions.





Ummm, yeah. I TOTALLY agree. However, by canon, a 15 STR with a matched bow can shoot an arrow 900 meters. I wasn't addressing the asshatery of that particular rule, but what it would be like to have an arrow fired at you from 600m out.





Agreed.

Nevermind, move along, there is nothing to see here . I had taken this into account, I've just missed one order of magnitude.

I think you'll be pleased to know that a 15 STR troll is no longer capable of having a matched bow; SR4A capped bow strength at 12. Still capable of making a 700 meter shot with nearly the same armor-penetrating power as a Panther, but no longer will 20 STR cyberzombies all be toting bows that fire Thor Shots.

I agree there's a lot of stupid rules in Shadowrun.

By canon a bow tailored to a 15 strength troll is stronger (imo) than any sniper rifle. <-- That should throw up red flags.

Using the followings assumptions.
Barrett Sniper Rifle: 9P, -4AP
APDS Ammunition: -4AP
Target's Armor is twice Target's Body
3:1 trade off for successes on damage resist checks
No extra damage from net hits

The rifle will deal stun damage to a target with 10 body or more.
The rifle will deal 0 damage to a target with 12 body or more.

The bow will deal stun damage to a target with 9 body or more.
The bow will deal 0 damage to a target with 17 body or more.

If you want a true simulator of RL^TM, go play GURPS

Which is why creating houserules is so fun

I adjusted my numbers to reflect that. The bow still has ranges on par with the sniper rifle....

The rifle will deal stun damage to a target with 10 body or more.
The rifle will deal 0 damage to a target with 12 body or more.

The bow will deal stun damage to a target with 5 body or more. (used to be 9)
The bow will deal 0 damage to a target with 14 body or more. (used to be 17)

It still seems like the bow is too potent, and I didn't read in depth enough about adjusted stat arrows for bows, I was just using the raw bow numbers.

In my opinion, the biggest thing with SR sniping is that in any urban adventure you rarely get a 600m shot unless you deliberately planned a situation to your advantage. Once that happens, there's no reason you wouldn't have the rest of the character's situation maxed to allow the shot. At that point, I find GM fiat ("you're at -6 from hosing up your planning") is the only way to enforce consistency. Barring that, make, and probably hit, the shot. If you got to such a nice situation, kudos to you!

Even if you did, once you fire the first round your advantages are going away quickly. Unless they are goobs, the enemy will seek cover. "Cover," from 600 meters, means you won't see them, and unless your GM is nice to you regarding blind fire through cover, you won't hit them.

If you are actually in some situation where you have clear and unobstructed fields of fire for huge distances and they have no way to shoot back at you, well, those situations make snipers happy people in real life, too.

Not in SR....