Just curious..... do you consider a Bow wielded by a 15 strength troll a small arm?

I'm glad I'm not the only person who has noticed that. I even went so far as to do some research on him to find out if the ex-SEAL stuff is legit. From what I found, yes, he was an honest to God Navy SEAL, serving about 10 years...part of that as an instructor. Still, he does make a lot of amateur mistakes, and spouts some inane crap. If I was a SEAL, I'd find him embarrassing.



Yeah. I'm generally REALLY good at suspending my disbelief, and I can even understand that reality doesn't always make for fun or workable game mechanics, but sometimes the SR firearms crap just chaps my ass.




How about +1 die for shots beyond Medium Range?

"Small Arm"


Yes, I would consider it a "Small Arm". And at 600 yards, it would probably take about two combat rounds to even reach me. Even a 90-year old in a wheelchair would have little to fear from an arrow that takes 6 seconds to hit him.

You know, a lot of people seem to be missing the point. Yes there are all sorts of environmental conditions that can add to the difficulty of making a long range shot. I'm well aware of these.

But the point I'm trying to make is that, even in ideal conditions, ideal weather, ideal temperatures, with no wind, a 600/800/1000 meter shot is FREAKING CHALLENGING. In Shadowrun, all you need is a Sniper Rifle and a Rating 3 Scope and now the shot is as easy as if the target were standing only 20 meters away.

Even though it doesn't come up often, even in my games, I want those sorts of shots to be challenging, even for the gun-bunnies. I don't want characters to be able to easily make 500 meter shots with an unscoped Assault Rifle while on the move. I don't want the team's former Marine Sniper to be able to easily bullseye the 2-foot diameter roto-drone at 1200 meters while shooting off-hand and hanging out the back of a speeding GMC Bulldog. I want those sorts of shots to be HARD.

600 yards, six seconds == 100 yards a second. Which is right about dead perfect for a bow today in 2009 drawn by a human with a 70 lb pull. Sadly, for the Troll, the physics are non-linearly against him. That is to say even if you double the pull effort, you get only a minimum bump in speed.

I applaud your accuracy sir.

BlueMax

I have to ask because I didn't see it, but where in the rules does it say that bow projectiles take more than 1 round to travel from point A to point B?

Consequently, if a troll with a bow is 600m away, how likely are you to even see/notice he's shooting at you.

It doesn't, actually. But flight-time for an arrow to reach a 600 meter target is going to be in the ~6 second range, or maybe more. The fact that the Shadowrun Developers neglected to create a rule for that doesn't change the fact it will take about that long. Even if fired from a bow created for a 15 STR Troll, your arrow will still have about 1/10th the initial velocity of a good Sniper Rifle round and will take some time to reach it's target.




Probably about as likely as he is to see/notice me in the first place. And if I'm using a scope and he isn't, advantage me.

Even if I don't see him, the chances of me being in the EXACT same place 6 seconds after he fires his shot are fairly slim.

So basically, you have to house rule that in.

Since by RAW, a troll with 15 strength could shoot someone ~800m away using just a bow and arrow with just a single success. I agree that is stupid.

Edit: The same 15 str troll using a 15 str bow would also deal 17P damage..... albeit with no AP. The best damage a sniper rifle can do before net hits to damage is 11P, unless there's a +3 damage ammo that I don't know about. I'm ignoring anything like called shots, just a simple hit.



So with archery, it follows a logarithmic curve.

Well that would explain the funny looks I get at Cabelas when I keep asking them to install a smartlink on my deer rifle.

Consistency is the key. Benchrest is neat, but prone with a sandsock off a bipod is really the way to go. You don't get that annoying bounce; everything feels more controlled. Doing everything the same from cleaning (two wet patches, two passes with brush, two dry) to how you hold the rifle is essential.

If you get straight behind the gun, the recoil will be vertical. When the bipod leaves the ground, it will land in the same spot (or very close to it). From the shooter's perspective: 1) Look, breathe, pull, 2) BANG and short period of visual blackness, 3) work bolt and 4) look again and target will be somewhere in the reticle, usually a little bit right or left. If the distance is greater than 400 yards, you'll probably see the bullet strike (with 308 Winchester or similar ballistics). The "visual distance" changes depending upon velocity (time to target). If you get on that target ASAP after recoil, you can see it hit. However, a spotter is still better.



Actually, the right scope will make them a piece of cake under controlled range conditions. It also depends upon the target and goal. Meaning, hitting a piece of steel the size of a human torso 18"w x24"h does make it easy. The first time I picked up one USMC 8541's custom AR-15 with PFI 660LR scope (http://www.rapidreticle.com/600lr.htm) I hit the target 28 out of 30 times. Two heavy gusts blew those 62 grain bullets off target. My results would have been vastly different in a real combat situation and I would have been very happy with a 20% hit rate.

But, turn that into a combat situation and "easy" goes to "hard". The "one shot-one kill" thing is so much BS (per Shep8541 on longrangeinternational.com) because of little things like mortars going off, people stomping around, tanks shooting and movement of the target. Yes, sometimes it does work out nicely, but in Fallujah, it was a bitch.

If you're going for tiny groups and score, the problem changes quite a bit.

In Shadowrun, it's clearly going to be set for a higher standard. It's all about choosing the gear for the game your character is playing. I can see necessity in extreme levels of precision since the character may only get one shot. That means level 3 vision magnification, level 3 vision enhancement (for finding things), smart links, precision rifles, match ammo and a spotter.

Spotters should add to the shooter's dice pool. Every success the spotter gets should add to the shooter's roll. A good spotter will call wind, mirage and distance correctly, as well as identify targets and have a good drawing of the area. He'll tell the shooter to make some adjustments. If the spotter called the variables correctly, the bullet will strike the target.

Dicewise, I would take the view of how many dice will it take to make a success? I believe it's typically three for one. If that's the case, then thresholding makes sense. Any hits past the threshold add to damage; those used by the threshold do not count.

What you're not a troll??

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)


-Chrysalis

Still, there are things which make me cringe when I see him and the things that come out of his mouth.




Balanced and works. Works for me.

Some stuff I came up with at lunch:

Variables: mirage, lighting, wind, angle (vertical from shooter to target)

Random Conditions:

Wind: -1 per 5 mph
Mirage: -1
Light: -1 for nonadvantageous conditions
Angle: -1 if angle >45 degrees
Spotter: +1 per hit on spotting roll (use longarms skill)

Random wind: Roll one d6. 1 = Negligible wind, 2-6: Roll 6-x dice for wind. Each hit (max 5) represents a -1 dice pool modifier.

While wind does affect bullets at short range (100 yards), the effects won't be noticed by the the bad guy if you're shooting at the head or torso. As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't bother with wind rolls until 400 yards or so unless the wind was at level 5.

Even a 20mph wind can move a shot (dependent on the weapon, of course) one full meter away at short distances.
But I liked those modifiers.

I am not a sniper expert, but I also noticed that extreme ranges were a cakewalk.
I have been experimenting with a mixture of modifier and threshold.
My current ratio is 1/3. 1/3 of the SR4A range modifier for any ranged attack is a threshold.

SR4A Dice Pool modifiers for range:
+0/-1/-3/-6

Dice Pool:
+0/-1/-2/-4
Threshold:
0/ 0/ 1/ 2

Scopes only reduce the dice pool modifiers
as scopes only solve part of the problem.

This is working for me so far as it is simple enough to apply
and adds some more granularity to the ranged combat rules.

The players generally avoid extreme range now.

A 20 mph wind will only move a rifle round about 4 inches at 100 meters. I think you are perhaps assuming the bullet has the same density as air, and thereby will move as much?

A 20 mph wind will definitely not affect your shots by a meter at short distances.

Agreed. I've never found benchrest as naturally comfortable as prone with a good bipod.




I agree that shooting steel at a range is generally a different beast than shooting in a combat zone, but what about those long range shots when you AREN'T taking fire and there isn't crap exploding all around or return fire kicking up dirt near your position? Those shots are difficult too, though not nearly as tough.




All of that makes sense. Where is breaks down is the equipment turns the 1000m shot into something a guy standing up can do 99% of the time, even if he isn't particularly well trained.




Yeah, that's what I'm working on. Thresholds for range (modified slightly by Scopes), with everything else being modifiers to DP. Though I do have that a good Prone Supported Position/Bipod nets you double the dice you get from Take AIM actions.





Ummm, yeah. I TOTALLY agree. However, by canon, a 15 STR with a matched bow can shoot an arrow 900 meters. I wasn't addressing the asshatery of that particular rule, but what it would be like to have an arrow fired at you from 600m out.





Agreed.

Nevermind, move along, there is nothing to see here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) . I had taken this into account, I've just missed one order of magnitude.

I think you'll be pleased to know that a 15 STR troll is no longer capable of having a matched bow; SR4A capped bow strength at 12. Still capable of making a 700 meter shot with nearly the same armor-penetrating power as a Panther, but no longer will 20 STR cyberzombies all be toting bows that fire Thor Shots.

I agree there's a lot of stupid rules in Shadowrun.

By canon a bow tailored to a 15 strength troll is stronger (imo) than any sniper rifle. <-- That should throw up red flags.

Using the followings assumptions.
Barrett Sniper Rifle: 9P, -4AP
APDS Ammunition: -4AP
Target's Armor is twice Target's Body
3:1 trade off for successes on damage resist checks
No extra damage from net hits

The rifle will deal stun damage to a target with 10 body or more.
The rifle will deal 0 damage to a target with 12 body or more.

The bow will deal stun damage to a target with 9 body or more.
The bow will deal 0 damage to a target with 17 body or more.

If you want a true simulator of RL^TM, go play GURPS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Which is why creating houserules is so fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I adjusted my numbers to reflect that. The bow still has ranges on par with the sniper rifle....

The rifle will deal stun damage to a target with 10 body or more.
The rifle will deal 0 damage to a target with 12 body or more.

The bow will deal stun damage to a target with 5 body or more. (used to be 9)
The bow will deal 0 damage to a target with 14 body or more. (used to be 17)

It still seems like the bow is too potent, and I didn't read in depth enough about adjusted stat arrows for bows, I was just using the raw bow numbers.

In my opinion, the biggest thing with SR sniping is that in any urban adventure you rarely get a 600m shot unless you deliberately planned a situation to your advantage. Once that happens, there's no reason you wouldn't have the rest of the character's situation maxed to allow the shot. At that point, I find GM fiat ("you're at -6 from hosing up your planning") is the only way to enforce consistency. Barring that, make, and probably hit, the shot. If you got to such a nice situation, kudos to you!

Even if you did, once you fire the first round your advantages are going away quickly. Unless they are goobs, the enemy will seek cover. "Cover," from 600 meters, means you won't see them, and unless your GM is nice to you regarding blind fire through cover, you won't hit them.

If you are actually in some situation where you have clear and unobstructed fields of fire for huge distances and they have no way to shoot back at you, well, those situations make snipers happy people in real life, too.

Not in SR....