When you have a 'bow' that requires/can support up to 15 strength, isn't that more along the line of a ballista?

I mean it's a weapon that requires strength of two of the strongest human. At that point, it's closer than a siege weapon and would justify its higher DV than a sniper rifle. The only problem being the rules doesn't recognize it as anything different from a regular bow and there aren't any penalty to hiding, carrying, or using the gigantic bow.

Also, TheOneRonin, no comment on how at 1 DP, you have 1/3 chance of success but also 1/6 chance of critical botch and only critical botch?

While the sniper's advantages would go away in short order, it's important to remember there needs to be more than just the sniper. Supporting teams are needed up close to flush the enemy out of cover. Additionally, a properly prepared sniper will have several positions prepared, including an escape route. But, that's more of a discussion of tactics.

Back to figuring out a way to make sniping a bit more difficult for the skill level 1 characters.

***

I like the idea of increasing the modifier for aiming.

***

Let's do some math using the rules as written.

MOA the Street Samurai has an Ares-Accuracy International sniper rifle. It's customized heavily with computer in the scope, vision mag 3, vision enhance 3 (see into those shadow at 1,000 meters...yeah baby!!), smartlink with ballistic compensator, angle adjustment, image link, photographic storage, thermo, low light, flare comp and anti-glare filtering. It's a bolt action rifle, 10 round capacity, custom stock and grip, stabilizer and beer can holder.

The shooter is highly skilled with a 5 (7) in longarms. He's cybered up with a high Agility of 10. Here are his adds:

Base pool =17
Smartlink +2
Enhanced Articulation +1
Vision Mag +3 makes makes it Short Range

Total Base Dice Pool = 20

Range:

+0 0-150
-1 151-350
-2 351-800
-3 801-1500

Spotter adds his successes to the pool of the shooter. Let's say he's also highly skilled with longarms of 5(7). Since it doesn't make sense to use Agility, let's substitute Intuition for perception based tests. Total pool is 10. Let's just say he buys two successes.

MOA's dice pool = 22

Target wanders into view and is standing in an open lot. He's smoking a cigarette. Range is 800 meters (long range).

RAW 4th Edition says that with vision mag, neither the target nor the shooter can move to gain the Short Range bonus. MOA zeroes in and aims for three simple actions (+2 total since the first round is for "locking on").

Scenarios:

1) MOA's pool now contains 24 dice. He just buys six successes. Target doesn't get a dodge since it's a surprise attack. Damage is 14P.

2) Let's add some modifiers.

Target prone: -3

Called Shot options:

A) Bypass armor: Modifier equals the ballistic armor of the target. An armor jacket yields a penalty of EIGHT.
B) Vital Attack: Increase DMG by 1-4, but suffer a 1-4 DP modifier.
C) Other options not really needed

Target partial cover: -2

Visibility: Light fog -1

Target moves, so the -2 range modifer is applied.

MOA's DP is now down by at least 8. Called shot options:

A) +4 DMG: -12 = 10 dice
B) Bypass armor jacket (8/6): -16 = 6 dice

If he skips the called shot, then MOA has 14 dice.

If he manages to aim for a simple action or two, he gets +2 or so (12/8/16 dice).

Suddenly, that's not too bad (in terms of rules)!!! I think that the rules are actually fairly well written.

It's a scope of the future that uses bulshitium and unobtanium weaves in its gyroscopic stabilizer and distance confangler. And when you confangle distance 600 meters is just like 50 meters.



I do want the team's former Marine Sniper to be able to easily bullseye the 2-foot diameter roto-drone at 1200 meters while shooting off-hand and hanging out the back of a speeding GMC Bulldog. I want those shots to be challenging but enough within the realms of possibility that the player says heck yeah I'm going for it.

The rules aren't perfect and 4A makes them a bit better for non scope shots, but its a fairly good system
On a side note your original example doesn't bother me. The capability to shoot a random object that is just sitting there doing nothing one time in three isn't something I care if the system models well. At 1 die that shooter will have a hard time hitting anything aware of his shooting and that works for me.

Suggestion:

Range Modifier is representative of complications over the distance the bullet must travel, based on caliber, weapon design, etc. Thus, Range Modifiers cannot be reduced with the use of a scope.

Distance Modifier is a visual modifier (applying to Perception & Combat tests as normal), representative of the greater difficulty associated with spotting targets at long ranges. Distance Modifiers can be reduced with the use of a scope.



Now, we just need to set up appropriate Distance Modifiers to use. What should the Perception penalty at 50m be? 500m? 5,000m?

I keep thinking that if I am firing at 600-1000m range, I am most likely set up in a bunkered observation post, with a centrally located free swiveling tripod with a 3-12 x56 SSG scope on a WA-2000. I have personally scouted out the area and I know every turn and hiding place. My spotter is on binoculars keeping me appriased of anyone else wanting to come close. First shot is a warning shot, second shot hits.

If there is an enemy at 5000 meters and they are a threat, they must be manning a howitzer. In which case it is not about the lone sniper, but now my mad radio skillz in calling for artillery or an aerial strike, if I can see him at 5000 meters, he certainly can see me.

Wait... a troll... hmm.. uh... uh oh.... just checked my height, weight, and looked in the mirror. Uh, got the weight, close on the height (definitely elf/ork height), and while my wife says otherwise, I think my looks might be close too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Sorry - didn't meant to seem like a troll - I was just bored and found some humor in the real-life comment, especially considering I've actually been having trouble with my new deer rifle's stock bedding & lightweight barrel, and had been thinking 'wouldn't it be cool if there really were smartlinks for these things'.

Besides, I was looking for a good excuse to make a first post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Ummmm...sure, if you say so.




Ummmmmm.....

Here's my previous house rule proposal about making long range shooting more difficult.

Holy double posting, Batman!

Excellent first post by the way, and welcome to the forums (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Try not shaving for a few months, I am sure your wife will think you are a troll.

Sounds like an issue of poor quality in the rifle. Do you have trouble with off-mark shots in your groupings?

I prefer a heavyweight groove bored barrel. But then again a smart link would be great, more time forum posting ^_^

I tried the full beard, no beard, and have settled back in for a goatee.

Well, it was a used one, and the first shot goes 3" right at 100. Second and third shots are dead on. Barrel is touching the stock when cold, but can't check it hot - lightweight barrels and WSM's get really freaking hot after 3 shots. Will probably just have bedding re-done and see what happens - still have 3 months til deer season.

Using a scope is a take aim action, to shoulder and steady the rifle.
As long as the target and the shooter don't move the shooter gets the bonus.

Thus it looks like the shooter is in the range.

All of the take aim qualifiers do apply.

Agreed, I think the system is fine to make those WTFBBQSAUCE type of shots that are just plain cool. One of the things I would want my snipers to be able to do is at least be able to accurately put a bullet through the major engine block of vehicles while in chase combat, if not even possibly putting a bullet through a driver's head. Add Awesome Points if the sniper is firing from a stationary position as the rest of the team is speeding past him. If we have modern supercomputers in a commlink sized package, there's no reason why smart systems would be able to account for the varying wind speed and other environmental differences.

I think the issue is more one of that the GMs may be afraid of having characters that literally sit way out of danger yet are engaged in the combat and dropping people left and right without the enemy knowing where the PC sniper is located. What I'm seeing is solutions to nerf the hell out of sniping to make it an unattractive choice rather than tailor the situations to make sniping an unattractive choice. I generally only favor nerfing as an option of last resort, rather than the first instinct.

EDIT: Just to make a clarification, I find nerfing to be an acceptable solution in an uncontrolled environment. An uncontrolled environment is one in which the people making and/or running the game are incapable of directly influencing the player's behavior by presentation of the environment. MMO games, for example, have a static environment that doesn't change. It's far simpler and more effective to nerf rather than adjust the environment to make the undesirable occurrence undesirable to the players.

If players are are drawn to sniping because the environment the GM gives them is conducive to sniping, bring the action indoors where the usage of sniper rifles is highly ineffective, or make the outdoor action over so large an area that sniping isn't as desirable. Shadowrun isn't an MMO where you can just respec your skills to something else if the rules suddenly change.

another topic im breaking into way too late.
anywho, if you wanna get real specific if you are a seattelite shadowrunner and you decide to go pack off to libya for whatever reason, remember to re-zero that rifle when you get there and record it in yer dope book. other atmospheric conditions affect the path of the bullet's travel like elevation above sea level, humidity, temperature at time of day, etc. there are so many factors to consider when shooting at range that in order to plot a correct path of bullet drop you need to have a baseline, hence the re-zero. the round will travel differently in libya than it will on beacon hill.

Bravo Four all up in here

of course, if i would take the time to read an entire thread before butting my nose in, id realize that this area of the discussion has been hit on already (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

but sniperism is a thing i can go on and on for hours about. seriously. i went there and got the t-shirt

You should start a "stories" thread.

yeah, so there i was in this OP doing flank security on this block party outer cordon when some gimpy hadji limps across the street dressed like mickey mouse but with a rusted-out PKM... um... in band camp

Did he play with his flute?

So... what's your opinion on the SAKO TRG-42 firing the Lapua .338 magnum?

personally I see no problems how it is handled, first of like any PnP the pool you get from stats and skills are based on a sunny, cloudless day with no wind and a target as still as a statue.

Second Shadowrun is clearly what I like to call "Hollywood rpgs" aka rpg whos rules are designed around event being handle with Hollywood glamour and the characters are the main movie actors so trying to apply deep analyse on breath and snipering is like trying to apply logic to a 1980 action movie, you can but then your brain starts hurting and you just make a mess...a boring mess.

my 2 cents on the whole sniper deal.

you know, your second point there, remmus, is actually what i go for too. i dont want to burden the flow of the game just to see every nuance of something im so drilled in. i dont need to describe to the table that my character fires at the bottom of his breath to maintain a steady sight picture for those precious 3 seconds- its implied. if you really want to spend another minute and a half from this combat scenario rolling dice and want to apply the modifiers for crosswinds down an urban course, go right ahead but the flavor is what really counts.
missing the forest for the trees, as it were.

and the TRG-42 is a superb, fine weapon capable of filling some of the most challenging roles. you can make that thing go any wich way you please. however i feel that the push to .338 on that platform is simply masturbation. you sacrifice weight and magazine capacity for an operationally neglible benefit. 338 is still a fine caliber, in and of itself, i might add.

It would be one thing if people were looking for ways to make sniping more engaging, but that's not what's happening here. It's just a culmination of penalties or thresholds designed purely to make it more difficult rather than engaging. Like I said, I prefer to not see things nerfed, but rather make the said action less appealing.

agreed, I personaly find it better to shape the world around the rules, rather then thr rules around the world.

That makes tons of sense...especially since, you know, by the rules, the best weapon to use when clearing a house is is a sniper rifle.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

I think I'm working towards a little bit of both. I don't want long-range shooting to be difficult because I want to discourage my players from doing it. I want it to be difficult because it SHOULD to be difficult. I also feel like my players should feel an intense sense of accomplishment when hitting that bad-guy who is 1000 meters away and standing on the deck of a moving boat. Instead, it feels like "ho-hum, just another day at the office".