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JTNLANGE
post Sep 8 2009, 03:17 PM
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After seeing some of the threads in here I have one very important question. Do the rules presented in the core books override the main rulebook? I was thinking of the Medkit rules. In Augmentation it states that you can heal total boxes based on skill or medkit which ever is higher. It does not mention this in SR4A. So which is right? Anything from the devs would be appreciated.


Trevor L.
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PBI
post Sep 8 2009, 04:27 PM
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It is a general axiom of gaming and rules sets that later books trump earlier ones unless otherwise specified. Some rules sets explicitly state this (and the SR expansion rules of the varying types have traditionally done so) while others assume the gamer reading the rules understands that expansions modify the core rules.

Also, as a bit of an aside, the term "core" usually refers to the initial book released and anything following that are expansions. In the case of D&D, for example, the core rules consist of 3 books (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual), whereas in Shadowrun, the core rules consist of a single book (with the title "Shadowrun"). Keeping with Shadowrun, Arsenal, for example, is not a core book, but an expansion, as are any of the multitude of the other books dealing with rigging, magic, gear, etc.
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JTNLANGE
post Sep 8 2009, 05:06 PM
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While I agree with you I believe you are mistaken on one point. It lists right on Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion that they are core rulebooks. I would say personally the what is listed in those books trumps what is listed in SR4A unless specifically noted.

Trevor.
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StealthSigma
post Sep 8 2009, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (JTNLANGE @ Sep 8 2009, 01:06 PM) *
While I agree with you I believe you are mistaken on one point. It lists right on Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion that they are core rulebooks. I would say personally the what is listed in those books trumps what is listed in SR4A unless specifically noted.


Are these books required to play Shadowrun? No.

They are not core books. A core book is only those required to play the game. Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion, and Street Magic are not required to play Shadowrun. All you need is one copy of the book titled Shadowrun.
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JTNLANGE
post Sep 8 2009, 05:12 PM
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Your are correct Stealth. I was simply stating that the books say they are core. While you do not need them to play, if you use them I consider them core.

Trevor.
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PBI
post Sep 8 2009, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (JTNLANGE @ Sep 8 2009, 02:06 PM) *
While I agree with you I believe you are mistaken on one point. It lists right on Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion that they are core rulebooks. I would say personally the what is listed in those books trumps what is listed in SR4A unless specifically noted.

Trevor.



Those books are not required to play Shadowrumn, so they aren't core books. If they were labelled as core books, then they were mis-labelled. Some players might consider them to be core books, but the only true core book is SR*.
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RunnerPaul
post Sep 8 2009, 05:25 PM
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Where this gets particularly muddy, however, is that SR4A has been marketed as "fully compatible with all Shadowrun, Fourth Edition books," or as the website puts it in one of the blogposts, "Never has a core rulebook been so fully meshed with its full line of expansion rulebooks". From these statements it's easy to infer that CGL's intent was to only have SR4A supersede basic rules, and leave the expansion rulebooks to remain the source for advanced rules.

This approach breaks down, however, unless you have a copy of the original SR4 to know what the original basic rules being that are now being superseded were in the first place. In the case of medkits, the base rule is unchanged from SR4 to SR4A: "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s rating." What appears in Augmentation is merely a clarification of how this rule is to be applied with regards to medkits that can either substitute for that skill or add dice to the test. While some advanced rules from the expansion books were considered to be significant enough departures from the basic rules that simplified forms of them were rolled into SR4A (e.g. the new magical skills introduced in Street Magic, and the concept of Processor Limit from Unwired, among others) this clarification from Augmentation wasn't one of them.

Medkits aren't the only example though where SR4A's meshing with the expansion books has left some questions. Cracking copy protection is another one. SR4 originally stated that cracking copy protection was a Software + Logic extended test with an interval of 1 hour, and gave a vague range of thresholds. Unwired gave a table of specific thresholds, and referenced back to the core rulebook for the rest of the rules. The new SR4A core rulebook declares cracking copy protection to be an advanced rule that can be found in Unwired.
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TheOOB
post Sep 8 2009, 05:32 PM
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To be fair, Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runner's Companion, and I suspect the catalyst reprinting of Street Magic all say that the book is a core book right on the title. This is because Catalyst uses a differing definition of "Core" than Wizards of the Coast.

The fact is, only the BBB is required to play, but the other books should be considered the authority in their proper field, they where made later and made to be more specific.

That said, all content from any book is as optional as you wish.
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PBI
post Sep 8 2009, 05:53 PM
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CGL can call their books flagglesporks if they want, but they can't change the definition of what a core book is and is not. Convention and custom and practice all define "core" to mean "that which is required to play". The expansions may be highly recommended (in some cases very highly recommended), but that doesn't make them core books unless the rules are changed sufficiently that the game is unplayable without them.
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Bugfoxmaster
post Sep 8 2009, 06:35 PM
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Where does the definition of core you're using come from? Does it really matter what the books are called, or whether core means this or that? All that matters is that only the BBB is required to play, that the other books are taken by Catalyst to be just as important, and that any given GM can basically say 'screw that' with any given information and make up their own shit.
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PBI
post Sep 8 2009, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Sep 8 2009, 02:35 PM) *
Where does the definition of core you're using come from? Does it really matter what the books are called, or whether core means this or that? All that matters is that only the BBB is required to play, that the other books are taken by Catalyst to be just as important, and that any given GM can basically say 'screw that' with any given information and make up their own shit.


You're actually arguing in favour of what I'm saying Bug.

I get my definiton from 30 years of gaming. And, yes, it does matter. Core implies that something is requied to play, whereas if something is not a core rule, it's not required to play. The classic example of core vs non-core would be D&D, where if a group doesn't have a PHB, DMG, and MM, they can't play. With SR, all that is needed is the main book; all the mechanics are in there and nothing else is needed to play. The other books are expansions. They add to the flavour and experience of the game, but a group can play SR just fine if they don't have the expansions. The reverse is not true.
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Muspellsheimr
post Sep 8 2009, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (PBI @ Sep 8 2009, 11:52 AM) *
The classic example of core vs non-core would be D&D, where if a group doesn't have a PHB, DMG, and MM, they can't play.

Bullshit. D&D is easily playable with solely the Players Handbook. The Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide, while part of the Core Rules, are not neccesary for play.

Shadowrun is similar. The base book is all that is neccesary to play, but the 'expansions' are all Core Rulebooks.
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StealthSigma
post Sep 8 2009, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 8 2009, 02:57 PM) *
Bullshit. D&D is easily playable with solely the Players Handbook. The Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide, while part of the Core Rules, are not neccesary for play.

Shadowrun is similar. The base book is all that is neccesary to play, but the 'expansions' are all Core Rulebooks.


You need at least the PHB and MM. Otherwise you cannot play Sorcerers/Wizards since the statistics for their familiars are found in the Monster Manual.

So PHB is fine if all you want to do is play a game where everyone had purely mundane equipment and there's no such things as Ranger companion animals, paladin mounts, or spell caster familiars. Of course I don't admit that 4th edition exists, so who knows what they did with that.

Everything you need to play Shadowrun, and make it exciting, is in SR4. Everything you need to play D&D, and make it exciting, is in PHB/DMG/MM.
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PBI
post Sep 8 2009, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 8 2009, 02:57 PM) *
Bullshit. D&D is easily playable with solely the Players Handbook. The Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide, while part of the Core Rules, are not neccesary for play.

Shadowrun is similar. The base book is all that is neccesary to play, but the 'expansions' are all Core Rulebooks.



Unfortunately, you are wrong. D&D is not playable without the DMG and MM as those books contain core mechanics of how to adjudicate situations and other game mechanics. IIRC, the DMG doesn't even give instructions on how to create monsters, nor does it list any, so the MM is required as well.

As for SR, if the base book is all that's required, then that is the core book. If the expansions are not required, they are not core books. A core book is one that is required; the SR expansions are not required to play the game. Therefore, the expansions are not core rules.
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Muspellsheimr
post Sep 8 2009, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (PBI @ Sep 8 2009, 12:04 PM) *
Unfortunately, you are wrong. D&D is not playable without the DMG and MM as those books contain core mechanics of how to adjudicate situations and other game mechanics. IIRC, the DMG doesn't even give instructions on how to create monsters, nor does it list any, so the MM is required as well.

The exact same thing applies to Shadowrun as well.

And yes, D&D is very playable with only the Players Handbook. You are working under the assumption that the 'advanced rules' in the DMG, & the creatures in the Monster Manual are required for play.

Incorrect. All neccessary information on character advancment, skills, feats, spellcasting, equipment, species, classes, & combat can be found in the Players Handbook. Everything else can be considered 'optional', because it expands the rules base rather than introducing rules absolutely neccessary for play.


Guess what - the Shadowrun Core Rulebooks (asside from the base book) expand the rules base.


QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 8 2009, 12:03 PM) *
So PHB is fine if all you want to do is play a game where everyone had purely mundane equipment and there's no such things as Ranger companion animals, paladin mounts, or spell caster familiars. Of course I don't admit that 4th edition exists, so who knows what they did with that.

All of which are 'optional' class features, as in you are not required to have a Familiar if you are playing a Wizard.
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StealthSigma
post Sep 8 2009, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 8 2009, 03:24 PM) *
All of which are 'optional' class features, as in you are not required to have a Familiar if you are playing a Wizard.


Saying a familiar, paladin mount, or ranger companion are 'optional' class features is like saying Rage is an 'optional' class feature for barbarians. The paladin mount is the 2nd most iconic ability of the paladin class behind smite evil. The animal companion is the 2nd most iconic ability of rangers behind favored enemy. The familiar is the 2nd most iconic ability for casters behind casting spells. There's no such thing as traps or magic items (thus making use magic device and disable device mostly useless). You can't stat out any race outside of the 7 included in the PHB.

As I said, you can do D&D with just the PHB, but it will be bland and boring and will be unable to touch the topics which the game iconifies (Dungeons and Dragons).

Edit: Druids cannot make use of Wildshape without the Monster Manual as the stats for any for they can assume are only located in the Monster Manual.
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PBI
post Sep 8 2009, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 8 2009, 03:24 PM) *
The exact same thing applies to Shadowrun as well.

And yes, D&D is very playable with only the Players Handbook. You are working under the assumption that the 'advanced rules' in the DMG, & the creatures in the Monster Manual are required for play.


I just realized that you may be assuming that I'm talking about D&D 4E. I was talking about 2nd Edition (and even 3rd).
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 9 2009, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (JTNLANGE @ Sep 8 2009, 11:06 AM) *
While I agree with you I believe you are mistaken on one point. It lists right on Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion that they are core rulebooks. I would say personally the what is listed in those books trumps what is listed in SR4A unless specifically noted.

Trevor.



I WOuld have to agree with this as even SR4A lists these books as ADVANCED RULES expanded from the SR4A BBB...

Keep the Faith
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the_real_elwood
post Sep 9 2009, 01:12 AM
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The newest stuff has the latest errata applied. If there's a conflict between the rules in a newer versus an older book, chances are likely that the errata for the older book fixes it.
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eidolon
post Sep 9 2009, 01:45 AM
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The rules that you like take priority. Period. That's why RPGs are awesome.
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McAllister
post Sep 9 2009, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 8 2009, 09:45 PM) *
The rules that you like take priority. Period. That's why RPGs are awesome.

Thread won. Time to go home, folks, nothing more to see here.
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Cardul
post Sep 9 2009, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE (PBI @ Sep 8 2009, 02:39 PM) *
I just realized that you may be assuming that I'm talking about D&D 4E. I was talking about 2nd Edition (and even 3rd).


You do need the Monstrous Compedia and DMG for 2nd Edition, as the first has the XP for monsters(remember: All XP had to be determined by the MC reference, as it was a later publication that had rules for making your own monsters), and the DMG had the treasure tables.

For third edition, you could get by without the Monster Manual, but the DMG was where the encounter experience tables were.
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Larsine
post Sep 9 2009, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (PBI @ Sep 8 2009, 08:52 PM) *
I get my definiton from 30 years of gaming. And, yes, it does matter. Core implies that something is requied to play, whereas if something is not a core rule, it's not required to play. The classic example of core vs non-core would be D&D, where if a group doesn't have a PHB, DMG, and MM, they can't play. With SR, all that is needed is the main book; all the mechanics are in there and nothing else is needed to play. The other books are expansions. They add to the flavour and experience of the game, but a group can play SR just fine if they don't have the expansions. The reverse is not true.


I managed to play Call of Cthulhu for 15 years before buying the rulebook. All I had was a character sheet and some scenarios from various conventions.

Since I could play the game without the rulebook, does it mean CoC doesn't have any core books?

I think you are trying to define "Core", and there will always be those that oppose you, or have a better/worse/different definition, with or without proof.

Lars
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Dragnar
post Sep 9 2009, 08:16 PM
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Core books are whatever books are defined as "core" in the system in question. No more, no less. The distinction has always been a vague one and it got even blurrier in the last decade. Most RPGs define "core" as the single main book only. Shadowrun traditionally did so as well. D&D 3rd Ed. had it defined as PHB, DMG and MM. D&D 4th Ed. defines everything that isn't a campaign setting as "core", even stuff like divine power or the PHB2 (really, just take a look at their website).

There's no way to generally define, what a "core book" is, because that's different, depending on which system you're looking at, so the discussion is moot anyway.
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Ravor
post Sep 11 2009, 02:58 AM
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Meh, personally I figure that Shadowrun 4.5 overrides the older "advanced" books since it is the newest book out and I expect some hefty errata to be issued to correct the various incompatablities ... of course I also expect to be heavily disappointed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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