After seeing some of the threads in here I have one very important question. Do the rules presented in the core books override the main rulebook? I was thinking of the Medkit rules. In Augmentation it states that you can heal total boxes based on skill or medkit which ever is higher. It does not mention this in SR4A. So which is right? Anything from the devs would be appreciated.


Trevor L.

It is a general axiom of gaming and rules sets that later books trump earlier ones unless otherwise specified. Some rules sets explicitly state this (and the SR expansion rules of the varying types have traditionally done so) while others assume the gamer reading the rules understands that expansions modify the core rules.

Also, as a bit of an aside, the term "core" usually refers to the initial book released and anything following that are expansions. In the case of D&D, for example, the core rules consist of 3 books (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual), whereas in Shadowrun, the core rules consist of a single book (with the title "Shadowrun"). Keeping with Shadowrun, Arsenal, for example, is not a core book, but an expansion, as are any of the multitude of the other books dealing with rigging, magic, gear, etc.

While I agree with you I believe you are mistaken on one point. It lists right on Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion that they are core rulebooks. I would say personally the what is listed in those books trumps what is listed in SR4A unless specifically noted.

Trevor.

Are these books required to play Shadowrun? No.

They are not core books. A core book is only those required to play the game. Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion, and Street Magic are not required to play Shadowrun. All you need is one copy of the book titled Shadowrun.

Your are correct Stealth. I was simply stating that the books say they are core. While you do not need them to play, if you use them I consider them core.

Trevor.

Those books are not required to play Shadowrumn, so they aren't core books. If they were labelled as core books, then they were mis-labelled. Some players might consider them to be core books, but the only true core book is SR*.

Where this gets particularly muddy, however, is that SR4A has been marketed as "fully compatible with all Shadowrun, Fourth Edition books," or as the website puts it in one of the blogposts, "Never has a core rulebook been so fully meshed with its full line of expansion rulebooks". From these statements it's easy to infer that CGL's intent was to only have SR4A supersede basic rules, and leave the expansion rulebooks to remain the source for advanced rules.

This approach breaks down, however, unless you have a copy of the original SR4 to know what the original basic rules being that are now being superseded were in the first place. In the case of medkits, the base rule is unchanged from SR4 to SR4A: "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s rating." What appears in Augmentation is merely a clarification of how this rule is to be applied with regards to medkits that can either substitute for that skill or add dice to the test. While some advanced rules from the expansion books were considered to be significant enough departures from the basic rules that simplified forms of them were rolled into SR4A (e.g. the new magical skills introduced in Street Magic, and the concept of Processor Limit from Unwired, among others) this clarification from Augmentation wasn't one of them.

Medkits aren't the only example though where SR4A's meshing with the expansion books has left some questions. Cracking copy protection is another one. SR4 originally stated that cracking copy protection was a Software + Logic extended test with an interval of 1 hour, and gave a vague range of thresholds. Unwired gave a table of specific thresholds, and referenced back to the core rulebook for the rest of the rules. The new SR4A core rulebook declares cracking copy protection to be an advanced rule that can be found in Unwired.

To be fair, Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Runner's Companion, and I suspect the catalyst reprinting of Street Magic all say that the book is a core book right on the title. This is because Catalyst uses a differing definition of "Core" than Wizards of the Coast.

The fact is, only the BBB is required to play, but the other books should be considered the authority in their proper field, they where made later and made to be more specific.

That said, all content from any book is as optional as you wish.

CGL can call their books flagglesporks if they want, but they can't change the definition of what a core book is and is not. Convention and custom and practice all define "core" to mean "that which is required to play". The expansions may be highly recommended (in some cases very highly recommended), but that doesn't make them core books unless the rules are changed sufficiently that the game is unplayable without them.

Where does the definition of core you're using come from? Does it really matter what the books are called, or whether core means this or that? All that matters is that only the BBB is required to play, that the other books are taken by Catalyst to be just as important, and that any given GM can basically say 'screw that' with any given information and make up their own shit.

You're actually arguing in favour of what I'm saying Bug.

I get my definiton from 30 years of gaming. And, yes, it does matter. Core implies that something is requied to play, whereas if something is not a core rule, it's not required to play. The classic example of core vs non-core would be D&D, where if a group doesn't have a PHB, DMG, and MM, they can't play. With SR, all that is needed is the main book; all the mechanics are in there and nothing else is needed to play. The other books are expansions. They add to the flavour and experience of the game, but a group can play SR just fine if they don't have the expansions. The reverse is not true.

Bullshit. D&D is easily playable with solely the Players Handbook. The Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide, while part of the Core Rules, are not neccesary for play.

Shadowrun is similar. The base book is all that is neccesary to play, but the 'expansions' are all Core Rulebooks.

You need at least the PHB and MM. Otherwise you cannot play Sorcerers/Wizards since the statistics for their familiars are found in the Monster Manual.

So PHB is fine if all you want to do is play a game where everyone had purely mundane equipment and there's no such things as Ranger companion animals, paladin mounts, or spell caster familiars. Of course I don't admit that 4th edition exists, so who knows what they did with that.

Everything you need to play Shadowrun, and make it exciting, is in SR4. Everything you need to play D&D, and make it exciting, is in PHB/DMG/MM.

Unfortunately, you are wrong. D&D is not playable without the DMG and MM as those books contain core mechanics of how to adjudicate situations and other game mechanics. IIRC, the DMG doesn't even give instructions on how to create monsters, nor does it list any, so the MM is required as well.

As for SR, if the base book is all that's required, then that is the core book. If the expansions are not required, they are not core books. A core book is one that is required; the SR expansions are not required to play the game. Therefore, the expansions are not core rules.

The exact same thing applies to Shadowrun as well.

And yes, D&D is very playable with only the Players Handbook. You are working under the assumption that the 'advanced rules' in the DMG, & the creatures in the Monster Manual are required for play.

Incorrect. All neccessary information on character advancment, skills, feats, spellcasting, equipment, species, classes, & combat can be found in the Players Handbook. Everything else can be considered 'optional', because it expands the rules base rather than introducing rules absolutely neccessary for play.


Guess what - the Shadowrun Core Rulebooks (asside from the base book) expand the rules base.



All of which are 'optional' class features, as in you are not required to have a Familiar if you are playing a Wizard.

Saying a familiar, paladin mount, or ranger companion are 'optional' class features is like saying Rage is an 'optional' class feature for barbarians. The paladin mount is the 2nd most iconic ability of the paladin class behind smite evil. The animal companion is the 2nd most iconic ability of rangers behind favored enemy. The familiar is the 2nd most iconic ability for casters behind casting spells. There's no such thing as traps or magic items (thus making use magic device and disable device mostly useless). You can't stat out any race outside of the 7 included in the PHB.

As I said, you can do D&D with just the PHB, but it will be bland and boring and will be unable to touch the topics which the game iconifies (Dungeons and Dragons).

Edit: Druids cannot make use of Wildshape without the Monster Manual as the stats for any for they can assume are only located in the Monster Manual.

I just realized that you may be assuming that I'm talking about D&D 4E. I was talking about 2nd Edition (and even 3rd).

I WOuld have to agree with this as even SR4A lists these books as ADVANCED RULES expanded from the SR4A BBB...

Keep the Faith

The newest stuff has the latest errata applied. If there's a conflict between the rules in a newer versus an older book, chances are likely that the errata for the older book fixes it.

The rules that you like take priority. Period. That's why RPGs are awesome.

Thread won. Time to go home, folks, nothing more to see here.

You do need the Monstrous Compedia and DMG for 2nd Edition, as the first has the XP for monsters(remember: All XP had to be determined by the MC reference, as it was a later publication that had rules for making your own monsters), and the DMG had the treasure tables.

For third edition, you could get by without the Monster Manual, but the DMG was where the encounter experience tables were.

I managed to play Call of Cthulhu for 15 years before buying the rulebook. All I had was a character sheet and some scenarios from various conventions.

Since I could play the game without the rulebook, does it mean CoC doesn't have any core books?

I think you are trying to define "Core", and there will always be those that oppose you, or have a better/worse/different definition, with or without proof.

Lars

Core books are whatever books are defined as "core" in the system in question. No more, no less. The distinction has always been a vague one and it got even blurrier in the last decade. Most RPGs define "core" as the single main book only. Shadowrun traditionally did so as well. D&D 3rd Ed. had it defined as PHB, DMG and MM. D&D 4th Ed. defines everything that isn't a campaign setting as "core", even stuff like divine power or the PHB2 (really, just take a look at their website).

There's no way to generally define, what a "core book" is, because that's different, depending on which system you're looking at, so the discussion is moot anyway.

Meh, personally I figure that Shadowrun 4.5 overrides the older "advanced" books since it is the newest book out and I expect some hefty errata to be issued to correct the various incompatablities ... of course I also expect to be heavily disappointed.

According to the Anniversary Edition, the remaining CORE books are still Advanced Rules... I do not see a lot of additional errata over what has already been presented for each book in question...

Sure, and I'd expect them to still be listed as such, after all, it's not as if they are going to be completely rewritten as THE Core book was. However with that said, new errata is needed to bring them in line with Fourth Edition 4.5.

Agreed, There are a few places where errata would be appreciated...

Aye, but I think that we disagree on the following issue, when the books disagree, I think that Fourth Edition 2.0 should be considered the better source until we get some serious errata that brings the books back into line with each other.

This thread is the latest in an increasingly frequent number of posts that lead me to say:

"Wow. Just ... wow."

What a load of hooey. I've run interesting and exciting games of D&D using nothing but the PHB. Granted, this was just recently, with 4e, which places most of the rules in the PHB. And we certainly hit upon what iconic bits 4e offers us (I'm of the opinion that it's not really iconic D&D, but that's another topic).

Bland and boring? I don't think so.

As for the 4.5 rulebook, it's a very complete core ruleset. Still, the rule-of-thumb is that specific-case rules trump general ones, so I'd go with the advanced books for the final word. For example, the general rule is that you can have no more than 4 initiative passes. Unwired makes it so you can have 5. Specific rule wins.

This is all about subjective taste. Like Cain I could make an RPG work with just a glance at the cover of a book. Other people like more. There is no wrong as long as you're having fun.

OK, you've gotten me curious, how so pbangarth?

Well, in the case of this thread I am amazed at the level of minutia that can elicit deep and heated discussion. The meaning of 'core' and to which books it applies, whether it is written on the books or not, seems really important to some.

Maybe I just don't understand.

They're supposed to be releasing updated SR4a errata for ALL the specialty books.

Until then, as far as I'm concerned, SR4a overrides them all as it is the newest.

Certainly your perrogative... I am however going to use the Indicators IN SR4A that the other core books are the Advanced Rules and use them as such...

Keep the Faith...

Tymeaus:
Really the only one I think there is a problem with is Unwired. Not only is it the weakest of the specialty books.

But they turned around and redid the matrix again in SR4a... so the foundation got torn up.

In Street Magic, some of the karma costs are off now. (EG: optional rule for buying adept powers as metamagics... 15 karma was equiv to mag5 before, now it's only equiv to mag3). RC == karmagen reportedly has large changes coming, augmentation == nothing's really changed (except that they never put an errata out for it in the first place!!), Arsenal == new sensor rules in SR4a, and again matrix section changes can affect drones.

No Arguments that updates/errata will be needed, but even the Anniversary Edition touts them as Advanced Rules, and gives the changes that are affected for most things that are an issue...

No worries though, I am sure they will eventually get to it at some point...

Keep the Faith...

I didn't really think that SR4A did much to hurt Unwired. Most of the prattling on in Unwired is theory and concept, high level stuff. Ideas.

eidolon:
I feel that Unwired badly suffers from a 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing' problem. Especially when you start hitting things like fine details.

SR4a didn't completely redo the matrix, but that section out of all of them saw the most substantial changes. So while the high level ideas are there, there's a LOT of room for clarification. If you like ambiguity as a GM, that's good. If you like a bit of certainty that 2+2==4 as a player, not so much. (I also admit, I've been doing theorycrafting in this area, as I've been wanting to try out playing a decker, but haven't had the chance).

And as such the rules seem to be a bit disconnected. A lot of the items in it are nice in isolation, but when you start mixing them up too much it gets bad. Then you get stuff like people coming out of chargen w/ full rating 6 cracked software suites (w/ program options) for a song and a little bit of lifestyle upkeep.

I think that's where a lot of these discussions go wrong. So many gaming conversations on the internet, and I'm just as guilty as anyone, are based solely on reading the books and conducting thought exercises.

For example, you're bothered that everyone can just start out with all R6 programs for just a little money. But in my experience, most dedicated hacker types start with all R6 progs anyway, even if you're just using core. So has anything changed? Not really. A player that wants to spend the BP to get and spend the ¥? More power to them, it's BP they didn't spend elsewhere. They get them with the rules in UW? Hey, I'm glad they actually bothered to read a book.

This...

Then why even bother w/ lower grade programs.

Seriously. If it's trivial to have rating 6, optomized, ergonomic programs for a bit of upkeep. Especially for the run of the mill, non-hacking ones like edit.

The problem isn't that they spent points on it, it's that the cost is so low, and the drawbacks so slight, and advantages so good compared to paying 10x as much to buy the things. (audit logs make cracked software practically mandatory). One of the major changes in Unwired is that it basically slashes all software costs by 90%.

You're talking about the difference between coming out of chargen w/ a full suite of software and little else. Or coming out of chargen w/ the ALL the programs AND a fleet of drones/top flight cyber.



It's one thing to wave someone off for theorycrafting (I have had a chance to play a decker prior to 4a), it's quite another to make a cogent counter-argument. Also the read a book crack shows a pretty low opinion of the target market as well I'd say.

Because the Average person is never going to obtain illegal software in the Shadowrun Universe, and lower rated programs fill a niche that is there, where people cannot afford Cutting Edge Software, especially when a lesser rated program will do... When is the last time you payed 6000 USD for a Cutting Edge Office Suite? Even at 600+ for a Cracked Version... Most people do not do this, it is a vast waste of money for very little gain...

However, for those individuals that live and die by their software (those Hackers in Shadowrun), they will beg, borrow, steal and even code their own software if it will give them an edge... Remember, the Legitimate Spiders of the Megacorps are using Legal (as in Non-Cracked, Production) Programs, probably with very little in the way of uber-modifications on them, as that is what the Corps provide for them...

Keep the Faith...

First off, I misread a bit of that earlier. Well fuck, misread part of it and half-ass replied anyway. You guys'll have to cut me a bit of slack if you can, I'm got some shit going on that's keeping me, well, stressed out and not always entirely with it. My bad.

To more properly reply, I don't have a problem with characters starting out with R6 stuff because it costs a buttload of their BPs in cash. That is still correct.

The reason that I don't have the problem of them starting out with R6 everything for a penny-on-the-nuyen is because I don't allow the purchase of pirated software at chargen. I could go on about why, but nobody really cares and you'd just argue with me anyway.



As an aside, what do I care about "target markets?" I'm not talking about some random sample of people, I'm speaking from the experience that comes from having run and played games for over a decade. I have known a lot of people that couldn't be arsed to actually crack a book and learn the game; not just the three pages that they need to build a character, but the world, setting, fluff, and hey, even the rules so I don't have to tell them what to do every ten minutes.

I've had a lot of great players that did like to read the books. I've also played with a lot of casual gamers that don't.